Homogenization: zones

Primidone · April 2021

For veteran players and explorers, the new zones are getting less and less interesting. I’m not asking you to release a zone that is tantamount to the scale of Skyrim or Oblivion, that would be too demanding. The problem is that each zone contains the exact same elements, which makes it less exciting.

For example, the same old dolmens are given fancy names like harrowstorm, oblivion’s gate, and dragon. But essentially they’re still the boring dolmens just as the ones in Deshaan and Alikr’s desert. Why aren’t there more varieties of world events instead of world bosses and “dolmens”?

If you examine closely, you’ll find that the zones look kinda familiar too—same old stations, merchants, traders, etc. Seriously, who would do writs in Western Skyrim when places like Vivic City in Vvardenfell exists? The new zones emit a vibe stink of artificiality. No dynamic encounters or events, just the same nodes, events, chests and bosses.

Perhaps it’s a good idea to pay attention to map variety, considering how the other aspects of the game—pve, pvp, you name it—are quite broken at this point. Is it toon much to ask for you to fix the game, add more varieties, and not grab some quick money each year by releasing a new chapter? I’m not saying your staff is incompetent, they simply need more time to finish and polish the new content. Your current revenue model is not sustainable at all.

nukk3r · April 2021

Yet the game is going strong after all these years. ESO is what it is and people pay for this exact experience. You have an option to vote with your wallet, though.

Seraphayel · April 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Yet the game is going strong after all these years. ESO is what it is and people pay for this exact experience. You have an option to vote with your wallet, though.

Why must every Chapter be the same? Not the same, but exact the same? If you like it, you have already four Chapters that are like this. Is it so hard to deviate from the formula that became already stale after Summerset?

Elsonso · April 2021

Tamriel is actually pretty uniform, outside of the terrain differences. There are differences in architecture and style, but this place has been around for thousands of years, largely unchanged culturally, and very little of it has never been touched. Most of the cities and places are already named. The cultures are already well known. The races are known, and move all over Tamriel.

One place they get to really go crazy are on the Oblivion planes, but we really don't spend much time there. Outside of Coldharbour, when we do, they pick a place we have already been, which ties their hands. I suppose this means they are planning to revisit Shivering Isles.

They could do the other major continent, but my guess is that ESO is bound to Tamriel until BGS decides they never want to go there.

Comparing the Deadlands gates to the Dark Anchors, Harrowstorms, and Geysers? Really? They are world events, but that is where it stops. I won't say that they are original, since TES 4 did it much the same way, but they certainly are not dark anchors or dragons. These are more of a public dungeon with a random entrance. It is something new, which is pretty much what is being asked for in this thread.

They are going to follow their formula. If you are looking at other games and asking why ESO isn't doing what some other game is doing, the answer to that lies in the question being asked. These things are for some other game.

We will get a number of delves, a number of world bosses, a number of zone events, a number of sets, etc. This makes cadence and planning much easier for them.

nukk3r · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Yet the game is going strong after all these years. ESO is what it is and people pay for this exact experience. You have an option to vote with your wallet, though.

Why must every Chapter be the same? Not the same, but exact the same? If you like it, you have already four Chapters that are like this. Is it so hard to deviate from the formula that became already stale after Summerset?

But this formula works. Every time a new chapter is released, there's a surge of new paying customers. If it wasn't profitable, they'd change something, like they did with One Tamriel.

Primidone · April 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

Tamriel is actually pretty uniform, outside of the terrain differences. There are differences in architecture and style, but this place has been around for thousands of years, largely unchanged culturally, and very little of it has never been touched. Most of the cities and places are already named. The cultures are already well known. The races are known, and move all over Tamriel.

One place they get to really go crazy are on the Oblivion planes, but we really don't spend much time there. Outside of Coldharbour, when we do, they pick a place we have already been, which ties their hands. I suppose this means they are planning to revisit Shivering Isles.

They could do the other major continent, but my guess is that ESO is bound to Tamriel until BGS decides they never want to go there.

Comparing the Deadlands gates to the Dark Anchors, Harrowstorms, and Geysers? Really? They are world events, but that is where it stops. I won't say that they are original, since TES 4 did it much the same way, but they certainly are not dark anchors or dragons. These are more of a public dungeon with a random entrance. It is something new, which is pretty much what is being asked for in this thread.

