Is anyone else annoyed when somone insists the Dark Brotherhood is good/notevil/vigilante justice?

Adventurer · May 2021

DB has always been evil in the series, and this game makes it very clear it is evil in this game. So it's surprising whenever I hear people say the opposite and try to argue that they're not evil, they do vigilante justice and that they don't kill innocents.

Today I actually had someone say that and argue that they think this.

That they think not only that the DB is good and only kill evil people, no innocents, but that
*spoilers for endgame DB DLC*

the Purification was ordered by a spy in the DB, and Primate Artorius had a spy (the Speaker who ordered it, how ridiculous! The game makes it clear there was no spy and the Speaker was legitimate, nothing implies otherwise) in the DB that did it, since they don't believe the DB would order a Purification to kill the traitor(s)?

There is no evidence for (spoilers above) it, and the DB says they kill without caring whether the person is evil or not. The contracts say usually whether the person is good or evil, and you have all kinds of people in this DLC. The game literally starts with you needing to kill an innocent in Anvil to get into the DB.

Froil · May 2021

The Dark Brotherhood aren't good or bad. They're a muddy shade of some color.

Are there homicidal killers among them that would gladly turn people inside out and make them suffer? Yes. Others just do what they're good at.
Can they mete out vigilante justice? If a corrupt politician were to have a contract on their head from some upset citizens, whether nobles or commoners, then yes.
Many members have no qualms or make no distinction on whether someone is "good", "evil" or "innocent". Some people just need to die or were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't mean they'll just go on murder sprees.

There's a lot of the quasi-religious stuff that some members view as an absolute, and it can even be seen in dialogue choices, while others see it as a façade, hocus pocus mumbo jumbo or are otherwise indifferent to "Hail SIthis!". Some claim the lives they take for Sithis, some don't.

All in all it's just a mixed bag like nearly everything else in the world.

Ryuvain · May 2021

Id consider them more on the evil side, but something like death.

Death is never good really, and it comes to anyone. Sure there are murderers who cause it, but it's really up to whoever used the contract. They could aim at a crime lord or a hero, regardless they will try to kill them.

I picture them as more a weapon of death like a knife or gun. It's a weapon, sure, but who's holding it and what is their intent?

Hidden agendas, traitors, and conspirators aside.

colossalvoids · May 2021

Depends on your personal perspective. Tes games never stated db as a "completely evil" organisation, most of the times even giving obvious justifications or clues as to why the victim was condemned, only you to decide at the end. It's more of a grey one, a tool of inevitable death. Like, is wind or fire an evil force destroying houses and forests? Poisonous insect killing a child? It isn't enough to get payed for the kill, the words should come to the Listener somehow and we can't just say it's some god-like figure of Sithis who's just evil and such but we have no clue what is it really and how/why it operates. Ask an argonian perhaps, maybe some wood shacks were standing for too long and have no use now, or serving as a good fertilizer for a new fields to come. Maybe not.

Tes isn't a real world, it's a myth and a metaphor, not a representation of some form of objective reality otherwise any murder in-game would be a questionable matter on itself bd related or not.

DirkRavenclaw · May 2021

The Dark Brotherhood is necassery in Tamriel . In Real Life Terms we may classify this Organisation to be Evil or whatever but we are in Tamriel. In Tamriel they are needed to keep the Balance of the World. They are like Bountyhounters, Mercs, Hitmen.Without the DB we would have rampart Murder and Mayhem on the Streets of various Cities throughout Tamriel. They keep Balance and Order same as the Thieves Guild does. So, are the Evil? In Real Life, yes, of course. In Tamrielic Society? Nope, they are a bit like a Police Force that is not only the Cop that comes to you after a tip but is, at the same Time your Judge and Executioner.

RaddlemanNumber7 · May 2021

Is Sithis good or evil? When a member of the Dark Brotherhood is given use of the Blade of Woe to send a soul to Sithis is that good or evil?

The Blade of Woe will not grant its solace to any soul. Why is that do you think?

Try to see past judgements induced by mundane entanglements.

Salvation lies only in the timeless serenity of the Void.

Hail Sithis!

