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how come dungeon group dont LoS groups of mobs?
seems like more people would in order to AoE everything down quicker. I see people going into these large rooms and its chaos till the group moves on. seems like its left up to the tank to gather those ranged bad guys up.
why is that?
why is that?
1
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furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not everyone knows the tricks, and the people who LOS are usually rushing and don't want to take time to explain.1 -
Viewsfrom6ix✭✭✭✭✭Because most people don't even know about LoS mechanics. There are no major drawbacks if not performed, so there isn't a big pressure to learn about it.0 -
ThoughtRaven✭✭✭✭✭A few reasons:
1) Using LoS to bring mobs together is beyond what most people running dungeons are thinking about/aware of.
2) Even if people are aware of LoS and willing to use it, it often isn't terribly viable.
3) It kind of is the tank's job to pull everything in.Edited by ThoughtRaven on May 22, 2021 10:05PM7 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not having long cooldowns means you can often spam abilities repeatedly, its less crucial to line things up in this game. Other games where casting an AOE may go on a 30 to 60 second cooldown (or longer) often takes LoS more into consideration when you want to hit multiple targets packed tightly together by going around a corner.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
Edited by SirAndy on May 22, 2021 11:20PM5 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LoS works reasonably well with melee mobs. Anything with range will be standing 50 feet away, behind a wall, and still hitting you repeatedly. So you could LoS melee heavy rooms... or you can just go to the middle of those rooms and all the mobs come to you anyway, which is generally much faster.
If the game actually fully blocked mobs from hitting you if there were an obstruction in the way, this would be much more effective. As it stands, it's more trouble than it's worth most times, even worse with a poorly coordinated pug group which would require you to type out the plan while they rush the room anyway.4 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.4 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
Never heard anyone call that LoS, which is why i was confused. As a game programmer, LoS has a very specific meaning to me.
Anyways, herding mobs together to burn them down quickly is certainly something even newer players should know about.
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Starlight_Whisper✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darkspecialist wrote: »seems like more people would in order to AoE everything down quicker. I see people going into these large rooms and its chaos till the group moves on. seems like its left up to the tank to gather those ranged bad guys up.
why is that?
I would be happy if dps didn't run ahead so my tank could do that.1 -
Starlight_Whisper✭✭✭✭✭
✭
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
Never heard anyone call that LoS, which is why i was confused. As a game programmer, LoS has a very specific meaning to me.
Anyways, herding mobs together to burn them down quickly is certainly something even newer players should know about.
What does it mean in game programing?0 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭In random groups I'm happy if players can coordinate their right and left hands to do more than 10k damage.1 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
Never heard anyone call that LoS, which is why i was confused. As a game programmer, LoS has a very specific meaning to me.
Anyways, herding mobs together to burn them down quickly is certainly something even newer players should know about.
Been playing MMO'S for over twenty years and I knew immediately what he meant. But as with a lot of gaming terms it's an abbreviation of the whole tactic. It's basically "exploiting" the Line Of Sight requirements of NPCs, knowing that they don't understand that they are being set up.Edited by Everstorm on May 23, 2021 9:08AM1 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThoughtRaven wrote: »A few reasons:
1) Using LoS to bring mobs together is beyond what most people running dungeons are thinking about/aware of.
2) Even if people are aware of LoS and willing to use it, it often isn't terribly viable.
3) It kind of is the tank's job to pull everything in.
4) When you DO take the initiative to group foes by using LoS, ~5% of the time your group mates actually cooperate in a way that makes it effective and they are impressed by how well it works... and the other 95% of the time they just go on the forums to talk about how they hate people like you that are "rushing" their dungeon experience by doing things efficiently!
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@Starlight_WhisperStarlight_Whisper wrote: »
Line of sight is used in both rendering (ray-casting to see if things are visible or affected by a certain light etc.) as well as things like collision detection for moving objects (weapon projectiles for example, also ray-casting).
It is also used in npc ai, which is probably how it got to be used in the way described in this thread, where npcs can have a detection radius and use LoS to determine if they can see the player or not (again using ray-casting) from their current location.
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Starlight_Whisper✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@Starlight_WhisperStarlight_Whisper wrote: »
Line of sight is used in both rendering (ray-casting to see if things are visible or affected by a certain light etc.) as well as things like collision detection for moving objects (weapon projectiles for example, also ray-casting).
It is also used in npc ai, which is probably how it got to be used in the way described in this thread, where npcs can have a detection radius and use LoS to determine if they can see the player or not (again using ray-casting) from their current location.
Thank you0 -
Icy_Waffles✭✭✭✭✭
✭No one cares about mobs. I’m not slotting AOE and switching to normal setup for each boss in a dungeon.
Fact is the other thing... you don’t have to if you have decent dps. Less dps then you may benefit from more tactics.
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Icy_Waffles wrote: »No one cares about mobs. I’m not slotting AOE and switching to normal setup for each boss in a dungeon.
Fact is the other thing... you don’t have to if you have decent dps. Less dps then you may benefit from more tactics.
