Why is magic handicap?

Sagetim · May 2021

It’s easy to see. Looking at spell damage why is carrying two swords stronger than caring a distro staff for a magic character? This makes zero sense. Magic players should have higher spell damage with Destro not swords. 7yrs into this game and it still makes no sense

Jackey · May 2021

Swords may give more spell damage but are they stronger than inferno staff pve dps? Doubt.

It's a different story in pvp. Swords might be preferable on a build that is stacking spell damage. Might... I haven't used swords since the benefit was to get an extra 5 piece in your build which haven't been an issue for a long time.

But hey, this sounds more like a lore question rather than a combat question. On this point I agree with you. Why do I get more spell damage when I wield steel swords rather than a staff?

Morgha_Kul · May 2021

I find that normal weapons are better for single targets, staff is better for area effect.

Might just be me, though.

ADarklore · May 2021

Sagetim wrote: »

It’s easy to see. Looking at spell damage why is carrying two swords stronger than caring a distro staff for a magic character? This makes zero sense. Magic players should have higher spell damage with Destro not swords. 7yrs into this game and it still makes no sense

You do realize you ONLY get Magicka resources back with staff, right? So unless you're carrying pots or other means of maintaining Magicka, if you get low you cannot heavy attack your way back.

On previous characters I actually did utilize swords, but soon realized that 1) you cannot do ANY damage with them whatsoever since sword damage is based on weapon damage not spell damage, and 2) when you run low on Magicka you cannot replenish your resources with heavy attacks. Let alone now, Light armor takes big penalties from melee attacks, so you don't even want to be close range. With staff passives, there are also a lot more benefits that aren't strictly 'spell damage.You get absolutely not other benefit from swords other than the increase in spell damage.

FluffWit · May 2021

Magic users are much stronger damage dealers then stam in pve right now. PvP I really don't know, I've done very little of it the last year or so.

Athan1 · May 2021

Magicka isn't a handicap, magicka and stamina builds are balanced.
Swords provide spell damage because they augment a spellsword playstyle.

Blood_again · May 2021

Hey, don't try to take my sword out!
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Mythreindeer · May 2021

You lose the quite large damage benefit of ranged LA with melee weapons, unless of course, you are magicka melee, magdk, magblade, but still unless you have a niche build and know what you're doing, staff.

Oh, ^^^, Gandalf could LA weave with Glamdring at melee range, but he couldn't cast Pulsar lol.

Lephrel · May 2021

Jackey wrote: »

Swords may give more spell damage but are they stronger than inferno staff pve dps? Doubt.

It's a different story in pvp. Swords might be preferable on a build that is stacking spell damage. Might... I haven't used swords since the benefit was to get an extra 5 piece in your build which haven't been an issue for a long time.

Actually, you can outparse inferno with dual daggers on most builds. In pvp, however, dual wield is pretty much non existent on magicka characters, because ranged light attacks (and the access to ele drain) are usually more useful. The only exception to this is probably nb bombing.

ADarklore wrote: »

Sagetim wrote: »

It’s easy to see. Looking at spell damage why is carrying two swords stronger than caring a distro staff for a magic character? This makes zero sense. Magic players should have higher spell damage with Destro not swords. 7yrs into this game and it still makes no sense

You do realize you ONLY get Magicka resources back with staff, right? So unless you're carrying pots or other means of maintaining Magicka, if you get low you cannot heavy attack your way back.

On previous characters I actually did utilize swords, but soon realized that 1) you cannot do ANY damage with them whatsoever since sword damage is based on weapon damage not spell damage, and 2) when you run low on Magicka you cannot replenish your resources with heavy attacks. Let alone now, Light armor takes big penalties from melee attacks, so you don't even want to be close range. With staff passives, there are also a lot more benefits that aren't strictly 'spell damage.You get absolutely not other benefit from swords other than the increase in spell damage.

You do not want to heavy attack with a staff, it's a dps loss. And you can always heavy attack on the back bar, if it is necessary.
All weapon attacks scale off of your highest resources now, so dw should still do decent damage.

