We need new requirements for veteran dungeon DDs
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.
The dungeons themselves require a dps check.
And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.
Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.
The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.
If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
No. I won't. Because pushing all the competent people out of the queue shouldn't be the end goal. We already have a CP requirement because zos agrees this was unfair to everyone else. So I'll keep hoping for the removal or reduction to 160 for the cp requirement and instead a dps check.
Anyone who cannot possibly do their fair share shouldn't be there.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.
The dungeons themselves require a dps check.
And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.
Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.
The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.
If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
and leave someone else in that place wanting to run vet pledges but having noone to run with and so being left randomly for people unable to run on their own dung for which they queued
What? Anyone can queue... that is one of the things pugs are for... so people who may not have a lot of friends or be in a guild can still run the dungeons.
How does telling players that have strict requirements to form their own groups stop anyone else from queueing? Unlike telling them they can't queue unless they pass a 'test'.Edited by SilverBride on June 15, 2021 10:37PMPCNA2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
No. I won't. Because pushing all the competent people out of the queue shouldn't be the end goal. We already have a CP requirement because zos agrees this was unfair to everyone else. So I'll keep hoping for the removal or reduction to 160 for the cp requirement and instead a dps check.
Anyone who cannot possibly do their fair share shouldn't be there.
PUGs are for everyone. It is a simple enough solution for players who have strict requirements to just form their own groups. But no one has the right to block anyone else from content they wish to enjoy.Edited by SilverBride on June 15, 2021 10:47PMPCNA1 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »No, this is elitist af
How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?
The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.
And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.
The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.
I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.
Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.
This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.
Yup you nailed it, the exact same people who are ruining the daily random queues by speed running for daily rewards are the same people trying to gatekeep the vet dungeons. 3 years ago daily pledges/randoms were just fine everyone was helpful and always at least 2 people who would take the time to teach newbies. But last year or 2 these dummy humpers, who queue as fake tank/healer to do speed runs have literally destroyed the original 'TEACHING' mechanism that existed in DF. Now ALL New DPS have no clue so it is no wonder they can't do mechanics and their DPS is bad.
But the same people on youtube or forum just keep saying change gear and hump dummies and everything will work out. Nothing in game should ever be required to parse a dummy to do, but it would make some sense to only allow someone to enter a VET dungeon ONLY after they do it like 3 times on Normal. I think you should have to keep the same ROLE too, for instance if you fake tank a normal dungeon 3 times that would not allow you to do same dungeon on vet as DD, you would have to do DD on normal 3 times to get to do Vet. This would maybe reduce fake tank/healer and definitely at least let players do the dungeon a few times before trying vet.
Even worse are the speed runners that don’t care if someone is looking for equipment from the dungeon. Happened in one of my tendons today, before one player could finish typing “LF Medusa lightning staff” a couple players were already past the first pull and inside the actual dungeon. I told the guy looking for the staff to stick with me and we will chest hunt.
The two yahoo’s missed every single chest on the run and basically duoed the whole dungeon while myself and the farmer picked up 4 chests, no staff for him unfortunately but I showed him all the possible spawns for future runs. Had the other two just waited 30 seconds maybe we could have pulled the staff from their drops. I mean the dungeon literally takes 2 minutes longer if you stop for chests making the run 8 minutes instead of 6 🤣1 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The people claiming "the dps shouldn't have to go through another player's requirements" are completely ignoring that they are NOT another player's requirements. They are the game's requirements.
The dungeons themselves require a dps check.
And nobody is entitled to be carried. Nobody should be forced to pick up your slack because you want to leech.
Normal mode is for all players. Veteran mode should be for people who are veterans. It's on the title.
The dps requirements on these dungeons isn't even high. Nobody should listen to the guy who wants to set the req at something so high they can skip mechs. But asking you not to be a leech shouldn't be some unreasonable request either.
If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
and leave someone else in that place wanting to run vet pledges but having noone to run with and so being left randomly for people unable to run on their own dung for which they queued
What? Anyone can queue... that is one of the things pugs are for... so people who may not have a lot of friends or be in a guild can still run the dungeons.