It's not really about decent dps though. It's about efficiency.
If there are 5 groups of mobs and it takes 1 rotation to kill a group of mobs. Then you use 5 rotations to kill the five groups. But if you bring the groups together you only need one rotation.
And pretty much any top tier dps build is running at least 2 aoe skills for all fights because they are solid damage over time aoe skills. Not sure what you think a normal setup is. But if you are single target only on mob groups that just sounds like a terrible experience to be in group with.1 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a tank, I'll say one of the main reasons I don't collect everyone by LoSing all of the mobs... is because that means the DDs in the group need to wait patiently while I grab things and pull them somewhere in a nice little stack.
One of my favorite ones is in VoM with the whole group of shriven and dremora in front of Achaeraizur (the daedroth boss). You can grab all of the enemies and pull them into one of the small rooms to the side, and then everything funnels in through the narrow doorway. But it means the whole group needs to go into the door off to the side instead of just Leeroy Jenkins-ing into the room before I can take control, which never happens.
Most of the time, it's just running in and stacking things as they're dying since nobody's gonna wait until there's a perfect stack to start their DPSing. For bosses like the Harvester Sisters in BCII and the Narilmor clones in DoM, I do have more time to try to LoS them and stack them since they don't melt right away, but that does mean that for a bit at the beginning of the fight, I'm just running and taunting (read: not blocking or doing anything else) to get them stacked.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
If you do that with a group that knows the tactic, it's great. If you do that with a group that doesn't know it, group mates get tangled up in the horde and die, and then it takes longer.
And if you try to LOS, but really you are just dragging an aggro train of mobs behind you while the rest of your groupmates struggle to keep up as they are CC'd and slowed by your aggroed mobs...it takes longer for them, but the person rushing ahead has it easy.
In short, when LOS works, it works really well.
When it doesn't, I find it ends up making the run longer.0 -
Brenticus12✭✭✭As you can see from the comments on this thread, it's because a majority of the playerbase are bad at the game and don't even understand the concept of using LoS to group up adds.2
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
If you do that with a group that knows the tactic, it's great. If you do that with a group that doesn't know it, group mates get tangled up in the horde and die, and then it takes longer.
And if you try to LOS, but really you are just dragging an aggro train of mobs behind you while the rest of your groupmates struggle to keep up as they are CC'd and slowed by your aggroed mobs...it takes longer for them, but the person rushing ahead has it easy.
In short, when LOS works, it works really well.
When it doesn't, I find it ends up making the run longer.
For sure. But I think that's kind of the point of the op. If people would learn and use the best tactics for a fight things would go smoother.
A really great example of this is the Foreman Llothan fight in Darkshade 1.
When the boss spawns in, if the entire group stays behind the mushroom Llothan won't teleport around the room. A ranged taunt and a group stack at the mushroom and you can burn the boss in one spot. But people rush in, never learn, and needlessly drag the fight out.0 -
ForeverJenn✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure how LoS (Line of Sight) has anything to do with grouping mobs in a central place so they stay in red as long as possible?
I mean, your own example mentions a large room where everyone can see everything, thus everyone has LoS to everything.
I'm confused ...
LOS means to aggro the enemies in a room and then move out of their line of sight, like around a bend in a corridor. This causes all of the melee enemies to follow you around the corner, grouping them all together, and it also causes all of the ranged enemies to group together. And then you can drag the melee enemies back to the ranged enemies and burn them all down at once. Making it more efficient to kill a room of enemies instead of having to kill them in bits and pieces.
A great example is the giant room in Elden Hollow right before the last boss. If you aggro the entire room and then go down the corridor where the alit boss is and move just a bit down the corner the entire room of enemies will follow and group up and 1 ult dump with kill the entire room.
Another great line of sight spot is in Banished Cells with the two harvesters. If the tank taunts them both and the runs around behind one of the pillars, it causes both bosses to follow and stack next to one another. Allowing the group to hit both with aoes at the same time and easily switch back and forth with single target skills while the shields are down.
If you do that with a group that knows the tactic, it's great. If you do that with a group that doesn't know it, group mates get tangled up in the horde and die, and then it takes longer.
And if you try to LOS, but really you are just dragging an aggro train of mobs behind you while the rest of your groupmates struggle to keep up as they are CC'd and slowed by your aggroed mobs...it takes longer for them, but the person rushing ahead has it easy.
In short, when LOS works, it works really well.
When it doesn't, I find it ends up making the run longer.
For sure. But I think that's kind of the point of the op. If people would learn and use the best tactics for a fight things would go smoother.
A really great example of this is the Foreman Llothan fight in Darkshade 1.
When the boss spawns in, if the entire group stays behind the mushroom Llothan won't teleport around the room. A ranged taunt and a group stack at the mushroom and you can burn the boss in one spot. But people rush in, never learn, and needlessly drag the fight out.
You can't rush that fight. You have to wait for dialog as he walks down the ramp. Try offering the tip. No one would be EXPECTED to know if no one told them1