ADarklore · May 2021

Lephrel wrote: »

All weapon attacks scale off of your highest resources now, so dw should still do decent damage.

Since when did this happen?!?

Also, wouldn't it be better to have two daggers or even dagger/sword combination to get both crit AND increased spell damage?

Remathilis · May 2021

My vampire magblade traded her frontbar staff for a pair of daggers. I use blood for blood as a spamable (so resource restore isn't as needy and I'm already in melee) and have an inferno backbar for wall of Elements and heavy attacks. It's working great so far, but I don't do a lot of group content with them.

Varana · May 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

All weapon attacks scale off of your highest resources now, so dw should still do decent damage.

Since when did this happen?!?

Also, wouldn't it be better to have two daggers or even dagger/sword combination to get both crit AND increased spell damage?

Yes, that would be better - crit rules in PvE.
That's why we have people dummyhumping with double Siroria daggers now.

Sagetim · May 2021

I run PVP care less about PVE side of the game so that was my fault for not clarifying it in the original post.

For the people that have said "you know you don't get back resources" come on.. my post did say I've been playing 7yrs. I've finely got on the forums because so many things that I've seen should have been addressed by now and fixed and have not seen them yet. I will posting more on this.
For people that want to point out range ability's. Dual wielding has "Hidden Blade". A very hard hitting class ability for range.

I've seen my fair share of magic dual wielding classes that back bar the resto staff for resources management because the class ability's hit harder with dual wielding. No denying that dual welding has an advantage over other weapon skill line but why does the destro staff not keeping up on the spell damage side?

This is unbalanced and does make magic destro handicap. If I am a magic class my destro should be stronger then me have dual wield.

danno8 · May 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

All weapon attacks scale off of your highest resources now, so dw should still do decent damage.

Since when did this happen?!?

Also, wouldn't it be better to have two daggers or even dagger/sword combination to get both crit AND increased spell damage?

Markarth, in November

"All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now dynamically scale with your highest offensive stats"

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7004957/#Comment_7004957

Also, since CP no longer buffs "Staff light/heavy attacks" or "2H light and heavy attacks" etc.. the difference became even closer.

So Dual daggers would give you 7.5% crit on everything, and around 250 more spell damage compared to Staffs 8% single target or AoE buff on select skills as well as increased status effect chances and penetration on Staff skills only.

I have no idea how good this all is since I haven't tested but anecdotally I have heard it will out DPS front bar staff. Back-barring a staff for range/resource returns and Blockade would still be a good idea of course.

ADarklore · May 2021

Sagetim wrote: »

I run PVP care less about PVE side of the game so that was my fault for not clarifying it in the original post.

For the people that have said "you know you don't get back resources" come on.. my post did say I've been playing 7yrs. I've finely got on the forums because so many things that I've seen should have been addressed by now and fixed and have not seen them yet. I will posting more on this.
For people that want to point out range ability's. Dual wielding has "Hidden Blade". A very hard hitting class ability for range.

I've seen my fair share of magic dual wielding classes that back bar the resto staff for resources management because the class ability's hit harder with dual wielding. No denying that dual welding has an advantage over other weapon skill line but why does the destro staff not keeping up on the spell damage side?

This is unbalanced and does make magic destro handicap. If I am a magic class my destro should be stronger then me have dual wield.

Good points... but for myself, I solely PVE and hate PVP... and rarely ever run group dungeons... so resources become difficult when you have to DPS, tank AND heal yourself. In group content, the healer heals so you don't have to spend resources on self-heals, but when soloing, that becomes a factor.

I've purchased a couple of Mother's Sorrow swords and will give it a try on my Magcro since class abilities are on front bar and Destro abilities on back... so destro won't be as important on front bar.

ADarklore · May 2021

danno8 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

All weapon attacks scale off of your highest resources now, so dw should still do decent damage.

Since when did this happen?!?

Also, wouldn't it be better to have two daggers or even dagger/sword combination to get both crit AND increased spell damage?

Markarth, in November

"All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now dynamically scale with your highest offensive stats"

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7004957/#Comment_7004957

Also, since CP no longer buffs "Staff light/heavy attacks" or "2H light and heavy attacks" etc.. the difference became even closer.