How does telling players that have strict requirements to form their own groups stop anyone else from queueing? Unlike telling them they can't queue unless they pass a 'test'.
yes anyone can queue but why queue for content which sure you are not ready? idk, no lvl, gear, enough experience for this? or even no willing to become a better player but just queue for content you are definitelly not ready and expecting you get carried everytime, if kicked then queue again and again till you get lucky for not being kicked just so other can carry your laziness/ignorance
Im not against bad, still learning players in dung as long they are able to fulfill their role even on this minimum so they wont be totally carried but Im against these people who just queue for sund and are unable to fulfill their role doesnt matter how much other teammetes will be able to help, explain if even this player will be willing to try it as in most cases these not ready player dont even care for their teammates or even to read chat and respond anything
Im not going to willingly carry this type of player1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »No, this is elitist af
How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?
The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.
And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.
The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.
I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.
Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.
This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.
Yup you nailed it, the exact same people who are ruining the daily random queues by speed running for daily rewards are the same people trying to gatekeep the vet dungeons. 3 years ago daily pledges/randoms were just fine everyone was helpful and always at least 2 people who would take the time to teach newbies. But last year or 2 these dummy humpers, who queue as fake tank/healer to do speed runs have literally destroyed the original 'TEACHING' mechanism that existed in DF. Now ALL New DPS have no clue so it is no wonder they can't do mechanics and their DPS is bad.
But the same people on youtube or forum just keep saying change gear and hump dummies and everything will work out. Nothing in game should ever be required to parse a dummy to do, but it would make some sense to only allow someone to enter a VET dungeon ONLY after they do it like 3 times on Normal. I think you should have to keep the same ROLE too, for instance if you fake tank a normal dungeon 3 times that would not allow you to do same dungeon on vet as DD, you would have to do DD on normal 3 times to get to do Vet. This would maybe reduce fake tank/healer and definitely at least let players do the dungeon a few times before trying vet.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »No, this is elitist af
How is someone ever supposed to improve their rotation and DPS output if they aren't even allowed into the dungeons in the first place?
The biggest source of improvement for me in this game, whether it is tanking (tank is my main), DPS rotations, or healing, has all been from being in dungeons and failing, and being able to learn *why* I failed and how to improve.
And not just learning through "oh someone told me to wear x / y sets instead of a / b so I have better damage now because I'm meta", but because I learned through experience what was working, what wasn't working. Even to this day I notice improvements in my gameplay, because I notice little things here or there that I can do better that make me better in my roles. I'm still not an elite DPS'er by any means, but I can crank out about 40% of the damage in a vet DLC run - a little bit less if I'm paired with an actually elite DPS player.
The biggest problem in dungeons isn't people who do low DPS, it's people who don't know mechanics. And not just people who don't know mechanics, because we all need to start and learn somewhere. But people who don't want to even *learn* the mechanics.
I did a run of vSCP last night with a guild member. I was tank, he was healer. We were paired with 2 DPS who actually were doing solid damage, but had absolutely zero concept of the mechanics. We wiped multiple times through each boss, and even with me trying to guide them through mechanics in chat, they weren't paying attention and making the same mistakes over and over again. We finally did get to the final boss, and no matter how many times I explained to them that they needed to kill the ice statues, they wouldn't do it. They kept focusing on the boss, and we kept wiping. Their attitude when I tried to explain mechanics was snarky and juvenile, so eventually my guildie and I decided to dip out, as we weren't gonna get anywhere.
Which sucks, because I'm trying to get that damn style page.
This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled request for meta min-maxers to gate-keep content exclusively for themselves, and keep everyone else out. The same min-maxer segment of the population that then wants to go into normal content and blow through it without allowing newer players to learn the content. Stop gate-keeping. The game doesn't belong to you.
Yup you nailed it, the exact same people who are ruining the daily random queues by speed running for daily rewards are the same people trying to gatekeep the vet dungeons. 3 years ago daily pledges/randoms were just fine everyone was helpful and always at least 2 people who would take the time to teach newbies. But last year or 2 these dummy humpers, who queue as fake tank/healer to do speed runs have literally destroyed the original 'TEACHING' mechanism that existed in DF. Now ALL New DPS have no clue so it is no wonder they can't do mechanics and their DPS is bad.
