A note to Caluurion's users regarding proc scaling

Urzigurumash · May 2021

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

"and nothing of value was lost..."

Urzigurumash · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

"and nothing of value was lost..."

That depends whom you ask, if you ask a longtime BGs MagNB, maybe they feel differently. One of the most interesting things to me about this last proc meta was how Caluurion's went from MagNB only, to popular on MagSorcs. At least in my experience.

Unified_Gaming · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

If you use it on a stam build then you get a massive buff. Don't you love the scaling - p.s. had my tooltip over 25k.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

If you use it on a stam build then you get a massive buff. Don't you love the scaling - p.s. had my tooltip over 25k.

For equivalent pieces of Medium and Light, depends on how many integer sources of Weapon Damage you have before you'd beat out the extra Spell Pen in Light - ignoring Melee weapon passives, since they can be used on a Mag build that doesn't need sustain from Heavies. I think, maybe I'm wrong.

Unified_Gaming · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

If you use it on a stam build then you get a massive buff. Don't you love the scaling - p.s. had my tooltip over 25k.

For equivalent pieces of Medium and Light, depends on how many integer sources of Weapon Damage you have before you'd beat out the extra Spell Pen in Light - ignoring Melee weapon passives, since they can be used on a Mag build that doesn't need sustain from Heavies. I think, maybe I'm wrong.

Thankfully maul gives penetration so you don't really lose much vs la passives but gain 14% weapon damage which allows you to hit 8k+ easily without trying when using stated fury and thus crazy tool tips with nearly equal pen vs light armour. Totally fine.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

when using stated fury

No tooltip from a Sated Fury build is convincing me of anything, I'm going to need to see that in action.

My point there was a Mag build can use the Maul Spell pen along with the LA Spell Pen - so long as they don't need Destro for anything else. If we're talking about building around Caluurion's - if Caluurion's damage is an essential part of a build - I think this is a relevant idea.

Or at least, the scenario is complicated enough I don't think we can say the nature of this proc scaling is inequitably injurious to Mag Caluurion builds without taking into account a number of other recent changes and how they might play out live.

Again, you only have 14% if you have on 7 pieces of Medium. The less sources of Weapon Damage you have - i.e., Serpent instead of Warrior - the less you get out of this passive, whereas the LA passive is constant so long as you have on the same number of LA pieces. If you have on Caluurion's, you're losing out on some possible Weapon Damage from sets which have it as a 2-4 bonus.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

If your point was that a 7 Medium + Bow/Bow + Sated Fury + Molag Kena + Caluurion's + Hunter's Venom (even plus Malacath now if you want to single-bar those 2 procs) is going to be outrageously OP, yeah ok, maybe, let me see that in action before I'm alarmed. That's an extreme, limited-use build. Clunky, squishy, unreliable, etc. Maybe.

Scallan · May 2021

With PVP magblade already being in a really bad spot, the harsh nerf to Caluurion's really kills it for me. It was basically the only super reliable damage I could get in the lagfest that is Cyrodil. Plus I loved the aesthetic, I thought it fit really well with my class.

I'm not going to use Malacath, and I've never wanted to. That's kind of antiethical to a Nightblade, a class which is very focused on high crit chance. You could maybe do it with a stamina build but stamina builds are far more homogeneous with each other than magicka ones are.

Anyways, I'm pretty bummed about all of this.

katorga · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If your point was that a 7 Medium + Bow/Bow + Sated Fury + Molag Kena + Caluurion's + Hunter's Venom (even plus Malacath now if you want to single-bar those 2 procs) is going to be outrageously OP, yeah ok, maybe, let me see that in action before I'm alarmed. That's an extreme, limited-use build. Clunky, squishy, unreliable, etc. Maybe.

Not sure how that is "squishy" on my stamcro. But I'm also not sure why I'd run Caluurions over other options.

ResidentContrarian · May 2021

Scallan wrote: »

With PVP magblade already being in a really bad spot, the harsh nerf to Caluurion's really kills it for me. It was basically the only super reliable damage I could get in the lagfest that is Cyrodil. Plus I loved the aesthetic, I thought it fit really well with my class.

Maybe with some of these proc sets reigned in, ZOS can finally take action on mag DK and mag NB because it's well known in no-proc Cyrodiil that they are the worst classes to be playing right now. There is zero redeeming value on either of them versus every other option, unless you play a heavy one and run in a ball group.

If you ask me, classes should be balanced through their skills and should never have to rely on a proc set. However, ZOS' approach over the years was to nerf class skills whenever a proc set was the problem. That has led to this current bad balance between classes.

