Recremen wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Limiting group size to 12 mathematically accomplishes exactly zero things. There are no heals, buffs, or item sets that go past 12 players, and most are capped far far below that at 2-6. Thus, at 12 players you still have the AoE checks constantly going out at the same rate as before. It does nothing except make social people who have more than 11 friends have to do extra work just to play together.

If there was ever a bug where grouping was impossible, and you feel like lag issues "went away" as a result, the answer is obvious: none of the big coordinated groups were playing. If you have a bunch of pugs running around bow light attacking each other, then of course you're going to see less lag, there's no AoE checks going out. If you want big and interesting fights going on, though, then as mentioned above with the math, limiting to 12 players does exactly nothing.

You clearly do not understand smart healing, no the point is that smaller group and limiting heals to only group the server when you hit rapid regen or use a proc like earthgore no longer has to look at people outside your group or within a large 12+ man and within a split second decide thru all its checks who gets the heal due to there their health. It no longer has to check everyone within the huge radius and see who needs the heal then fire off to them, its just to take that much work off of the servers without changing core mechanics of the game that have been in place for years like they proposed

Big oof on your part trying to argue that smart heals with a lower group size are going to significantly impact the lag. Smart heals are giant AoEs whose only saving grace is that they prefer group members first, meaning the first pass of AoE targeting will pull from a smaller pool. However! It will still hit people outside your group. My testing indicates that as long as people in your group have the buff, you will then start hitting people outside the group. That means, contrary to your initial statement, that having a smaller group is more risky for server lag than having a larger group because it's more likely that your group all has the HoT already, thus making the server start checking everyone other valid target. I'm sure generating the actual probability table would be horrendously complicated, but at any rate, you appear to be completely wrong about smart heals and group size, at least for values of 12 versus 24.

Also, having 24 friends in a group together is just as much of a core mechanic of the game as spammable AoEs. Have some empathy for people that want to play together. And please advocate for ideas that would actually work to reduce lag instead of jumping on this tired old mathematically-disproven concept. I really doubt I'm the first one to point out that this suggestion would not actually do anything.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Limiting group size to 12 mathematically accomplishes exactly zero things. There are no heals, buffs, or item sets that go past 12 players, and most are capped far far below that at 2-6. Thus, at 12 players you still have the AoE checks constantly going out at the same rate as before. It does nothing except make social people who have more than 11 friends have to do extra work just to play together.

If there was ever a bug where grouping was impossible, and you feel like lag issues "went away" as a result, the answer is obvious: none of the big coordinated groups were playing. If you have a bunch of pugs running around bow light attacking each other, then of course you're going to see less lag, there's no AoE checks going out. If you want big and interesting fights going on, though, then as mentioned above with the math, limiting to 12 players does exactly nothing.

You clearly do not understand smart healing, no the point is that smaller group and limiting heals to only group the server when you hit rapid regen or use a proc like earthgore no longer has to look at people outside your group or within a large 12+ man and within a split second decide thru all its checks who gets the heal due to there their health. It no longer has to check everyone within the huge radius and see who needs the heal then fire off to them, its just to take that much work off of the servers without changing core mechanics of the game that have been in place for years like they proposed

Big oof on your part trying to argue that smart heals with a lower group size are going to significantly impact the lag. Smart heals are giant AoEs whose only saving grace is that they prefer group members first, meaning the first pass of AoE targeting will pull from a smaller pool. However! It will still hit people outside your group. My testing indicates that as long as people in your group have the buff, you will then start hitting people outside the group. That means, contrary to your initial statement, that having a smaller group is more risky for server lag than having a larger group because it's more likely that your group all has the HoT already, thus making the server start checking everyone other valid target. I'm sure generating the actual probability table would be horrendously complicated, but at any rate, you appear to be completely wrong about smart heals and group size, at least for values of 12 versus 24.

Also, having 24 friends in a group together is just as much of a core mechanic of the game as spammable AoEs. Have some empathy for people that want to play together. And please advocate for ideas that would actually work to reduce lag instead of jumping on this tired old mathematically-disproven concept. I really doubt I'm the first one to point out that this suggestion would not actually do anything.