So Dual daggers would give you 7.5% crit on everything, and around 250 more spell damage compared to Staffs 8% single target or AoE buff on select skills as well as increased status effect chances and penetration on Staff skills only.

I have no idea how good this all is since I haven't tested but anecdotally I have heard it will out DPS front bar staff. Back-barring a staff for range/resource returns and Blockade would still be a good idea of course.

Thanks for providing the info!!

I think where ZOS really screwed up is making staff passives "Staff skills only"... where previously, as long as you had a staff equipped the passives would proc. Since most staff skills suck... other than Elemental Wall, most people front bar class skills and backbar a staff anyway.

ADarklore · May 2021

I also have another question... exactly WHAT percentage of damage gain over staff are we talking? Since an Inferno staff gives 8% damage increase to any single target ability and Lightning gives 8% to AoE abilities... this would not be a gain unless it gives over 8% increase. Also, it really takes away light attack weaving as well when you drop the staff.

Lephrel · May 2021

Sagetim wrote: »

I run PVP care less about PVE side of the game so that was my fault for not clarifying it in the original post.

For the people that have said "you know you don't get back resources" come on.. my post did say I've been playing 7yrs. I've finely got on the forums because so many things that I've seen should have been addressed by now and fixed and have not seen them yet. I will posting more on this.
For people that want to point out range ability's. Dual wielding has "Hidden Blade". A very hard hitting class ability for range.

I've seen my fair share of magic dual wielding classes that back bar the resto staff for resources management because the class ability's hit harder with dual wielding. No denying that dual welding has an advantage over other weapon skill line but why does the destro staff not keeping up on the spell damage side?

This is unbalanced and does make magic destro handicap. If I am a magic class my destro should be stronger then me have dual wield.

But in PvP destro IS stronger than dual wield. Which class are you playing? I can't think of anything that would actually slot dual wield swords (apart from bomblade and mayyybe a magplar/dk). For years people have actually been complaining about the fact that dual wield is useless on magicka classes. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a buff to magicka for pvp, but I don't think the problem lies with destruction staves not providing enough spell damage. And buffing staves would probably cause more balance issues in PvE...

danno8 · May 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

I also have another question... exactly WHAT percentage of damage gain over staff are we talking? Since an Inferno staff gives 8% damage increase to any single target ability and Lightning gives 8% to AoE abilities... this would not be a gain unless it gives over 8% increase. Also, it really takes away light attack weaving as well when you drop the staff.

The 8% staff passives only work when you are holding the staff. If you switch bars to Dual wield or from Fire to Lightning, those passives stop working. Considering most builds use both AoE and single target, it would depend on how much of your damage comes from either source. Using Combat Metrics on a dummy would be the best way. But assuming a 50/50 split at best you would get a 4% increase on total damage, certainly not the 8% all the time.

In regards to weaving, yes that's a downside, but less so for DK/Templar or anyone who uses Melee primarily.

I don't think either Dual or Staff is better in all situations, although I feel like staff is the more well rounded choice for flexibility and I like that there can be variability like that. I don't like that magic is only staves, but stamina is Dual, 2H or Bow, or even S+B (although both magic and stamina use it).

Malkiv · May 2021

ADarklore wrote: »

I also have another question... exactly WHAT percentage of damage gain over staff are we talking? Since an Inferno staff gives 8% damage increase to any single target ability and Lightning gives 8% to AoE abilities... this would not be a gain unless it gives over 8% increase. Also, it really takes away light attack weaving as well when you drop the staff.

That varies greatly depending on content. If you're fighting bosses in which you can stack with minimal movement (e.g. Sunspire Dragons), then dual wield daggers are a better option for the increased critical. If you're fighting bosses that remain in motion, or must target swap frequently (e.g. vCR+), then inferno on front and back bar will be the better option for increased damage up-time.

Sagetim wrote: »

I've seen my fair share of magic dual wielding classes that back bar the resto staff for resources management because the class ability's hit harder with dual wielding. No denying that dual welding has an advantage over other weapon skill line but why does the destro staff not keeping up on the spell damage side?