But the same people on youtube or forum just keep saying change gear and hump dummies and everything will work out. Nothing in game should ever be required to parse a dummy to do, but it would make some sense to only allow someone to enter a VET dungeon ONLY after they do it like 3 times on Normal. I think you should have to keep the same ROLE too, for instance if you fake tank a normal dungeon 3 times that would not allow you to do same dungeon on vet as DD, you would have to do DD on normal 3 times to get to do Vet. This would maybe reduce fake tank/healer and definitely at least let players do the dungeon a few times before trying vet.
Even worse are the speed runners that don’t care if someone is looking for equipment from the dungeon. Happened in one of my tendons today, before one player could finish typing “LF Medusa lightning staff” a couple players were already past the first pull and inside the actual dungeon. I told the guy looking for the staff to stick with me and we will chest hunt.
The two yahoo’s missed every single chest on the run and basically duoed the whole dungeon while myself and the farmer picked up 4 chests, no staff for him unfortunately but I showed him all the possible spawns for future runs. Had the other two just waited 30 seconds maybe we could have pulled the staff from their drops. I mean the dungeon literally takes 2 minutes longer if you stop for chests making the run 8 minutes instead of 6 🤣
Yup that almost identical thing happened to my a few months back. You always know who will be a problem when the only think they say is 'anyone find medusa inferno give it to me'. Then they proceed to speed run past everything, funny thing is I found my second medusa inferno right above the waterfall after 2 dummies already jumped over, not that they would have gotten it too but they did that on the whole thing.Funny thing was the dude asked if anyone had staff and I would have been more than happy to give it to him if he wasn't speedrunning, and making my job as tank much harder, but I said NOPE. BTW I found 4 chests in that run and I also found a MASTER chest AFTER the boss was dead on the stairway, where 2 speed runner had already left dungeon.0 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
No. I won't. Because pushing all the competent people out of the queue shouldn't be the end goal. We already have a CP requirement because zos agrees this was unfair to everyone else. So I'll keep hoping for the removal or reduction to 160 for the cp requirement and instead a dps check.
Anyone who cannot possibly do their fair share shouldn't be there.
PUGs are for everyone. It is a simple enough solution for players who have strict requirements to just form their own groups. But no one has the right to block anyone else from content they wish to enjoy.
from content they which for enjoy but are not ready to be able themselves for this content? this is only making them as ball on chain for teammates, disrespecing them
this 1 player want to anjoy this content, ok..but what about 3 other players? they msotly will be alsop randoms for eachother and they also want to enjoy this content but so they will be punished to run this content without joy if they (even single player) choose to carry this type of player which contribute literally nothing to this group
why joy of 1 bad player not ready for this content should have this privilage to be carried at cost of joy other 3 players? this is what I understand from your words2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »What? Anyone can queue... that is one of the things pugs are for... so people who may not have a lot of friends or be in a guild can still run the dungeons.
How does telling players that have strict requirements to form their own groups stop anyone else from queueing? Unlike telling them they can't queue unless they pass a 'test'.
yes anyone can queue but why queue for content which sure you are not ready? idk, no lvl, gear, enough experience for this? or even no willing to become a better player but just queue for content you are definitelly not ready and expecting you get carried everytime, if kicked then queue again and again till you get lucky for not being kicked just so other can carry your laziness/ignorance
Im not against bad, still learning players in dung as long they are able to fulfill their role even on this minimum so they wont be totally carried but Im against these people who just queue for sund and are unable to fulfill their role doesnt matter how much other teammetes will be able to help, explain if even this player will be willing to try it as in most cases these not ready player dont even care for their teammates or even to read chat and respond anything
Im not going to willingly carry this type of player
And how are they supposed to learn if not by doing?
And we are talking about PUGs here. PUGs are not going to have the same mix of skills as player made groups, nor should they be expected to. If players who are not able to pass a dps test are blocked from queueing, how are they going to get the experience, and gear, they need to better themselves and be able to contribute more?
This is why players who don't want to deal with less experienced players should be forming their own groups. Because a PUG is for everyone, and when you queue for one it's a crapshoot. You get what you get. And that should not be changed.PCNA1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »It is completely unfair to make any player go through any kind of proof to queue for a random group. If you want these requirements for your own private group, then that is your prerogative. But you cannot force your standards on everyone else. No one should be locked out of any content because another player thinks they should.