This is completely false.

You just said heals are prioritizing people in the group first and if not they will hit people outside of it. If the server is pulling from a list of people in group only, it'd run a check on the group only. If it then goes beyond the group, it's running a pull after that one. Somehow you think this isnt going to be tasking everytime people are popping multiple AOEs as well? What sort of dream world do you live in where the second table pulled there is magically nontasking to the server?

Limiting group sizes wouldnt do much unless they limited heals and buffs in conjunction with it. I believe targeted heals should still be able to heal outside your group. That is, if you cast BoL and are actually targeting a player outside of your group, it would factor them in to be healed. This would allow you to still heal outside the group, but not do so blindly in the area and pull every available person.

Stating being in a 24man is as core to the gameplay as spamming AOEs is probably the most ridiculous part of this post. The combat system, which includes AOEs and how skills work, is cort to the combat system. Groups being size of 24 in Cyro is core to the cyrodiil grouping experience, that is it. Limiting groups to 12 doesnt mean you cant play with friends. Thatd be akin to guilds that run 60+ people in Cyrodiil today saying they cant play with their friends either. The reality is they do every night, they make 2-3 raids with 1 guild.

Saying these changes 'would not actually do anything' is someone that would prefer keeping in any mechanic that will coddle the gameplay experience even if it means everyone playing is lagging out and not even playing the game in a functional state anymore. This is why we have faction stacks doing this exact thing.

Daviiid_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daviiid_ESO wrote: »

Reduce group size to 12 and keep AOE healing and buffs in-group only. Ez fix for lag.

It is easy to suggest such things are easy fixes. Since we know the issue has more to do with the number of skills being used at a specific location the idea does little, if anything, to resolve the issue.

I agree with Joy, that it would be worth a try though it is not expected to solve anything. Heck, performance today is worse than it was back when we had larger populations in Cyrodiil.

If AOE healing is kept in-group only the server won't have to do as many calculations, and simply check who is lowest hp in the group instead of "who of these 90 zerglings around me is the lowest" for every healing skill and buff being cast in cyrodiil. Add this on top of a maximum of 12 in a group and we're there no problem.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Limiting group size to 12 mathematically accomplishes exactly zero things. There are no heals, buffs, or item sets that go past 12 players, and most are capped far far below that at 2-6. Thus, at 12 players you still have the AoE checks constantly going out at the same rate as before. It does nothing except make social people who have more than 11 friends have to do extra work just to play together.

If there was ever a bug where grouping was impossible, and you feel like lag issues "went away" as a result, the answer is obvious: none of the big coordinated groups were playing. If you have a bunch of pugs running around bow light attacking each other, then of course you're going to see less lag, there's no AoE checks going out. If you want big and interesting fights going on, though, then as mentioned above with the math, limiting to 12 players does exactly nothing.

You clearly do not understand smart healing, no the point is that smaller group and limiting heals to only group the server when you hit rapid regen or use a proc like earthgore no longer has to look at people outside your group or within a large 12+ man and within a split second decide thru all its checks who gets the heal due to there their health. It no longer has to check everyone within the huge radius and see who needs the heal then fire off to them, its just to take that much work off of the servers without changing core mechanics of the game that have been in place for years like they proposed

Big oof on your part trying to argue that smart heals with a lower group size are going to significantly impact the lag. Smart heals are giant AoEs whose only saving grace is that they prefer group members first, meaning the first pass of AoE targeting will pull from a smaller pool. However! It will still hit people outside your group. My testing indicates that as long as people in your group have the buff, you will then start hitting people outside the group. That means, contrary to your initial statement, that having a smaller group is more risky for server lag than having a larger group because it's more likely that your group all has the HoT already, thus making the server start checking everyone other valid target. I'm sure generating the actual probability table would be horrendously complicated, but at any rate, you appear to be completely wrong about smart heals and group size, at least for values of 12 versus 24.