They are going to follow their formula. If you are looking at other games and asking why ESO isn't doing what some other game is doing, the answer to that lies in the question being asked. These things are for some other game.

We will get a number of delves, a number of world bosses, a number of zone events, a number of sets, etc. This makes cadence and planning much easier for them.

Well if that’s what the majority of the players agrees upon, no wonder they do not feel the necessity to add more variety to new zones. I, for one, think the new chapters look rushed. The answer is simple: the devs clearly weren’t given sufficient time to add in details that would make the world look dynamic, as opposed to stale. This thread was meant for the “explorer” playstyle, not for min-maxers or grinders, so sets don’t matter that much. Perhaps MMO is fundamentally incompatible with this particular playstyle.

zaria · April 2021

I say they provides that is expected. Southern Elsweyr got critic for not having an mini trial or arena.
Now I could accept that if the zone was much larger than overland zones or had much more quests.
It was not, yes the quests was good but that was expected. had it included Corinth as an major quest hub then nice.

Also people complains about companions who is for casual play.
However they might be fun and will be useful farming bosses for mystics.

Primidone · April 2021

zaria wrote: »

I say they provides that is expected. Southern Elsweyr got critic for not having an mini trial or arena.
Now I could accept that if the zone was much larger than overland zones or had much more quests.
It was not, yes the quests was good but that was expected. had it included Corinth as an major quest hub then nice.

Also people complains about companions who is for casual play.
However they might be fun and will be useful farming bosses for mystics.

The problem is the quests obviously aren’t the focal point of the dev team bc only a small number of players actually care about the quests. It’s a vicious cycle: quests aren’t rewarding—players don’t care about quests—less time invested in developing quests—players care even less. Personally, I find the quests too generic for my taste. I couldn’t care less about saving the world; it’s the little things that make the game world feel engaging, such as stray dogs, fake merchant/beggers, NPC daily interactions, etc.

Besides, it’s very possible to be hardcore and casual at the same time. It depends on when you feel like it, and the amount of choices the game provides. Unfortunately, this game doesn’t allow you to be both at the same time. I would love to join 5 trader guilds, 2 endgame PvE guilds, 1 PvP guild and 1 housing guild; but you only have 5 guild slots so you are forced to choose between these identities, which could potentially co-exist at the same time. Not to mention the micromanagement of cp trees.

Elsonso · April 2021

Primidone wrote: »

Well if that’s what the majority of the players agrees upon, no wonder they do not feel the necessity to add more variety to new zones. I, for one, think the new chapters look rushed. The answer is simple: the devs clearly weren’t given sufficient time to add in details that would make the world look dynamic, as opposed to stale. This thread was meant for the “explorer” playstyle, not for min-maxers or grinders, so sets don’t matter that much. Perhaps MMO is fundamentally incompatible with this particular playstyle.

I don't think that MMOs are incompatible with the playstyle. In Elder Scrolls, the world we play in is already defined, except for the implementation details. We've already been to several of these places, in detail.

It is true that they could have taken things a little further, in a few places. Valenwood could have been much more of the large tree dense forest than it is. Alinor could have actually been made of crystal., although I think it is impressive as it is. There are limitations to what they can do with the technology that they are using.

I think that Elsweyr surprised a few people with how it ended up being envisioned. I think that many people were expecting more Alik'r Desert than Grand Canyon.

Now, I will agree that ZOS never finishes these places. Locked doors and missed opportunities for delves and smaller places to explore fill the game and will never be fleshed out. My feeling is that it should be an immutable rule in any Elder Scrolls game that, unless a door is locked for a quest, every door should be able to be opened. This is, however, the extra fine detail.

Primidone · April 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

Primidone wrote: »

Well if that’s what the majority of the players agrees upon, no wonder they do not feel the necessity to add more variety to new zones. I, for one, think the new chapters look rushed. The answer is simple: the devs clearly weren’t given sufficient time to add in details that would make the world look dynamic, as opposed to stale. This thread was meant for the “explorer” playstyle, not for min-maxers or grinders, so sets don’t matter that much. Perhaps MMO is fundamentally incompatible with this particular playstyle.

