Thank you for ruining my gear

jrgray93 · June 2021

Thanks to another fundamental misunderstanding of the game you have designed and maintained for seven years, my Skoria set, already underwhelming outside of battlegrounds, does 5k instead of 9k. I forgot to check my Zaan damage prior to the patch, but rest assured, it's ruined now, too. I won't take the time to list the many, many other sets that are useless now.

Pro tip: magicka players don't stack spell damage nearly as much as stamina players stack weapon damage. This is not how your game works.

Another patch, another reason to stack nothing but crit sets. Less build variety, less fun.

Patch day should be something to look forward to. Patch day shouldn't make me want to log off after five minutes.

SidraWillowsky · June 2021

Yep, this is BS. Grothdarr does 667 damage when it procs.
Illambris does around 800.

If you want to pull top-tier DPS on a mag toon you're basically stuck with MS, Medusa, and two crit pieces or the waders. Boring as hell. We're using sets that are about as old as the game is.

You have completely killed monster sets for mag DDs, ZOS. This is terrible.

Ksariyu · June 2021

Like, on one hand I understand the annoyance of your gear getting hard nerfed for no reason.

On the other hand, what's new? It's not like build diversity existed prior to this patch either.

jrgray93 · June 2021

The 2 piece bonus on skoria now provides less dps than the 1 piece bonus.

wat

Tannus15 · June 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yep, this is BS. Grothdarr does 667 damage when it procs.
Illambris does around 800.

If you want to pull top-tier DPS on a mag toon you're basically stuck with MS, Medusa, and two crit pieces or the waders. Boring as hell. We're using sets that are about as old as the game is.

You have completely killed monster sets for mag DDs, ZOS. This is terrible.

No one will be running monster sets in top tier dps anyway. It will be 1pc slimecraw and harpooner's kilt.

@jrgray93 isn't 1pc skoria pen? mag doesn't need pen anyway, which is why no one has been running skoria for ages regardless.

The funny thing is that running non crit builds is totally viable right now, except for the fact that ZoS have over stacked crit damage support sets into trial groups. major force, minor force and EC are all % damage increases. There are no % damage increases that reward you for stacking spell damage.
if they changed minor and major courage to be % based then it would reward you for stacking hard into spell damage, but because it's a flat bonus you can rely on it for base damage and stack crit.

jrgray93 · June 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yep, this is BS. Grothdarr does 667 damage when it procs.
Illambris does around 800.

If you want to pull top-tier DPS on a mag toon you're basically stuck with MS, Medusa, and two crit pieces or the waders. Boring as hell. We're using sets that are about as old as the game is.

You have completely killed monster sets for mag DDs, ZOS. This is terrible.

No one will be running monster sets in top tier dps anyway. It will be 1pc slimecraw and harpooner's kilt.

@jrgray93 isn't 1pc skoria pen? mag doesn't need pen anyway, which is why no one has been running skoria for ages regardless.

Skoria is ruined for my PvP build. The entire point was that it was already next to useless outside of that scenario and got another pointless nerf.

Zaan is the one I am mad about in PvE.

SidraWillowsky · June 2021

Ksariyu wrote: »

Like, on one hand I understand the annoyance of your gear getting hard nerfed for no reason.

On the other hand, what's new? It's not like build diversity existed prior to this patch either.

This is the worst I've seen. They've killed Zaan, Skoria, Grothdarr, Illambris, Nerien'eth... among a bunch of others; those are the sets I use(d) on my mag DDs, though.

Tannus15 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yep, this is BS. Grothdarr does 667 damage when it procs.
Illambris does around 800.

If you want to pull top-tier DPS on a mag toon you're basically stuck with MS, Medusa, and two crit pieces or the waders. Boring as hell. We're using sets that are about as old as the game is.

You have completely killed monster sets for mag DDs, ZOS. This is terrible.

No one will be running monster sets in top tier dps anyway. It will be 1pc slimecraw and harpooner's kilt.

@jrgray93 isn't 1pc skoria pen? mag doesn't need pen anyway, which is why no one has been running skoria for ages regardless.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. I predict that the waders are going to go the way of the Thrassian Stranglers soon, however.

Supertonicbaker · June 2021

Normally, as with the many other MMOs I’ve played, I just take the changes and adapt. But these last few changes makes me think of the episode of South Park where Stan tries to return his dad’s Margarita-ville mixer thingie and finds out that decisions were being made by cutting off the head of a chicken and letting it run around a board until it falls over. Perhaps...?

Tannus15 · June 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Like, on one hand I understand the annoyance of your gear getting hard nerfed for no reason.

