Looking for help with poison based DK

ThePlacidHatter · June 2021

I have a bow/bow poison based DK.
Amour is 5 piece Swamp Raider, 5 piece Witch-Knight, 2 piece Velidreth and Perfected Maelstrom on back bar.
Front bar is Lethal Arrow (this is my spammable), Acid Spray (occasionally use this for trash mobs), Camouflaged Hunter, Barbed Trap & Molten Armaments.
Back bar is Poison Injection, Arrow Barrage, Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw & Echoing Vigor.

On a trial dummy, just rotating through my four back bar dots and Lethal Arrow spammable, my DPS is ~36K. This may be low but it's decent compared to what I can usually get across my toons.
What bothers me is what if I drop my dots and just weave my spammable, I get very nearly the same DPS.

Is the time the casting of the dots take away from my spammable just not worth their damage? Is there a way to make these dots work better for me?

Thanks.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2021

The DoTs should definitely add to your damage. Surely, their total damage per cast is higher than the total damage of each Lethal Arrow.

If that's not the case in practice, it could be a matter of rotation and light attack weaving—maybe you weave better when not doing your DoT rotation, maybe you attack slower when just using Lethal Arrow, maybe you're reapplying the DoTs too early (stamDK requires a pretty good rotation because all the durations are different).

I'd also switch out Camo Hunter for Vigor just for the sake of parsing, possibly drop Acid Spray if it's not worth the stamina/rotation time, and move Molten Armaments to the backbar so you can have something you use more often on frontbar (or drop it entirely and use Weapon Power potions instead)

Not sure what else to say with the information given, good luck o/

Fennwitty · June 2021

ThePlacidHatter wrote: »

I have a bow/bow poison based DK.
Amour is 5 piece Swamp Raider, 5 piece Witch-Knight, 2 piece Velidreth and Perfected Maelstrom on back bar.
Front bar is Lethal Arrow (this is my spammable), Acid Spray (occasionally use this for trash mobs), Camouflaged Hunter, Barbed Trap & Molten Armaments.
Back bar is Poison Injection, Arrow Barrage, Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw & Echoing Vigor.

On a trial dummy, just rotating through my four back bar dots and Lethal Arrow spammable, my DPS is ~36K. This may be low but it's decent compared to what I can usually get across my toons.
What bothers me is what if I drop my dots and just weave my spammable, I get very nearly the same DPS.

Is the time the casting of the dots take away from my spammable just not worth their damage? Is there a way to make these dots work better for me?

Thanks.

How long are you parsing for?

The DoT's do a lot for their cost over the long haul, and save you resources. If you run out of resources because you spammed instants too much you'll have a lot of empty time making heavy attacks.

Uptime is exceptionally important though. You have to practice keeping the dots all going at the same time, with very little if any interruption.

YandereGirlfriend · June 2021

I know that it's thematic but Velidreth is a pretty weak monster set, DPS-wise these days (since the balls can only hit a single target once).

I have a Poison-themed DK and dropped a monster set for the Blackrose Prison Bow and added Magnum Shot to my rotation. If the Magnum Shot Critically Strikes from long range and you have your five bow stacks built up, the resulting Poison Damage DoT is absolutely rowdy and more than justifies the slot on your bar.

Another set that you can look into is Morag Tong. That will apply a unique 10% debuff to enemies against Poison and Disease damage, and, if your rotation is nearly all Poison Damage, it will provide a larger DPS bump than something like Witch Knight will. If you were in an optimized Stamina group setting, then ideally someone else would provide this debuff for you, but if you're playing solo or in un-optimized groups then wearing it as a selfish set would be a solid choice.

itscompton · June 2021

ThePlacidHatter wrote: »

I have a bow/bow poison based DK.
Amour is 5 piece Swamp Raider, 5 piece Witch-Knight, 2 piece Velidreth and Perfected Maelstrom on back bar.
Front bar is Lethal Arrow (this is my spammable), Acid Spray (occasionally use this for trash mobs), Camouflaged Hunter, Barbed Trap & Molten Armaments.
Back bar is Poison Injection, Arrow Barrage, Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw & Echoing Vigor.

On a trial dummy, just rotating through my four back bar dots and Lethal Arrow spammable, my DPS is ~36K. This may be low but it's decent compared to what I can usually get across my toons.
What bothers me is what if I drop my dots and just weave my spammable, I get very nearly the same DPS.

Is the time the casting of the dots take away from my spammable just not worth their damage? Is there a way to make these dots work better for me?

Thanks.

I would be very interested to know what difference it would make if you run Deadly Strike in place of Witch Knight. All your Dot's should be stronger but the direct damage portion of the abilities would be a bit weaker.