What mag DK and mag NB both have in common is that both would typically rely on some DoT damage and burst damage to secure kills. With DoT damage overnerfed and hp regen being able to negate 2-3 DoTs, both classes have to rely on burst that is either easily avoidable or non-existent for the majority of the battle window. It's almost impossible to cleave through hp regen builds on both classes that know what the roll and block buttons do. Then there is the cost of sustaining skills that quickly becomes a problem (though this is a general mag issue, it's more noticeable on these classes because you need more skill casts to do damage and heal than other classes).

Compare mag DK and mag NB burst options to the pressure outputted by shalk, blastbones, curse, dizzy swing, frag/curse, jabs, etc. and you can see exactly how it doesn't really compare to it. Someone will say "but Merciless" - to that I say it simply isn't enough to have a skill that conditional and predictable; it is not like it's always available. A similar argument can be said of leap when people pretend it is the solution to all mag DK issues or a reason they shouldn't get buffed - it's not.

That's ignoring the rest of what other classes have, and what type of buffs are available to them.

While NB has cloak, I don't think that the entire class should be balanced around one skill, similarly to how I don't think templar should be entirely balanced around jabs, and would rather see the skill reigned in for better overall class performance if that is what is necessary for ZOS to actually buff mag NB.

I'd like to see more options with the classes instead of more proc sets to be touted as the solution. NB is still the only class I refuse to bother making a hybrid for, and that's because the mag side has zero redeeming value v. stam.

fred4 · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

Not really. I run a Caluurion and (currently) Zaan magblade in IC. I will not lie. In the current patch, this build actually works about as well as a pure stat-based stamblade, or at least it gets close. I think this may have something to do with Caluurion and Zaan both giving you crit and crit has become more effective. However if I face a pure stat-based stamblade of equal skill, they still have the edge, because they have similar burst and better sustained (spammable) damage. I'll get into why in a moment.

Can you build a magblade that completely wrecks people with Caluurion or otherwise? I reckon, yes. I've been hit with Soul Assault having a 14K single tick (crit) against my stam DK. Don't actually know what class did that, but magblade was a strong suspect. However this was in the context of an ambush. A whole guild crouching on an IC flag. You can afford to be a complete glass cannon in that context.

I don't play outlier builds aside from the ability to perma-cloak. I like builds that are versatile, mostly solo or duo, and that allow me to stay in a fight, not just gank. Otherwise it's no fun for me, not a truly viable build. This is exceedingly hard on a magblade or at least on a melee magblade. That's what you are when you use Caluurion (and Zaan) though. Caluurion works best when controlled and activated at close range. You're not playing a kiting build with that set. Your aim is to go in close and burst people with some combination of Soul Harvest, Concealed Weapon, Caluurion and Zaan. However this is not enough to outright kill experienced and / or well-built players (nor should it be). You more or less one shot only unsuspecting, inexperienced players.

When Caluurion is used in this way you find yourself having to survive in melee range and continue to fight after your gank fails. I will admit that I don't know everything in this regard. I only rarely use Shadow Image, because I find it an annoying skill to work with. I like movement. Speed and dodge rolls synergise with the nightblade class or, put another way, they basically depend on it. This is where magblade draws the short straw, compared to stamblades, and where you end up making so many compromises that indirectly nerf you damage on a magblade. You need high stam sustain for dodge rolls. A dodge roll is so much more effective than Shadow Image or Race Against Time, because it does not consume a GCD. You also need very high speed and that means Wild Hunt. I've been a magblade for many years before I also started playing stamblade and after countless things tried, this is where I ended up. Nightblade is just better suited to being stamina. Put enough speed and sustain, including stamina sustain, on a magblade and it starts becoming dynamic, fun and effective in PvP. Many people actually give up on this. They say melee magblade is dead. This is not true, but you do need Wild Hunt, stam sustain and ... Caluurion. As a Caluurion magblade, I can tell you that this is what it takes. My spell damage with Major Sorcery is around 3K in CP. It is that low to produce a viable build. As it stands right now, my build will be gutted next patch. 16% from Malacath is no compensation.

As to your specific points: There is no way I will use Malacath. So many reasons. Caluurion has two crit bonuses and crit is IMO essential to nightblades. So is Wild Hunt. As to using mauls, that would be OK, if you were a pure melee magblade. I used to play that for a long time. I used Forward Momentum before Race Against Time was introduced. I eventually switched to using an inferno staff and I've never looked back. It just plays much better. You have a ranged execute, the ranged spectral bow and a ranged heal - Swallow Soul. You can't stay in melee range. Your defense is being always on the move. If the target doesn't flee, then you will have to do so yourself in fairly short order. You gank someone at the edge of a zerg and they don't die, you try to finish them while backing off.