This is unbalanced and does make magic destro handicap. If I am a magic class my destro should be stronger then me have dual wield.

The trade-off is losing sustained range for additional spell power. Yes, dual wield skill line has a ranged attack, but it's stamina, deals physical damage, and only grants Brutality (which doesn't work for magicka damage scaling). I really don't know anyone that's running Hidden Blade (or its morphs) outside of dueling or other very niche play.

I personally only use dual swords on my MagDK for PVP, and her back bar is a resto. It allows me to run two enchants on front bar, and, like you said, run backbar for defense and resource management. She already has to be in melee range to deal effective damage, so the dual wield setup is significant when I can stay on target. I do miss being able to LA people down at range, though. So there's that.

Holy Warpath · May 2021

When they mentioned the word "Magic" they were referring to just "Magic" base abilities, not Fire, Lightning or Frost. If you take a look at the Magicka Nightblade it has abilities that primary only deal Magic base. He is not talking about spell damage or other types, only Magic.

With this being said I am surprised that ZOS has not created a Magic staff, of course there is already the Fire, Lightning and Frost staff.

Malkiv · May 2021

Counteracter wrote: »

When they mentioned the word "Magic" they were referring to just "Magic" base abilities, not Fire, Lightning or Frost. If you take a look at the Magicka Nightblade it has abilities that primary only deal Magic base. He is not talking about spell damage or other types, only Magic.

With this being said I am surprised that ZOS has not created a Magic staff, of course there is already the Fire, Lightning and Frost staff.

I'm not sure who you are replying to, but the OP was definitely talking about spell damage. Spell damage is even mentioned in the second sentence of the OP.

Holy Warpath · May 2021

Malkiv wrote: »

Counteracter wrote: »

When they mentioned the word "Magic" they were referring to just "Magic" base abilities, not Fire, Lightning or Frost. If you take a look at the Magicka Nightblade it has abilities that primary only deal Magic base. He is not talking about spell damage or other types, only Magic.

With this being said I am surprised that ZOS has not created a Magic staff, of course there is already the Fire, Lightning and Frost staff.

I'm not sure who you are replying to, but the OP was definitely talking about spell damage. Spell damage is even mentioned in the second sentence of the OP.

Sorry I take things literal sometimes. When I saw just the word Magic players, I assumed just Magic base abilities or else they should of used the word Magicka. Just ignore me...

warg_derpin_gdf · May 2021

@sagetim Hmmmmm, I noticed this same thing but it led me to accept that the only work around is focusing on criticals and penetration. Base magic stats aren't gonna get high enough before even the end of the Dragonbreak by the look of it, haha.

Figure, there are the three elemental forms of magic so you can count on at least one weakness there against a foe, then (I apologize if I'm making this up) High Elf has an innate higher magic critical rating right? These two contend against the added critical rating that daggers and swords get along with whatever race does greater damage with swords and I don't think any foe (besides light armor ones) have any particular weakness to swords and such.

Anyway, after that I focused everything on spell critical in the CP tree, magicka points (obv), magicka regeneration, and just sort of blend between sets and boons that boost spell criticals and either penetration or Ultimate point gain boost. Penetration is good for grinds because it keeps things moving faster, and the, uh, Ultimate point boosts make a big difference with the frequency of the DescStaf Ultimate when I focus on tearing through a group dungeon. I mean, I have my spell criticals up to almost %35 so slinging the destruction staff ultimate around is almost like my PC actually being that strong lol.

Kadoozy · May 2021

warg_derpin_gdf wrote: »

@sagetim Hmmmmm, I noticed this same thing but it led me to accept that the only work around is focusing on criticals and penetration. Base magic stats aren't gonna get high enough before even the end of the Dragonbreak by the look of it, haha.

Figure, there are the three elemental forms of magic so you can count on at least one weakness there against a foe, then (I apologize if I'm making this up) High Elf has an innate higher magic critical rating right? These two contend against the added critical rating that daggers and swords get along with whatever race does greater damage with swords and I don't think any foe (besides light armor ones) have any particular weakness to swords and such.