Zodiarkslayer · June 2021

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Ippokrates · June 2021

Not sure about Swamp Rider, i mean, i have sentiment to that set cause it is first set I have collected, but as far as i remember, it doesn't increase your LA/HA.

Also, try to use Dragonstar Bow on a front bar. Should work well for a poison build

gariondavey · June 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Snipe is not channeled. It is not buffed by deadly strikes.

Ippokrates · June 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Snipe is not channeled. It is not buffed by deadly strikes.

Yup, only Bow Ultimate is.

BXR_Lonestar · June 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I know that it's thematic but Velidreth is a pretty weak monster set, DPS-wise these days (since the balls can only hit a single target once).

I have a Poison-themed DK and dropped a monster set for the Blackrose Prison Bow and added Magnum Shot to my rotation. If the Magnum Shot Critically Strikes from long range and you have your five bow stacks built up, the resulting Poison Damage DoT is absolutely rowdy and more than justifies the slot on your bar.

Another set that you can look into is Morag Tong. That will apply a unique 10% debuff to enemies against Poison and Disease damage, and, if your rotation is nearly all Poison Damage, it will provide a larger DPS bump than something like Witch Knight will. If you were in an optimized Stamina group setting, then ideally someone else would provide this debuff for you, but if you're playing solo or in un-optimized groups then wearing it as a selfish set would be a solid choice.

IMO, all stam monster sets are pretty weak because stam characters need to vary the range at which they fight because you can't always be in melee range. Rather than going monster set, he could consider using a mythic item, or if not that, arena weapons. Maelstrom dual wield set would be nasty on a poison DK Dot build.

goldenarcher1 · June 2021

If you were to use deadly strikes+Swamp raider,the toxic barrage morph of the bow ultimate would be pretty strong despite the 4 second channel time.

Mythreindeer · June 2021

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

If you were to use deadly strikes+Swamp raider,the toxic barrage morph of the bow ultimate would be pretty strong despite the 4 second channel time.

Yep. My dragon killer set up.

Ippokrates · June 2021

Mythreindeer wrote: »

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

If you were to use deadly strikes+Swamp raider,the toxic barrage morph of the bow ultimate would be pretty strong despite the 4 second channel time.

Yep. My dragon killer set up.

Mine too ^^

Zodiarkslayer · June 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Snipe is not channeled. It is not buffed by deadly strikes.

Snipe and its morphs have cast times of 0.8 seconds. They are therefore a channelled attack, since that is the definition of a channelled attack. Right? Having a cast time. Or is there something I do not get?

I do not use deadly strike on my Bow biild. So wether Deadly Strike really buffs Snipe or not in game, I haven't checked. It bloody well should be!

Ippokrates · June 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Snipe is not channeled. It is not buffed by deadly strikes.

Snipe and its morphs have cast times of 0.8 seconds. They are therefore a channelled attack, since that is the definition of a channelled attack. Right? Having a cast time. Or is there something I do not get?

I do not use deadly strike on my Bow biild. So wether Deadly Strike really buffs Snipe or not in game, I haven't checked. It bloody well should be!

No, cast time & channeling are two different things. With cast time of lets say 0,8 sec like snipe or dizzy swing, your skill is dealing dmg at the end of the cast time.

But during channeling (bow ultimate, dual ST, jabs, radiant glory or Templar healing ultimate) your skills are giving you few impulses of dmg or heal WHILE your char is busy with casting them - so not mess it with DOT/HOT that could give you the same effect but difference is that your char is ready to perform other actions.

Zodiarkslayer · June 2021

Ippokrates wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

Ideally for parsing you should use Weapon Power potions and Lava Foot Soup with Saltrice. And remember the Trial Attro is already fully debuffed! No need for Noxious breath, unless you are in melee range and want to use the DoT. Which you shouldn't, because you are a bow user.

@ThePlacidHatter
I honestly have never heard of anyone getting a stamDK BowBow to work for DPS with decent numbers, but let us know if you manage and how you did it.

Snipe is not channeled. It is not buffed by deadly strikes.

Snipe and its morphs have cast times of 0.8 seconds. They are therefore a channelled attack, since that is the definition of a channelled attack. Right? Having a cast time. Or is there something I do not get?

I do not use deadly strike on my Bow biild. So wether Deadly Strike really buffs Snipe or not in game, I haven't checked. It bloody well should be!

No, cast time & channeling are two different things. With cast time of lets say 0,8 sec like snipe or dizzy swing, your skill is dealing dmg at the end of the cast time.

But during channeling (bow ultimate, dual ST, jabs, radiant glory or Templar healing ultimate) your skills are giving you few impulses of dmg or heal WHILE your char is busy with casting them - so not mess it with DOT/HOT that could give you the same effect but difference is that your char is ready to perform other actions.