Lugaldu · May 2021

I don't usually think at all about whether DB is good or bad. But it took a long time for my main to join the DB, precisely for the reason "kill an innocent in Anvil". For a long time this task did not suit him because there was no suitable religious background story (worship of Sithis e.g.) or other motivation. Only through many experiences has this task lost it´s "cold-blooded touch", because so often we are forced through quests to take a certain side and kill the declared opponents. But you might as well have been on the other side. This becomes very clear in Coldharbour when one has to choose between the Lamia and the Bosmer. So you can say that at some point my main was so emotionally dulled that this task no longer seemed questionable or cold-blooded.

Actually, that sounds kind of depressing.

Integral1900 · May 2021

Yes they are evil, there is no way around that, just listening to the dialogue during the quest makes it abundantly clear that they are fully accepting of this.

The other part, which is a bit problematic considering how much I enjoyed the storyline, is that an assassination brotherhood like this doesn’t make a lot of sense. Historically speaking have been organisations of killers for hire but generally they do not last very long as they pose an existential threat to any stable authority and are almost inevitably annihilated the moment they have served their purpose.

Hence the old saying that the first rule of assassination, is to kill the assassins once the task is done

Things like the dark brotherhood only work in fantasy settings because in reality they simply wouldn’t exist for very long, a few decades, maybe a century at most. Also it would be nice to be able to do writs without hearing some innocent civilian having their head sawed off behind me!

Savince · May 2021

I participated DB because I wanted to have Blade of Woe for my assassin Khajiit. You can use it to sneak behind standard human enemies as well not just for those to be killed in DB line. You can't sneak behind daedra or anything like that tho. Just humans.

VaranisArano · May 2021

The Argonian Shadowscales seem to have the most legitimate view of Sithis as Change, and death being necessary for change.

But the Dark Brotherood is evil, guys. If you don't think so, consider one of the assassins from Oblivion: "For example, this one time I had a contract to kill a little Nord girl at her birthday party. She asked me if I was the jester! So I said to her."No, I am a messenger of death." You should have seen the look on her face! Ha ha ha ha! Anyway, she won't be seeing age six!"

Just because they do some vigilante justice, like Muiri's contract from Skyrim, doesn't make them less evil. If Muiri had wanted to, she could've hired the Companions to go beat Alain up and taken that evidence to the Shattershields instead. But that's not at all what happens.

Even the Morag Tong is legal and necessary in Morrowind's clan structure to keep the Houses from tearing themselves apart in feuds, but that doesn't make their actions less evil. We see that in Hakoshae, where a Morag Tong assassin is perfectly prepared to murder the inoffensive mayor if she's descended from the Potentate.

I think the various Assassin Guilds get a lot of benefit from "protagonist-centered morality". Objectively and in-universe, they are evil. Sometimes necessary, but still evil.

RemanCyrodiil_I · May 2021

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jaws343 · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

The Argonian Shadowscales seem to have the most legitimate view of Sithis as Change, and death being necessary for change.

But the Dark Brotherood is evil, guys. If you don't think so, consider one of the assassins from Oblivion: "For example, this one time I had a contract to kill a little Nord girl at her birthday party. She asked me if I was the jester! So I said to her."No, I am a messenger of death." You should have seen the look on her face! Ha ha ha ha! Anyway, she won't be seeing age six!"

Just because they do some vigilante justice, like Muiri's contract from Skyrim, doesn't make them less evil. If Muiri had wanted to, she could've hired the Companions to go beat Alain up and taken that evidence to the Shattershields instead. But that's not at all what happens.

Even the Morag Tong is legal and necessary in Morrowind's clan structure to keep the Houses from tearing themselves apart in feuds, but that doesn't make their actions less evil. We see that in Hakoshae, where a Morag Tong assassin is perfectly prepared to murder the inoffensive mayor if she's descended from the Potentate.

I think the various Assassin Guilds get a lot of benefit from "protagonist-centered morality". Objectively and in-universe, they are evil. Sometimes necessary, but still evil.

I view it slightly differently.

Contracts come through the Night Mother, so it is never the Brotherhood who are choosing the contracts. For me, the Night Mother and Sithis are choosing worthy targets to kill for whatever greater universe plan. So if say, a 6 year old girl is contracted for death, maybe this girl was a future monster who absolutely murdered thousands of people, and by allowing this contract to be passed onto the Brotherhood for execution, the Sithis, through the Night Mother, is guiding the progress of Nirn.