Anyway, after that I focused everything on spell critical in the CP tree, magicka points (obv), magicka regeneration, and just sort of blend between sets and boons that boost spell criticals and either penetration or Ultimate point gain boost. Penetration is good for grinds because it keeps things moving faster, and the, uh, Ultimate point boosts make a big difference with the frequency of the DescStaf Ultimate when I focus on tearing through a group dungeon. I mean, I have my spell criticals up to almost %35 so slinging the destruction staff ultimate around is almost like my PC actually being that strong lol.

Just want to point out that most of this information is very wrong.

tsaescishoeshiner · May 2021

Why would it make sense for a staff to increase someone's magical attacks more? That's not how staves and weapons work in TES. This change is more in line with how other Elder Scrolls games work, but ESO's combat system is so different from the other games', so it's hard to compare.

It's also been great for build diversity—I'm excited to use dual wield or 2h on some of my mag characters, and I even started using shock staff on my stamsorc for PvP.

warg_derpin_gdf · May 2021

Kadoozy wrote: »

warg_derpin_gdf wrote: »

@sagetim Hmmmmm, I noticed this same thing but it led me to accept that the only work around is focusing on criticals and penetration. Base magic stats aren't gonna get high enough before even the end of the Dragonbreak by the look of it, haha.

Figure, there are the three elemental forms of magic so you can count on at least one weakness there against a foe, then (I apologize if I'm making this up) High Elf has an innate higher magic critical rating right? These two contend against the added critical rating that daggers and swords get along with whatever race does greater damage with swords and I don't think any foe (besides light armor ones) have any particular weakness to swords and such.

Anyway, after that I focused everything on spell critical in the CP tree, magicka points (obv), magicka regeneration, and just sort of blend between sets and boons that boost spell criticals and either penetration or Ultimate point gain boost. Penetration is good for grinds because it keeps things moving faster, and the, uh, Ultimate point boosts make a big difference with the frequency of the DescStaf Ultimate when I focus on tearing through a group dungeon. I mean, I have my spell criticals up to almost %35 so slinging the destruction staff ultimate around is almost like my PC actually being that strong lol.

Just want to point out that most of this information is very wrong.

drats. @kadoozy I probably only got the part about critical boosts in the CP tree right, huh

Sagetim · May 2021

Photo https://i.imgur.com/BnKtmyU.jpg

MrDenimChicken · May 2021

It's funny seeing lots of people defending the ridiculousness of what OP is describing.

Destro staff should be inarguably more dmg than using a 2hander. It shouldn't be debatable. The fact that it is debatable shows how poorly this game is designed.

warg_derpin_gdf · May 2021

Here, check it out (Sorry about the Maomer outfit, they are cool looking):

I currently only have the base game + Morrowind DLC. By preference, I began with a high defense/1h+shld Dragonknight in mind, not necessarily high HP because I chose High Elf to focus on magicka.

When the CP system got altered I decided to lean toward magic danage for variety because the physical building seem straightfoward. In this image I have Meridia's Blessed Armor and Storm Knight because I'm a paranoid mess when it comes to adventuring and I want. that. defense! And I currently have whatever Mundus boon grants spell penetration. Why phys and mgk penetration are equal I have no idea.
With the critical rating at 27.7% there, I can boost it with the full (or even just 4pc) Mother's Sorrow set, 2 pieces from the War-Maiden set (or just the 2H War Maiden Staff) and whatever other set and boon to add the finishing touches to spell critical. Sitting duck tho defense wise.

https://www.snapfish.com/library/photos/pgvw/siav/aid/122947365739060

ADarklore · May 2021

Sagetim wrote: »

Photo: [url=]https://imgur.com/a/hKQEUim[/url]

SO... your weapon damage went up roughly by 500... what exactly does that translate to as far as % increase. This is ESO after-all, and their calculations are never as straightforward as they should be.

Funny how so many people are arguing about this... when it's basically 'works on paper' but no so much IRL, other than being situational. Staves bring a lot more to the magicka build than JUST spell damage as has been mentioned previously, and even then, seems to me that dual daggers would be a better option for the increased crit which would translate into more damage done anyway.