Something has to exist to at the very least help them understand what they're truly walking into. I've had people turned away from dungeons cause they had such a horrible experience they never want to go back, and it varies from their own performance all the way to other people's performance.
You think it's unfair, but I see it as helping them. The only way for people to improve is to be lifted to a higher standard and given the tools and knowledge to meet it. If you want this hard little "trial" can be an advanced tutorial to prepare the players for the kind of content they're trying to enter. Make it based on role to with NPCs capable of performing their own roles while you learn yours, and then have the DPS tutorial include a basic 20k DPS check. Any slapdash build with proper rotation and game knowledge can perform that on a Trial dummy.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »What? Anyone can queue... that is one of the things pugs are for... so people who may not have a lot of friends or be in a guild can still run the dungeons.
How does telling players that have strict requirements to form their own groups stop anyone else from queueing? Unlike telling them they can't queue unless they pass a 'test'.
yes anyone can queue but why queue for content which sure you are not ready? idk, no lvl, gear, enough experience for this? or even no willing to become a better player but just queue for content you are definitelly not ready and expecting you get carried everytime, if kicked then queue again and again till you get lucky for not being kicked just so other can carry your laziness/ignorance
Im not against bad, still learning players in dung as long they are able to fulfill their role even on this minimum so they wont be totally carried but Im against these people who just queue for sund and are unable to fulfill their role doesnt matter how much other teammetes will be able to help, explain if even this player will be willing to try it as in most cases these not ready player dont even care for their teammates or even to read chat and respond anything
Im not going to willingly carry this type of player
And how are they supposed to learn if not by doing?
And we are talking about PUGs here. PUGs are not going to have the same mix of skills as player made groups, nor should they be expected to. If players who are not able to pass a dps test are blocked from queueing, how are they going to get the experience, and gear, they need to better themselves and be able to contribute more?
This is why players who don't want to deal with less experienced players should be forming their own groups. Because a PUG is for everyone, and when you queue for one it's a crapshoot. You get what you get. And that should not be changed.
where they are supposed to learn? on content they are able to run or read something about this game, role they want to perform
thats not like literally every was constently running content they wasnt able themsleves to run - if theya re not able and getting carried then they wont learn to much as they wont even have occassion or being pointed most important what they are missing or doing wrong
learn from hard enough content for you but able to run rather than running to hard content youa re unable to do and leanr close to nothing becasue you wont even know how it works
like for example dps - for endgame tials progressing, like for godslayer for example - will you be learning your dps rotatin in trial while progressing while rest of they group know it enough to be able to complete it in borderline but you will be this weakest link, the only person not metting this minimum? or will this group rather take someone else knowing already his job or even dont try to run it becasue they will know you wont be able to fulfill yoour role and be jsut ball on the chain here
so will you try with force to get to this group with sure you with group wont be able to pass this or will you go learn your rotation on dps dummy or maybe hard dung which dont need 11 other players to struggle with you but only 3 which might be willing to help you while others wont have time for this?
are you going to learn your role in group dung with steps, with time neede for that or will you go with force from floor lvl into ceiling lvl instantly while having only floor exp and so demanding players from this ceiling to help/carry you if they dont want, dont have time for this as they already maked themselves to this lvl, do they must, have special job to waste their for someone from floor pushing with force to ceiling?
they might want o help someone from floor but definitelly not at ceiling lvl content which already have its on these minimum requirments to be done which someone from floor wont have0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You think it's unfair, but I see it as helping them. The only way for people to improve is to be lifted to a higher standard and given the tools and knowledge to meet it. If you want this hard little "trial" can be an advanced tutorial to prepare the players for the kind of content they're trying to enter. Make it based on role to with NPCs capable of performing their own roles while you learn yours, and then have the DPS tutorial include a basic 20k DPS check. Any slapdash build with proper rotation and game knowledge can perform that on a Trial dummy.
Helping them by blocking them from content? That is not only unfair, it is punitive and elitist and there is too much of that now.
Just make your own groups. Problem solved.Edited by SilverBride on June 15, 2021 11:25PMPCNA2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am not sure how that could ever be implemented. A player can have the perfect gear with the perfect skills on their bar but be quite hopeless because they just mash their keys, or they don't pay attention to whether they should be focusing the boss or the trash, or because they are wasting all their DPS on a boss when he is impervious.