Thank you for clarifying. 😉

ThePlacidHatter · June 2021

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

—maybe you weave better when not doing your DoT rotation, maybe you attack slower when just using Lethal Arrow, maybe you're reapplying the DoTs too early (stamDK requires a pretty good rotation because all the durations are different).

I'd also switch out Camo Hunter for Vigor just for the sake of parsing, possibly drop Acid Spray if it's not worth the stamina/rotation time, and move Molten Armaments to the backbar so you can have something you use more often on frontbar (or drop it entirely and use Weapon Power potions instead)

My weaving definitely slips when I'm on my backbar.
I moved my DK dots to front bar so I can control them better and get the full duration out of them. This had maybe helped a tiny bit.

Fennwitty wrote: »

How long are you parsing for?

The DoT's do a lot for their cost over the long haul, and save you resources. If you run out of resources because you spammed instants too much you'll have a lot of empty time making heavy attacks.

Uptime is exceptionally important though. You have to practice keeping the dots all going at the same time, with very little if any interruption.

Usually a few minutes, until I see DPS normalise.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I know that it's thematic but Velidreth is a pretty weak monster set, DPS-wise these days (since the balls can only hit a single target once).

I have a Poison-themed DK and dropped a monster set for the Blackrose Prison Bow and added Magnum Shot to my rotation. If the Magnum Shot Critically Strikes from long range and you have your five bow stacks built up, the resulting Poison Damage DoT is absolutely rowdy and more than justifies the slot on your bar.

Another set that you can look into is Morag Tong. That will apply a unique 10% debuff to enemies against Poison and Disease damage, and, if your rotation is nearly all Poison Damage, it will provide a larger DPS bump than something like Witch Knight will. If you were in an optimized Stamina group setting, then ideally someone else would provide this debuff for you, but if you're playing solo or in un-optimized groups then wearing it as a selfish set would be a solid choice.

I would like to drop Velidreth for something else. I misunderstood how the poison balls worked (that you can only ever have one hit your target). DPS of this set is very low for me (like 1.2k). I may try one piece critical, one piece penetration.

I would really like to try the Caustic Arrow bow from Dragonstar Arena but finding groups for this seems to be quite hard.
Caustic Arrow bow: Increases your Weapon Damage by 330 against targets affected by your Poison Arrow.

I didn't know about Morag Tong, it looks good. I'll try to get it.

itscompton wrote: »

I would be very interested to know what difference it would make if you run Deadly Strike in place of Witch Knight. All your Dot's should be stronger but the direct damage portion of the abilities would be a bit weaker.

I was very interested in this set and may still try it. With so much of my damage coming from Lethal Arrow, I'm not sure how it will go.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

I thought a skill had to specifically say it is a chanelled skill and this ruled out Lethal Arrow from benefiting from Seadly Strike.

Not sure on time percentage for each bar.
I hadn't really thought about the bow's distance passive.

Ippokrates wrote: »

Not sure about Swamp Rider, i mean, i have sentiment to that set cause it is first set I have collected, but as far as i remember, it doesn't increase your LA/HA.

Also, try to use Dragonstar Bow on a front bar. Should work well for a poison build

I would love to try this bow. Acquiring it is something else, though....

ThePlacidHatter · June 2021

I changed some stuff around.

Monster is now one piece Slime, one piece Kra'gh (for pen). My old monster pieces were heavy, these are both now medium (though, one is lacking divines).
Dropped Witch-Knight for Morag Tong and kept Swamp-Raider. I briefly tried Deadly Strike but wasn't really happy with performance.
I changed my CP tree slightly to buff my Lethal Arrow as much as possible (that's obviously where my damage is on this guy).
CP slottables are now crit damage, flank crit damage, direct damage and single target.

I now get DPS in the low 40k by doing nothing but weaving light attack with Lethal Arrow. This may still seem low to some but it's actually quite good considering what I can manage on my other toons. I think it's laughable that I can get 40K DPS with one skill.

Problem is, as soon as I try to mix in even on DoT, even one from my front bar, my DPS starts to go down.
This I don't really understand, the DoTs do decent damage. I haven't experienced this with my other toons. DoTs usually help my DPS.

danno8 · June 2021

ThePlacidHatter wrote: »

I changed some stuff around.

Monster is now one piece Slime, one piece Kra'gh (for pen). My old monster pieces were heavy, these are both now medium (though, one is lacking divines).
Dropped Witch-Knight for Morag Tong and kept Swamp-Raider. I briefly tried Deadly Strike but wasn't really happy with performance.
I changed my CP tree slightly to buff my Lethal Arrow as much as possible (that's obviously where my damage is on this guy).
CP slottables are now crit damage, flank crit damage, direct damage and single target.