Also, having 24 friends in a group together is just as much of a core mechanic of the game as spammable AoEs. Have some empathy for people that want to play together. And please advocate for ideas that would actually work to reduce lag instead of jumping on this tired old mathematically-disproven concept. I really doubt I'm the first one to point out that this suggestion would not actually do anything.

This is completely false.

You just said heals are prioritizing people in the group first and if not they will hit people outside of it. If the server is pulling from a list of people in group only, it'd run a check on the group only. If it then goes beyond the group, it's running a pull after that one. Somehow you think this isnt going to be tasking everytime people are popping multiple AOEs as well? What sort of dream world do you live in where the second table pulled there is magically nontasking to the server?

Limiting group sizes wouldnt do much unless they limited heals and buffs in conjunction with it. I believe targeted heals should still be able to heal outside your group. That is, if you cast BoL and are actually targeting a player outside of your group, it would factor them in to be healed. This would allow you to still heal outside the group, but not do so blindly in the area and pull every available person.

Stating being in a 24man is as core to the gameplay as spamming AOEs is probably the most ridiculous part of this post. The combat system, which includes AOEs and how skills work, is cort to the combat system. Groups being size of 24 in Cyro is core to the cyrodiil grouping experience, that is it. Limiting groups to 12 doesnt mean you cant play with friends. Thatd be akin to guilds that run 60+ people in Cyrodiil today saying they cant play with their friends either. The reality is they do every night, they make 2-3 raids with 1 guild.

Saying these changes 'would not actually do anything' is someone that would prefer keeping in any mechanic that will coddle the gameplay experience even if it means everyone playing is lagging out and not even playing the game in a functional state anymore. This is why we have faction stacks doing this exact thing.

[snip] I literally spent the whole first paragraph explaining that the second poll after your group is accounted for does, in fact, lag the server, and that the smaller your group size the more you're at risk for doing so.

[snip] forming large 24-person groups is a core game experience outside Cyrodiil as well. Have you never been in a dolmen grind, zone clear group, holiday event farm group, or any other fun PvE overworld activity? It goes way beyond Cyrodiil. [snip]

[snip] I'm pretty sure I sufficiently explained why reducing group size isn't going to change the lag situation. Meanwhile, I've made plenty of informed suggestions over on the main thread about the AoE tests which might actually help reduce the lag without putting a cooldown on every skill. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Yea, in overland you dont need to be in group with 200 people to clear the dolman either. Just furthers the point this isnt really a big deal to play with friends. You still can play with them, even if the group is broken up so the server doesnt have a heart attack.

The unwillingness to change here is the unwillingness to learn basic group play. You've already shown to lack any real experience in what starts a laggy situation. We have plenty who see it every day on stream. Faction stacks and full raid ball groups. Same issue is always at play.

Kadoin wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Limiting group size to 12 mathematically accomplishes exactly zero things. There are no heals, buffs, or item sets that go past 12 players, and most are capped far far below that at 2-6. Thus, at 12 players you still have the AoE checks constantly going out at the same rate as before. It does nothing except make social people who have more than 11 friends have to do extra work just to play together.

If there was ever a bug where grouping was impossible, and you feel like lag issues "went away" as a result, the answer is obvious: none of the big coordinated groups were playing. If you have a bunch of pugs running around bow light attacking each other, then of course you're going to see less lag, there's no AoE checks going out. If you want big and interesting fights going on, though, then as mentioned above with the math, limiting to 12 players does exactly nothing.

You clearly do not understand smart healing, no the point is that smaller group and limiting heals to only group the server when you hit rapid regen or use a proc like earthgore no longer has to look at people outside your group or within a large 12+ man and within a split second decide thru all its checks who gets the heal due to there their health. It no longer has to check everyone within the huge radius and see who needs the heal then fire off to them, its just to take that much work off of the servers without changing core mechanics of the game that have been in place for years like they proposed

Big oof on your part trying to argue that smart heals with a lower group size are going to significantly impact the lag. Smart heals are giant AoEs whose only saving grace is that they prefer group members first, meaning the first pass of AoE targeting will pull from a smaller pool. However! It will still hit people outside your group. My testing indicates that as long as people in your group have the buff, you will then start hitting people outside the group. That means, contrary to your initial statement, that having a smaller group is more risky for server lag than having a larger group because it's more likely that your group all has the HoT already, thus making the server start checking everyone other valid target. I'm sure generating the actual probability table would be horrendously complicated, but at any rate, you appear to be completely wrong about smart heals and group size, at least for values of 12 versus 24.