I just don't think raw numbers even begin to tell the whole story.
So WoW used to do attunement for raids, where you had to finish a questline just to be able to enter the raid instance.
ESO can introduce something similar, where dungeons are locked until you finish a questline. And the quests walk you through individual aspects of combat: light attack weaving, prebuffing, debuffing enemies, rolling, blocking, etc. They can do quests for each things, and then a few "encounters", with one "final encounter" as the last part of the questline. The final encounter can be a mini boss with adds, and it tests everything you just learned, and is a mini DPS check as well as a mechanics check.
People who finish the quest line, get a DPS rating, and some rewards, maybe a title, mount, etc. But they also unlock Vet dungeons, and maybe the requirement is something like 20k or 30k DPS.0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »You think it's unfair, but I see it as helping them. The only way for people to improve is to be lifted to a higher standard and given the tools and knowledge to meet it. If you want this hard little "trial" can be an advanced tutorial to prepare the players for the kind of content they're trying to enter. Make it based on role to with NPCs capable of performing their own roles while you learn yours, and then have the DPS tutorial include a basic 20k DPS check. Any slapdash build with proper rotation and game knowledge can perform that on a Trial dummy.
Helping them by blocking them from content? That is not only unfair, it is punitive and elitist and there is too much of that now.
Just make your own groups. Problem solved.
You missed the point and I won't argue with you for long. You can get into the content once you finish the tutorial. Get better, beat the tutorial, and enter the content. I'm not barring anyone from anything, but instead giving them a challenge to aim for so that when they succeed they'll be that much better and more powerful for it.
I want everyone in ESO to hit the 100k+ DPS, to heal 11 other people and support them, and to tank vCR+3 with little effort. I want everyone to be the best of the best, and in order for that to happen I refuse to hold their hand.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »You think it's unfair, but I see it as helping them. The only way for people to improve is to be lifted to a higher standard and given the tools and knowledge to meet it. If you want this hard little "trial" can be an advanced tutorial to prepare the players for the kind of content they're trying to enter. Make it based on role to with NPCs capable of performing their own roles while you learn yours, and then have the DPS tutorial include a basic 20k DPS check. Any slapdash build with proper rotation and game knowledge can perform that on a Trial dummy.
Helping them by blocking them from content? That is not only unfair, it is punitive and elitist and there is too much of that now.
Just make your own groups. Problem solved.
blocking from content the are not ready yet for
if you ahve played ESO in early day befor tamriel unlimited you had like this just basic zones - you needed to have high enough lvl to be able to go through specific zone because simple weakst mobs coudl 1shot you with their LA if you entered here with to low lvl
that how will be this gating - once you reach this minimum then sure, you are welcomed here
as why to enter to content you will do nothing? by doing nothing you will learn nothing so then why to be wasted spot fo rest of the group? they could be literally 3 in group out of 4 here and this would make no difference for them in difficulty of this content, so why not be able to get someone else from finder who will actually be able to perform this minimum and make this bit of difference for group?3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just make your own groups and stop trying to exclude others. There is absolutely no reason not to. None.Edited by SilverBride on June 15, 2021 11:33PMPCNA0 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Just make your own groups and stop trying to exclude others. There is absolutely no reason not to. None.
and there is no reason not to form own group of begginer player to try with full group content they are unable to do, they might learn something here if each of them wont be carried in this content by rest of the group so they trigger threads like this by and endgame player and mid player who are still learning game but are not floor anymore to not fulfill their role in harder conent and yet hold back in place becasue of less experienced player, not ready for this content than them
theill will be able to do this minimum, if groupted together with will go throught this not mention about being grouped with better player, but get group with worse playerd than them and they twont make this group go through this content because of this single not ready for this player holding them here1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Just make your own groups and stop trying to exclude others. There is absolutely no reason not to. None.
I care about the PUGs, SilverBride. I make my own groups and do my own content. Heck, I can even solo some of the dungeons in this game on veteran!