It may sound strange that I rate stamblade higher than a Caluurion magblade. Stamblade tends to finish people with melee skills. It tends to not have the ranged option for that. The thing is, while they have some of the same problems as magblade, they do tend to have higher damage. I run a simple Shacklebreaker / Spriggan build on my stamblade in Cyro and I've hit someone for a 7.5K Incap while they were blocking. I can only dream of hitting them that hard on my magblade.

ScruffyWhiskers · May 2021

fred4 wrote: »

As it stands right now, my build will be gutted next patch. 16% from Malacath is no compensation.

Hey Fred, so how bad is the tool tip on Cal? We played very similar builds back in the day. I was thinking of coming back in June but this looks pretty awful. What is the tool tip with about 3k spell damage?

fred4 · May 2021

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

As it stands right now, my build will be gutted next patch. 16% from Malacath is no compensation.

Hey Fred, so how bad is the tool tip on Cal? We played very similar builds back in the day. I was thinking of coming back in June but this looks pretty awful. What is the tool tip with about 3k spell damage?

As far as I know it scales completely linearly, so it will be less than half of what it is on live.

WreckfulAbandon · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

"and nothing of value was lost..."

I've never felt bad for mNB, maybe because I know how strong they are in 1v1 and open world. Not the best 1vX class at all but strong in the other 2 categories.

fred4 · May 2021

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

"and nothing of value was lost..."

I've never felt bad for mNB, maybe because I know how strong they are in 1v1 and open world. Not the best 1vX class at all but strong in the other 2 categories.

I think you're confusing them with stamblades

. Try to find a magblade in open world. That alone is hard and don't say it's because they're all perma-cloaking. If that was the case, if they have to be that careful, then you also know there's a problem. Yeah, there are some good duellers and a few bombers and some Caluurion magblades, but then count the number of stamblades, please, or the number of sorcs, and just how hard they hit you.

fred4 · May 2021

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're upset with the loss of tooltip from giving Caluurion's Spell Damage scaling: now you can put on Malacath.

If you're upset that Caluurion's builds were nerfed more than other proc setups: Most of them were using Malacath, which has been nerfed.

Good points right, or no?

If you use it on a stam build then you get a massive buff. Don't you love the scaling - p.s. had my tooltip over 25k.

Looks like my Breton will have to become a Caluurion stamblade. Travesty!

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

How about we just delete Caluurion's and instead buff magblade? The spec isn't necessarily "bad" but it gets forced into a small handful of narrow builds/playstyles. A reliable class burst self heal would go a long way.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

Good points made by all. Hardly my area of expertise here, just a thought I had that I hadn't seen discussed.

My overall point is that probably MagDKs are the biggest losers out of this proc scaling. MagPlar has a little something extra in Minor Sorcery, Cros/Dens/Sorcs hardly need procs, and as for MagNB, well, at least you can put on Malacath now. It might not be ideal, but DKs were already wearing Malacath, and it's been nerfed.

Scallan · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good points made by all. Hardly my area of expertise here, just a thought I had that I hadn't seen discussed.

My overall point is that probably MagDKs are the biggest losers out of this proc scaling. MagPlar has a little something extra in Minor Sorcery, Cros/Dens/Sorcs hardly need procs, and as for MagNB, well, at least you can put on Malacath now. It might not be ideal, but DKs were already wearing Malacath, and it's been nerfed.

No MagNB is going to use Malacath, mate. The class is heavily based around crit. A good amount of abilities and passives are synergized with it.

The only time I've ever seen NB's rocking Malacath is on a homogenized general-purpose stamina build that any class can use to be viable.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

Scallan wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good points made by all. Hardly my area of expertise here, just a thought I had that I hadn't seen discussed.

My overall point is that probably MagDKs are the biggest losers out of this proc scaling. MagPlar has a little something extra in Minor Sorcery, Cros/Dens/Sorcs hardly need procs, and as for MagNB, well, at least you can put on Malacath now. It might not be ideal, but DKs were already wearing Malacath, and it's been nerfed.

No MagNB is going to use Malacath, mate. The class is heavily based around crit. A good amount of abilities and passives are synergized with it.

The only time I've ever seen NB's rocking Malacath is on a homogenized general-purpose stamina build that any class can use to be viable.

Yeah, and so now an NB can use it without losing so much out of their class kit. By running Caluurion's you were already foregoing some Crit Damage in favor of Proc Damage. Hunter's Venom seemed to have been much more popular than Archer's Mind or Senche's Bite on StamNB during the Malacath era. Again, not saying it's ideal, but it's something at least, compared to what MagDKs get out of this patch. Understood if the point is that every MagNB would sooner drop Caluurion's than put on Malacath - but at least you're getting an increase to another source of damage via some set which takes advantage of Crit Damage. DK has no unique buffs to Crit whatsoever, so the nerf to Malacath and the proc scaling appear to be, for MagDK, a completely unmitigated loss, in terms of inter-class balance.