I don't think that MMOs are incompatible with the playstyle. In Elder Scrolls, the world we play in is already defined, except for the implementation details. We've already been to several of these places, in detail.

It is true that they could have taken things a little further, in a few places. Valenwood could have been much more of the large tree dense forest than it is. Alinor could have actually been made of crystal., although I think it is impressive as it is. There are limitations to what they can do with the technology that they are using.

I think that Elsweyr surprised a few people with how it ended up being envisioned. I think that many people were expecting more Alik'r Desert than Grand Canyon.

Now, I will agree that ZOS never finishes these places. Locked doors and missed opportunities for delves and smaller places to explore fill the game and will never be fleshed out. My feeling is that it should be an immutable rule in any Elder Scrolls game that, unless a door is locked for a quest, every door should be able to be opened. This is, however, the extra fine detail.

In old games such as Assassin’s Creed 2, players aren’t able to open the doors because of technical limitation. Nowadays, locked doors are usually implemented to reduce the amount of work the devs have to do to fill the map. Even in highly polished games like Red Dead 2, there’re still doors that the players are not able to open. That’s understandable considering the amount of extra work.

The problem is with the doors that do open: there aren’t many new, exciting things in them. Just same old containers, interiors, and NPCs. The NPCs are exceptionally boring, with most of them serving no purpose but to be pickpocketed and killed by the players. They are not convincing at all.

ThorianB · April 2021

Primidone wrote: »

For veteran players and explorers, the new zones are getting less and less interesting. I’m not asking you to release a zone that is tantamount to the scale of Skyrim or Oblivion, that would be too demanding. The problem is that each zone contains the exact same elements, which makes it less exciting.

I disagree. I think the zones are all uniquely different without looking like they came from another game. Zones need to make sense both to lore and in relation to other zones. They need to show influence of the cultures that live/rule there.

For example, the same old dolmens are given fancy names like harrowstorm, oblivion’s gate, and dragon. But essentially they’re still the boring dolmens just as the ones in Deshaan and Alikr’s desert. Why aren’t there more varieties of world events instead of world bosses and “dolmens”?

I would like to see some variety to world events or bosses rather than the same formula used over and over like a factory. I don't feel dragons and harrowstorms are like dolmens though. Oblivion portals are more like public dungeons and not like dolmens dragons and harrowstorms.

If you examine closely, you’ll find that the zones look kinda familiar too—same old stations, merchants, traders, etc. Seriously, who would do writs in Western Skyrim when places like Vivic City in Vvardenfell exists? The new zones emit a vibe stink of artificiality. No dynamic encounters or events, just the same nodes, events, chests and bosses.

I get where you are coming from with the new content production formula here, but i find uniqueness in many zones. I like multiple cities in ESO because of their design aesthetics. I like going to different zones because i feel like i am going to different places. The only problem i have is they use the same predictable formula each year to create new content. Predictable is great when you buy a car, not a video game. You want to be surprised. You want some uniqueness to new content not A+B =C.

Perhaps it’s a good idea to pay attention to map variety, considering how the other aspects of the game—pve, pvp, you name it—are quite broken at this point. Is it toon much to ask for you to fix the game, add more varieties, and not grab some quick money each year by releasing a new chapter? I’m not saying your staff is incompetent, they simply need more time to finish and polish the new content. Your current revenue model is not sustainable at all.

Broken is an overused word to me. People say things are broken when they don't work the way they want them too. PVP is a mess but the devs already have proven that PVP isn't really something they care a lot about. Why people keep expecting them to suddenly care and want to make ESO into a great PVP game is beyond me. I wouldn't say PVE is broken at all. They would also disagree with you on their current model since the are gaining players at a very quick pace especially for a game that is 7 years old. 20% increase in players in 2020 alone and they have increased the player base every year since One Tamriel. So history and statistics say that what they are doing is working very well and there is no reason to change it.

I agree with a few of your points. Id like to be surprised by the new content rather than know all the ingredients in the dish before i even know what the dish is going to be. I would like to see creativity and originality to content...but its probably not going to happen because what they got works so why change it?

Seraphayel · April 2021

nukk3r wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Yet the game is going strong after all these years. ESO is what it is and people pay for this exact experience. You have an option to vote with your wallet, though.