When I do enter the queue I queue a healer because I can buff the entire group's DPS, while also doing DPS myself and keeping them alive. If I get good DPS we sail through the content, but if I get bad DPS it's not a train wreck. If there was no problem with the DPS in random queues threads like this wouldn't exist, but there are and something needs to be done. You might not like it, but whether this action is a tutorial, a trial, or a warning in big bold red letters telling them of the risk we'll continue to have these threads popping up.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK4 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Just make your own groups and stop trying to exclude others. There is absolutely no reason not to. None.
and there is no reason not to form own group of begginer player to try with full group content they are unable to do, they might learn something here if each of them wont be carried in this content by rest of the group
There is very good reason. They need to run with experienced players to learn. They aren't going to learn from other new players who don't know any more than they do. They need the mix of skill levels that PUGs provide.PCNA0 -
iksde✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Just make your own groups and stop trying to exclude others. There is absolutely no reason not to. None.
and there is no reason not to form own group of begginer player to try with full group content they are unable to do, they might learn something here if each of them wont be carried in this content by rest of the group
There is very good reason. They need to run with experienced players to learn. They aren't going to learn from other new players who don't know any more than they do. They need the mix of skill levels that PUGs provide.
they wont learn anything from run with experienced players when they will be melting bosses, trash pack without mechanics
and there is more experienced players if they choose PUG they wont care to much to bother with so bad players not ready for dung they queued - they will just see how this players is underperforming and they will just say it and kick or kick without even saying
you might somtime get this exp player willing to explain if they will se underperforming this player but all they can do is jsut say, explain what to use, how something works, they wont magically make this underperfming player good enough for this which will end up with kick anyway - still not completed dung for underperforming player and time wasted for rest group member
but if going to easier dung, hard enoguh for you but able to complete with similiar exp group member you might learn mechanics, you might want to improve yourself to be able complete this content more efficient on your own hand and later try something harder
but with most of players like this if they go for any dung able to be rushed by rest of group members they wont see they are in bad state themselves in compare to rest, they will jsut see group was capable with him to rush this dung so he might be fine as he is so no need to try for more improvements and then surprise when next time he wont get so great group able to rush dung with his skill level 0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just make your own groups... then you can flex your egos and exclude anyone you want from them. But leave PUGs alone.
I'm out.PCNA2 -
iksde✭✭✭✭just make you own group to learn game to not force players to carry you or learn you for content you are unable to do when they are and thats for what they queued 2
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mzprx✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »...That's like 70k on the 21 mil.... That's trial DPS...
and here i thought my 70k DPS was on the "low" side. i don't have the "best of the best of the best, sir!" trial gear so i am happy to hear that 70k is good enough. thanks for that
on a more serious note, i am against putting veteran dungeons behind any gate(s). imagine paying for something and not being able to do the content you paid for. i don't mean finish, i mean just doing it. who'd buy their DLCs?
although i agree that PUGing veteran dungeons as a tank or a healer and getting two friends (that queued as a group) as DDs that try to light attack their way through vCoS can be a painful experience, it is something we all have seen and must take into consideration. i know all too well the situation with tanking 10+ deadroths in vBC2 but that doesn't mean i am up for people that paid for the game and content being locked out of it. when i encounter DDs like that i try to explain stuff to them and if they listen all is fine. i don't mind wiping a couple of times as long as we can finish it. if they don't and i see that there's no way that we're going to actually finish the dungeon i leave. that is the way of a PUG..
and yes, burning down bosses before mechanics happen sounds nice, but i absolutely despise "speedrunners" that steamroll ahead and leave the rest do "keep up or leave", as i was told some time ago (as a tank). mostly because they pull everything to the next boss and then complain and insult the tank for "not doing their job" when they die because there's 20+ adds and the boss and the poor fellow tanking is still on his way. learning the mechanics has always been a fun experience for me, so even if i am in a group with friends that do 100+k DPS and can steamroll through the dungeon i still ask them to do all the mechanics..0 -
Herr_Flocke✭✭✭no we don't need more requirements for vet dungeon DD's. Vet dungeons are neither designed for maxed Tanks, nor for maxed Healers nor for maxed DPS. They're designed for functioning groups. Especially as a tank, you should understand the difference.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »If this is how you feel stop queueing for pugs. Make your own groups.