Also, having 24 friends in a group together is just as much of a core mechanic of the game as spammable AoEs. Have some empathy for people that want to play together. And please advocate for ideas that would actually work to reduce lag instead of jumping on this tired old mathematically-disproven concept. I really doubt I'm the first one to point out that this suggestion would not actually do anything.

This is completely false.

You just said heals are prioritizing people in the group first and if not they will hit people outside of it. If the server is pulling from a list of people in group only, it'd run a check on the group only. If it then goes beyond the group, it's running a pull after that one. Somehow you think this isnt going to be tasking everytime people are popping multiple AOEs as well? What sort of dream world do you live in where the second table pulled there is magically nontasking to the server?

Limiting group sizes wouldnt do much unless they limited heals and buffs in conjunction with it. I believe targeted heals should still be able to heal outside your group. That is, if you cast BoL and are actually targeting a player outside of your group, it would factor them in to be healed. This would allow you to still heal outside the group, but not do so blindly in the area and pull every available person.

Stating being in a 24man is as core to the gameplay as spamming AOEs is probably the most ridiculous part of this post. The combat system, which includes AOEs and how skills work, is cort to the combat system. Groups being size of 24 in Cyro is core to the cyrodiil grouping experience, that is it. Limiting groups to 12 doesnt mean you cant play with friends. Thatd be akin to guilds that run 60+ people in Cyrodiil today saying they cant play with their friends either. The reality is they do every night, they make 2-3 raids with 1 guild.

Saying these changes 'would not actually do anything' is someone that would prefer keeping in any mechanic that will coddle the gameplay experience even if it means everyone playing is lagging out and not even playing the game in a functional state anymore. This is why we have faction stacks doing this exact thing.

[snip] I literally spent the whole first paragraph explaining that the second poll after your group is accounted for does, in fact, lag the server, and that the smaller your group size the more you're at risk for doing so.

[snip] forming large 24-person groups is a core game experience outside Cyrodiil as well. Have you never been in a dolmen grind, zone clear group, holiday event farm group, or any other fun PvE overworld activity? It goes way beyond Cyrodiil. [snip]

[snip] I'm pretty sure I sufficiently explained why reducing group size isn't going to change the lag situation. Meanwhile, I've made plenty of informed suggestions over on the main thread about the AoE tests which might actually help reduce the lag without putting a cooldown on every skill. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Yea, in overland you dont need to be in group with 200 people to clear the dolman either. Just furthers the point this isnt really a big deal to play with friends. You still can play with them, even if the group is broken up so the server doesnt have a heart attack.

The unwillingness to change here is the unwillingness to learn basic group play. You've already shown to lack any real experience in what starts a laggy situation. We have plenty who see it every day on stream. Faction stacks and full raid ball groups. Same issue is always at play.

You don't need everyone in a trials group to actually be grouped together either, yet it's there anyway as a convenience function. And again, the larger group size is not an issue for the server. The only thing anyone has pointed out that's affected by group size is the first pool the server pulls from for smart heals, which doesn't mean much to begin with as heals are capped at low numbers, and especially doesn't mean much compared to the rest of the AoEs going out that have nothing to do with group size. Trying to make group size an issue is only done in complete ignorance of the math involved.

It's pretty silly to suggest that I lack experience regarding what starts a laggy situation, btw, I've been PvPing for years. Where precisely did I demonstrate a lack of experience? As for faction stacks and ball groups, yeah, everybody knows they're the ones who are causing the lag, but if you're suggesting that it's the group size itself causing an issue, you're just proving that you lack the background in math or engineering which would let you make informed comments on the issue. The problem with large groups stems from their coordinated use of AoEs generally. The vast majority of these make no distinction between a 12-person or 24-person group.

wut?