Why must every Chapter be the same? Not the same, but exact the same? If you like it, you have already four Chapters that are like this. Is it so hard to deviate from the formula that became already stale after Summerset?

But this formula works. Every time a new chapter is released, there's a surge of new paying customers. If it wasn't profitable, they'd change something, like they did with One Tamriel.

Who says there’s a surge? I doubt ESO is attracting so many new players with each Chapter. The numbers they report are very vague and don’t tell us anything. I know players that have multiple accounts and that’s not surprising when an ESO key just costs $5.

And I never said it wasn’t profitable. It’s just incredibly predictable and stale. Does it bring money? Sure. So does Call of Duty Nr. 826. But that’s not the point. It gets boring very quick and that’s exactly the case as there’s nothing new or fresh to the game anymore. It’s the same menu every year. It still feeds your hunger, but it doesn’t excite you.

Elsonso · April 2021

Primidone wrote: »

In old games such as Assassin’s Creed 2, players aren’t able to open the doors because of technical limitation. Nowadays, locked doors are usually implemented to reduce the amount of work the devs have to do to fill the map. Even in highly polished games like Red Dead 2, there’re still doors that the players are not able to open. That’s understandable considering the amount of extra work.

The problem is with the doors that do open: there aren’t many new, exciting things in them. Just same old containers, interiors, and NPCs. The NPCs are exceptionally boring, with most of them serving no purpose but to be pickpocketed and killed by the players. They are not convincing at all.

Yes, they do tend to be boring, but exploration is about going into places, not just exciting places.

In this game, the locked doors are probably just that there are no devs to make the interior spaces. There is also the Justice System to take into account, since all the containers in these places should probably be stealing. That brings up how much gold players will be getting from fences, whether they will be providing too many rare or unusual items, etc. It isn't just monster combat that can make the game easy.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Who says there’s a surge? I doubt ESO is attracting so many new players with each Chapter.

Yeah, attracting new players is a main reason for the chapters and the whole year long thing. If it wasn't doing that, they would switch to something that did. Besides, I am sure that Firor has said that this happens in one interview or another.

New players are coming from somewhere, and it isn't from millions of existing players getting second accounts for $5.

nukk3r · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Yet the game is going strong after all these years. ESO is what it is and people pay for this exact experience. You have an option to vote with your wallet, though.

Why must every Chapter be the same? Not the same, but exact the same? If you like it, you have already four Chapters that are like this. Is it so hard to deviate from the formula that became already stale after Summerset?

But this formula works. Every time a new chapter is released, there's a surge of new paying customers. If it wasn't profitable, they'd change something, like they did with One Tamriel.

Who says there’s a surge? I doubt ESO is attracting so many new players with each Chapter. The numbers they report are very vague and don’t tell us anything. I know players that have multiple accounts and that’s not surprising when an ESO key just costs $5.

And I never said it wasn’t profitable. It’s just incredibly predictable and stale. Does it bring money? Sure. So does Call of Duty Nr. 826. But that’s not the point. It gets boring very quick and that’s exactly the case as there’s nothing new or fresh to the game anymore. It’s the same menu every year. It still feeds your hunger, but it doesn’t excite you.

If you look at steam charts, you'll see spikes in concurrent players at the months when preorder was opened. That's the only data that's open but we can extrapolate.

Well, you don't go to McDonalds to buy pizza. I'm also not happy with the same old 6 delves and 2 PDs menu every year, but we can either play or find something else. You see the amount of outrage from players every quarter when patch notes are released, even for the minor changes. Now imagine what could happen if ZOS decided to drastically change something that defines the game. It's an equal chance to gain new players or lose half the population. But why take the risk if the current model works fine?

Thechuckage · April 2021

One thing that really stood out, not in a good way, was the wildlife in eslwyr. It has every stinking animal type all mashed into one zone. That was jarring as all heck.

Look at stonefalls or deshaan. Then look at glenumbra. Unique and separate. Not a giant mashup of everything under the sun.
That's without touching on a number of the animals are just renamed and palette swapped. Wolf? No no, thats a sand jackal....

I happen to like zones having distinct flavors, rather than tossing everything under the sun into the pot with some food coloring.