I now get DPS in the low 40k by doing nothing but weaving light attack with Lethal Arrow. This may still seem low to some but it's actually quite good considering what I can manage on my other toons. I think it's laughable that I can get 40K DPS with one skill.

Problem is, as soon as I try to mix in even on DoT, even one from my front bar, my DPS starts to go down.
This I don't really understand, the DoTs do decent damage. I haven't experienced this with my other toons. DoTs usually help my DPS.

It looks like your CP is set up to buff none of your DoT's but to buff several aspects of your Lethal Arrow. Flank, Direct and Single Target will have no effect at all on Noxious, Spray or Barrage (or maybe just the DD portion of those skills if they have them).

I would suggest trying a naked parse with just weapons and skills and no CP and seeing what skills are your biggest damage. Then adjust CP and gear to buff those items that were on the top.

Ippokrates · June 2021

ThePlacidHatter wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

—maybe you weave better when not doing your DoT rotation, maybe you attack slower when just using Lethal Arrow, maybe you're reapplying the DoTs too early (stamDK requires a pretty good rotation because all the durations are different).

I'd also switch out Camo Hunter for Vigor just for the sake of parsing, possibly drop Acid Spray if it's not worth the stamina/rotation time, and move Molten Armaments to the backbar so you can have something you use more often on frontbar (or drop it entirely and use Weapon Power potions instead)

My weaving definitely slips when I'm on my backbar.
I moved my DK dots to front bar so I can control them better and get the full duration out of them. This had maybe helped a tiny bit.

Fennwitty wrote: »

How long are you parsing for?

The DoT's do a lot for their cost over the long haul, and save you resources. If you run out of resources because you spammed instants too much you'll have a lot of empty time making heavy attacks.

Uptime is exceptionally important though. You have to practice keeping the dots all going at the same time, with very little if any interruption.

Usually a few minutes, until I see DPS normalise.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I know that it's thematic but Velidreth is a pretty weak monster set, DPS-wise these days (since the balls can only hit a single target once).

I have a Poison-themed DK and dropped a monster set for the Blackrose Prison Bow and added Magnum Shot to my rotation. If the Magnum Shot Critically Strikes from long range and you have your five bow stacks built up, the resulting Poison Damage DoT is absolutely rowdy and more than justifies the slot on your bar.

Another set that you can look into is Morag Tong. That will apply a unique 10% debuff to enemies against Poison and Disease damage, and, if your rotation is nearly all Poison Damage, it will provide a larger DPS bump than something like Witch Knight will. If you were in an optimized Stamina group setting, then ideally someone else would provide this debuff for you, but if you're playing solo or in un-optimized groups then wearing it as a selfish set would be a solid choice.

I would like to drop Velidreth for something else. I misunderstood how the poison balls worked (that you can only ever have one hit your target). DPS of this set is very low for me (like 1.2k). I may try one piece critical, one piece penetration.

I would really like to try the Caustic Arrow bow from Dragonstar Arena but finding groups for this seems to be quite hard.
Caustic Arrow bow: Increases your Weapon Damage by 330 against targets affected by your Poison Arrow.

I didn't know about Morag Tong, it looks good. I'll try to get it.

itscompton wrote: »

I would be very interested to know what difference it would make if you run Deadly Strike in place of Witch Knight. All your Dot's should be stronger but the direct damage portion of the abilities would be a bit weaker.

I was very interested in this set and may still try it. With so much of my damage coming from Lethal Arrow, I'm not sure how it will go.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Deadly Strike would also buff your spammable, because it is a channelled ability. It is your strongest non Trial DPS choice.

2 piece Monster sets are bad choices, especially for ranged Stamina Characters. Use two different 1 piece Sets (Slimecraw, Grundwulf or Kragh). Or One plus mythic.

Also: with that much chunk on the backbar, how is your frontbar time? It should ideally be in the range of 65% to 85%.

What is your Distance to the Dummy? Melee abilities should be dropped for an increase in passive power through bow passives.

I thought a skill had to specifically say it is a chanelled skill and this ruled out Lethal Arrow from benefiting from Seadly Strike.

Not sure on time percentage for each bar.
I hadn't really thought about the bow's distance passive.

Ippokrates wrote: »

Not sure about Swamp Rider, i mean, i have sentiment to that set cause it is first set I have collected, but as far as i remember, it doesn't increase your LA/HA.

Also, try to use Dragonstar Bow on a front bar. Should work well for a poison build

I would love to try this bow. Acquiring it is something else, though....

It is not so hard on solo

Sure, Dark Mage is tough but except that it is relatively simple arena you could manage alone. Or with help of tanky companion