On the other hand, what's new? It's not like build diversity existed prior to this patch either.

This is the worst I've seen. They've killed Zaan, Skoria, Grothdarr, Illambris, Nerien'eth... among a bunch of others; those are the sets I use(d) on my mag DDs, though.

Tannus15 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yep, this is BS. Grothdarr does 667 damage when it procs.
Illambris does around 800.

If you want to pull top-tier DPS on a mag toon you're basically stuck with MS, Medusa, and two crit pieces or the waders. Boring as hell. We're using sets that are about as old as the game is.

You have completely killed monster sets for mag DDs, ZOS. This is terrible.

No one will be running monster sets in top tier dps anyway. It will be 1pc slimecraw and harpooner's kilt.

@jrgray93 isn't 1pc skoria pen? mag doesn't need pen anyway, which is why no one has been running skoria for ages regardless.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. I predict that the waders are going to go the way of the Thrassian Stranglers soon, however.

they should buff the 2pc monster set bonuses. It should never be the case that 2 1pc bonuses are stronger than the full set imo.

Smitch_59 · June 2021

Yeah, I'm sick of the constant nerfs. I've never been anywhere near top-tier, and the nerfs have pretty much made me stop playing this game.

ArchMikem · June 2021

I thought the new Monster set Meta was Balorgh's anyway.

ZOS has been trying to answer the constant complaints of being one shot by proc users in PvP. Proc sets, which include Monster set procs, are the culprit and all they can feasibly do is drop the damage output down enough to where they're no longer an issue. This all started when Procs could no longer crit, but there's always going to be complaints. One side wants procs nerfed into the ground, the other side wants them to hit hard so their DPS is a fun number.

There's gonna be no win-win here.

Fennwitty · June 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

I thought the new Monster set Meta was Balorgh's anyway.

ZOS has been trying to answer the constant complaints of being one shot by proc users in PvP. Proc sets, which include Monster set procs, are the culprit and all they can feasibly do is drop the damage output down enough to where they're no longer an issue. This all started when Procs could no longer crit, but there's always going to be complaints. One side wants procs nerfed into the ground, the other side wants them to hit hard so their DPS is a fun number.

There's gonna be no win-win here.

Unless they balance them separately/with battle spirit ...

jrgray93 · June 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

I thought the new Monster set Meta was Balorgh's anyway.

ZOS has been trying to answer the constant complaints of being one shot by proc users in PvP. Proc sets, which include Monster set procs, are the culprit and all they can feasibly do is drop the damage output down enough to where they're no longer an issue. This all started when Procs could no longer crit, but there's always going to be complaints. One side wants procs nerfed into the ground, the other side wants them to hit hard so their DPS is a fun number.

There's gonna be no win-win here.

I want them to revert these changes and just add a battle spirit proc nerf in PvP of 25-35% or so.

The real problem in PvP isn't the sets themselves, but usually how well they pair with other classes and builds. If proc sets are OP, what of stamdens being able to combo dive / dawnbreaker / sub assault instantaneously? This is even worse with the martial damage penalty of light armor. Light armor already had a martial damage penalty because it had such low physical resist, but they piled on for no reason whatsoever.

They also don't understand how their game has been built from day one, because magicka DPS don't get nearly as much weapon damage as stamina. My stamplar gets to 10k weapon damage. My magplar, with almost identical PvE DPS, gets to maybe 5-6k. So now my magplar is disproportionately affected by proc changes, when mag procs were never the problem to begin with.

Just... these changes are clueless and I don't get it.

FluffWit · June 2021

I said two months ago they should leave things as they are for another 3-6 months, go through every proc set and figure out what's underperforming, what's over performing and what's fine as it is instead of rushing this out half assed.

There was no need for any urgency when it came to making these half assed changes.

Lynxyn · June 2021

Welcome to elder stamina online would you like a free dumpster to toss all your Magicka sets into?

gronoxvx · June 2021

Nothing new tbh. Another way to get people to buy the new chapter.

PigofSteel · June 2021

Great job.

LeonAkando · June 2021

Going to plug my post here. I wrote extensively on this during the PTS. You can view the analysis and subsequent discussion here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572775/7-0-2-proc-set-changes-the-death-of-proc-sets-in-pve/p1

Sagetim · June 2021

It’s always been like this. You spend time and money to get your setup just right for them to change it and F it up. They keep nerfing magic build for PVE and it completely screws up the PVP side. I would say 70%-80% of PVP is stamina builds now because of the higher burst damage and higher weapon damage that can be achieved.

I’ve said this before; magic builds have to have stamina for break free, roll doge, sprinting but stamina build do not have to have any magic at all. This makes the game very unbalanced.
Balance them, no mater if it’s PVP or PVE.