One thing we almost never see are the contracts that weren't passed along. I imagine their are a ton of non-worthy Sacraments performed that are not given to the Brotherhood by Sithis.

So maybe there is evil intent, but it's hard to say without knowing why specific Sacraments are passed along to the Brotherhood.

VaranisArano · May 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The Argonian Shadowscales seem to have the most legitimate view of Sithis as Change, and death being necessary for change.

But the Dark Brotherood is evil, guys. If you don't think so, consider one of the assassins from Oblivion: "For example, this one time I had a contract to kill a little Nord girl at her birthday party. She asked me if I was the jester! So I said to her."No, I am a messenger of death." You should have seen the look on her face! Ha ha ha ha! Anyway, she won't be seeing age six!"

Just because they do some vigilante justice, like Muiri's contract from Skyrim, doesn't make them less evil. If Muiri had wanted to, she could've hired the Companions to go beat Alain up and taken that evidence to the Shattershields instead. But that's not at all what happens.

Even the Morag Tong is legal and necessary in Morrowind's clan structure to keep the Houses from tearing themselves apart in feuds, but that doesn't make their actions less evil. We see that in Hakoshae, where a Morag Tong assassin is perfectly prepared to murder the inoffensive mayor if she's descended from the Potentate.

I think the various Assassin Guilds get a lot of benefit from "protagonist-centered morality". Objectively and in-universe, they are evil. Sometimes necessary, but still evil.

I view it slightly differently.

Contracts come through the Night Mother, so it is never the Brotherhood who are choosing the contracts. For me, the Night Mother and Sithis are choosing worthy targets to kill for whatever greater universe plan. So if say, a 6 year old girl is contracted for death, maybe this girl was a future monster who absolutely murdered thousands of people, and by allowing this contract to be passed onto the Brotherhood for execution, the Sithis, through the Night Mother, is guiding the progress of Nirn.

One thing we almost never see are the contracts that weren't passed along. I imagine their are a ton of non-worthy Sacraments performed that are not given to the Brotherhood by Sithis.

So maybe there is evil intent, but it's hard to say without knowing why specific Sacraments are passed along to the Brotherhood.

You can view it however you like. It seems like you want to say that Sithis is acting according to "the greater Good" in your example.

But at the point where people are justifying someone putting a contract on a six year old to be killed at her birthday party, Sithis for accepting that victim, and the assassin for fulfilling it...

I'm going to nope right out.

Crazyprophet · May 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Contracts come through the Night Mother, so it is never the Brotherhood who are choosing the contracts.

That's not even the case though.

In the DLC, the Dark Brotherhood regularly accepts and hands out contracts that are not sacrament related. The sacraments are rarer and more important, but they fully admit to just killing for money.

Ratzkifal · May 2021

In a way, especially if the connection to Sithis is taken literally, they are agents of change. Some change can be good or bad, it can be moral or immoral, but the concept of change itself is amoral. They facilitate change and make it easier to happen. I think that is the essence of the Dark Brotherhood and very much in line with Sithis and Padomay.

Nightowl_74 · May 2021

On one hand it's a fictional world and if I accept the existence of various gods and powerful supernatural forces, it's not a huge jump to think that there could be some "behind the scenes" manipulation and more to the story regarding seemingly innocent targets.

On the other, I'm not especially into lore but I don't think there's anything in support of the idea. I do vaguely recall a character with some interesting dialogue that came very close to it, but not well enough to even say whether it was here in ESO or possibly Oblivion or Skyrim. Even saying that is exactly what the character believed, it wouldn't necessarily follow that it's true or even that it's not an evil act if it is true. Killing an evil person is still killing....but it is an interesting subject.

As a reader/fan stuff like that has to be perfectly executed in order to not come across as contrived. Anne Rice completely destroyed the credibility of one of my favorite characters that way.

It doesn't bother me when people decide to believe the DB isn't evil. I don't quite buy it but I'm not absolutely opposed to the notion either and I enjoy the subject.

JMadFour · May 2021

The DB is very much evil. They are a fraternity of murderers-for-hire.

I wasn’t aware that this was under debate.

They are absolutely Lawful Evil.