No. I won't. Because pushing all the competent people out of the queue shouldn't be the end goal. We already have a CP requirement because zos agrees this was unfair to everyone else. So I'll keep hoping for the removal or reduction to 160 for the cp requirement and instead a dps check.
Anyone who cannot possibly do their fair share shouldn't be there.
PUGs are for everyone. It is a simple enough solution for players who have strict requirements to just form their own groups. But no one has the right to block anyone else from content they wish to enjoy.
PUGS aren't supposed to be for literally everyone. That's why you cannot take your cp 160 into Vet DLC dungeons. They are supposed to be for everyone with the potential to clear it, even if they end up not having the skill.
People who enter the queue without being able to actually contribute either are unaware they are that bad and everyone is carrying them, or that they are aware and want to take advantage. The honest ones will finally have some objective data they can use to improve and the latter group will probably still try to figure out ways to game. Unavoidable reality of any system.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »If players who are not able to pass a dps test are blocked from queueing, how are they going to get the experience, and gear, they need to better themselves and be able to contribute more?.
You can get better at parsing on dummies and on overland bosses. The gear needed to hit those numbers can be farmed from normal dungeons, crafted, or obtained from overland. They can also get guild mates to help them, people who actually want to help.
There is nothing about being unable to queue for vet alone that prevents them from hitting 20k dps on a dummy. Not a single thing. That is a low bar.0 -
iksde✭✭✭✭Herr_Flocke wrote: »no we don't need more requirements for vet dungeon DD's. Vet dungeons are neither designed for maxed Tanks, nor for maxed Healers nor for maxed DPS. They're designed for functioning groups. Especially as a tank, you should understand the difference.
yes and so noone is asking requirment to be at maximum possibility fo his role fo dung,
what was asked for was for requirment to be able able perform your minimum for called dung
we are not asking to brind 90k+ dps for fg1
we are asking to bring your aleast this 10k-15k dps for veteran dungs like tempest island for example or blessed crucible with mind open to learn new mechanics or to accept advices to be more helpfull for group
or for this 25k-30k for dlc dungs where everything is harder than in basic dungs and have higher dps checks
we are not asking for god tier 100k+ dps, we are asking to not get grouped with people not ready for dung which we ahve queued, for people not able to fulfil their role even on minimum for this dung0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »...That's like 70k on the 21 mil.... That's trial DPS...
and here i thought my 70k DPS was on the "low" side. i don't have the "best of the best of the best, sir!" trial gear so i am happy to hear that 70k is good enough. thanks for that
70k is enough to start doing vet dlc trials but not good enough for achievements or scoreboards. You're at the beginning stages where you can start entering them and begin learning mechs, but will still need training from higher end dps with more experience in that dungeon. You can start looking for a prog group that will take a 70k+ person.
In terms of trials, you're like the equivalent of the 20k-25k dps in the vet dungeon. Yes it's good enough to start trying without pulling teeth or automaticlly being carried, but things will be much smoother if you're the weakest one in group and you're gonna have to be good enough to handle mechsEdited by spartaxoxo on June 16, 2021 12:43AM2 -
Herr_Flocke✭✭✭
this would actually apply to all roles, wouldn't it ? So how would you measure tank performance ?yes and so noone is asking requirment to be at maximum possibility fo his role fo dung,
what was asked for was for requirment to be able able perform your minimum for called dung
No, what harder content really requires is that the group can handle it with what is available. Group performance is not the sum of indiviual scores. Not to hard to understand I think.
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iksde✭✭✭✭Herr_Flocke wrote: »
this would actually apply to all roles, wouldn't it ? So how would you measure tank performance ?yes and so noone is asking requirment to be at maximum possibility fo his role fo dung,
what was asked for was for requirment to be able able perform your minimum for called dung
No, what harder content really requires is that the group can handle it with what is available. Group performance is not the sum of indiviual scores. Not to hard to understand I think.
it could apply to all roles but at the end it will be only segregation from real tank, healers and fake
and yes group performance is sum of individual scores from dd's side, if dd dont have his own dps high enough then no support from healer and tank and even from 2nd dd will help his dps
sorry but support magically wont increasy your dps by 200% or 500% to make you competent dd if you was doing 5k for dlc dung
at 1st you need to have on our ownw this dps in order to make sum of group able to clear content0
This discussion has been closed.