DarcyMardin · June 2021

Also sick of the constant nerfs. And the massive adjustments every quarter. They give us something, like a monster set or revamped skill or a mythic item, and 3 months later it’s “whoops, never mind, we’re cutting the value of that in half.” More and more “adjustments” ...less and less fun.

Stevie6 · June 2021

Well, is it over? The devs did the player base a great service. PVE is dead for average Joe. The floor is gone and the basement is just too cold. Maybe Microsoft will setup a pre Morrowind server sometime in the near future...I remember when we had damage and shields...those were the days..

Guess farming is all there is now...

Larcomar · June 2021

jrgray93 wrote: »

Another patch, another reason to stack nothing but crit sets. Less build variety, less fun.

Patch day should be something to look forward to. Patch day shouldn't make me want to log off after five minutes.

Sadly, I this this sums it up rather well. I don't quite understand why zos is so driven by pvp, or why it hates casual players so much. My guess is they think casual players are just tootling around overland and won't care. But this absolutely destroys and awful lot of fun builds.

I did log in. I dumped my shock sorc's ilambris - overwhelming surge - thunderbug combo in a chest and bunged on 1pc slimecraw, 1 pc iceheart, mother's sorrow and medusa. I opened up my mag dk, dumped his grothdar, realised there wasn't much point running elfbane now, and figured, ok I'd put 1pc slimecraw, 1 pc iceheart and mother's sorrow on. I did get as far as my magblade, but tbh only got as far as stripping calurrion's off him. I really couldn't be bothered to carry on.

rumple9 · June 2021

Mag classes need to be stacking magicka this patch

BalticBlues · June 2021

LeonAkando wrote: »

I wrote extensively on this during the PTS. You can view the analysis and subsequent discussion here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572775/7-0-2-proc-set-changes-the-death-of-proc-sets-in-pve/p1

Indeed. For weeks we warned that Update 30 ruins PvE builds for too many customers. And for what? To please the less than 1% of customers playing PvP? ZOS, PLEASE ADJUST PVP VIA BATTLE SPIRIT instead of RUINING THE PVE EXPERIENCE.

Sets that use Spell Damage now require 6574 Spell Damage to reach their original values. WHAT? Not even with 2k CP my mag builds can come near this value. All my LightArmor toons only have around 3xxx Spell Damage. So all my LA mag toons lose about -50% Proc damage. So all proc sets now are dead for 90% of magicka builds. This is just another example of balancing with a sledgehammer, nerfing most PvE mag builds into OBLIVION:

"Get ready for some fine-tuning of your Mag builds in OBLIVION."

iksde · June 2021

Ksariyu wrote: »

Like, on one hand I understand the annoyance of your gear getting hard nerfed for no reason.

On the other hand, what's new? It's not like build diversity existed prior to this patch either.

I had a bit of diversity on my support mag dk xD with elfbane and zen, illambris was great for this with elbane working for it, now? even with elfbane extended duration of flame illambris it is trash now, damage also "balanced" for proc of both lighting and flame rains just ruined illambris for magdk where it was used only on magdk with elfbane if we are talking about endgame progression, not rp, now just zaan is more pwoerfull on this setup like on every oother class

zaan not buffed by elfbane is superior than trashed now illambris th elfbane, i we are talking about aoe where additionally illambris or grothdar was superior on trash mob fights - 2x spell crit monster parts are better than full mosnter set for mag dk - so as magdk had diversity before patch with mosnter sets - now it doesnt have, it went on same boat with everyone else -zaan for single target boss fight and 2x crit monster set parts for everything else or just slimecraw if you dont have minor berserk buff

Kiralyn2000 · June 2021

Stevie6 wrote: »

Well, is it over? The devs did the player base a great service. PVE is dead for average Joe. .

How does something that seems like it only effects Meta/BiS/min-max-my-DPS/etc players, kill things for "average Joe"?
edit: for that matter, what do you mean when you say "PvE"? Just hardmode leaderboards, or the other 98% of the PvE in the game

...does Average Joe even have meta monster sets? Is he even doing vet hardmodes and other things that need that extra few K of DPS? What do you think "Average Joe" is? (heck, what do I think Average Joe is?

I don't even have any monster sets, and I've been playing since 2016. But, then, I don't run dungeons.)

ApoAlaia · June 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Stevie6 wrote: »

Well, is it over? The devs did the player base a great service. PVE is dead for average Joe. .

How does something that seems like it only effects Meta/BiS/min-max-my-DPS/etc players, kill things for "average Joe"?
edit: for that matter, what do you mean when you say "PvE"? Just hardmode leaderboards, or the other 98% of the PvE in the game

...does Average Joe even have meta monster sets? Is he even doing vet hardmodes and other things that need that extra few K of DPS? What do you think "Average Joe" is? (heck, what do I think Average Joe is? I don't even have any monster sets, and I've been playing since 2016. But, then, I don't run dungeons.)

Many popular monster sets have been available to purchase from the golden vendor in Cyro.

Prices are not exorbitant either. It is entirely possible to have multiple complete monster sets without ever having set foot in a dungeon.

Is a strange rut with this game and its approach to gear. I'm not sure I understand it myself.

BalticBlues · June 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

How does something that seems like it only effects Meta/BiS/min-max-my-DPS/etc players, kill things for "average Joe"?

Average Joe is not stupid. He sees that the sets he needed MONTH/YEARS to golden out suddenly do -50% proc damage. And then he thinks: DO THEY TAKE ME FOR STUPID?

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

...does Average Joe even have meta monster sets? Is he even doing vet hardmodes

This is not about any "meta". This is about ALL MagPlayers using proc sets, especially monster sets because of the FUN AND FLEXIBILITY. Most people are happy with their builds, but one day ZOS comes and tells then:

"Sorry, Mag people, we nerf your PvE proc sets by -50% because the PvP Stam people do not like them. However, you could run a Stam build to keep the proc damage. How about that?"

IMHO this is exactly how companies should NEVER treat customers.

Brrrofski · June 2021

BalticBlues wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

I wrote extensively on this during the PTS. You can view the analysis and subsequent discussion here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572775/7-0-2-proc-set-changes-the-death-of-proc-sets-in-pve/p1

Indeed. For weeks we warned that Update 30 ruins PvE builds for too many customers. And for what? To please the less than 1% of customers playing PvP? ZOS, PLEASE ADJUST PVP VIA BATTLE SPIRIT instead of RUINING THE PVE EXPERIENCE.

Sets that use Spell Damage now require 6574 Spell Damage to reach their original values. WHAT? Not even with 2k CP my mag builds can come near this value. All my LightArmor toons only have around 3xxx Spell Damage. So all my LA mag toons lose about -50% Proc damage. So all proc sets now are dead for 90% of magicka builds. This is just another example of balancing with a sledgehammer, nerfing most PvE mag builds into OBLIVION.

[snip]

Again, this narrative that PvP players wanted to nerf proc sets...

PvP players wanted to nerf Crimson, Vat 2h and destro and a handful of other sets like unleashed, syvaras etc.

PvP players wanted a fine tuning approach to some items, not a sledgehammer to how all proc sets worked.

the1andonlyskwex · June 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

I wrote extensively on this during the PTS. You can view the analysis and subsequent discussion here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572775/7-0-2-proc-set-changes-the-death-of-proc-sets-in-pve/p1

Indeed. For weeks we warned that Update 30 ruins PvE builds for too many customers. And for what? To please the less than 1% of customers playing PvP? ZOS, PLEASE ADJUST PVP VIA BATTLE SPIRIT instead of RUINING THE PVE EXPERIENCE.

Sets that use Spell Damage now require 6574 Spell Damage to reach their original values. WHAT? Not even with 2k CP my mag builds can come near this value. All my LightArmor toons only have around 3xxx Spell Damage. So all my LA mag toons lose about -50% Proc damage. So all proc sets now are dead for 90% of magicka builds. This is just another example of balancing with a sledgehammer, nerfing most PvE mag builds into OBLIVION.

[snip]

Again, this narrative that PvP players wanted to nerf proc sets...

PvP players wanted to nerf Crimson, Vat 2h and destro and a handful of other sets like unleashed, syvaras etc.

PvP players wanted a fine tuning approach to some items, not a sledgehammer to how all proc sets worked.

When ZOS first announced this change there was actually someone who bragged on the first page of comments about how they had been the first to suggest scaling procs based on stats:

Firstmep wrote: »

I just wanna point out that I was the first one to suggest the proc scaling.
Thank you!

I also remember the idea getting quite a lot of traction when it previously came up in the forums.

This is absolutely a case of a small group of forum PvPers getting exactly what they asked for (even if the specific implementation isn't quite what some of them had in mind when making their request).

Elo106 · June 2021

We reported this early on, stacking Weapon damage and max Mag is much easier than stacking Spell damage and max Stam
sets should scale accordingly.

No Zos response as per usual, no dev comment regarding the issue. Do they not know or care?
Atleast they admit to poor communication, a shame they dont want to do anything about it.