Dear ZOS, Please Don't Ruin The Game For Roleplayers With 12 Person Group Limit

Coorbin · April 2021

Hello ZOS,

Please understand that those of us who play this game to roleplay are going to have a very difficult time and will be hugely impacted in a negative way by your reduction of the group size limit from 24 to 12.

When we first read this patch note in the PTS server, we couldn't believe it. We thought it was a late April Fools' joke. Several of us suspected we were misunderstanding the patch note and there was no problem.

But upon closer inspection, it seems our worst fears are true. In every RP guild I've ever been a part of, we usually self-organize into RP groups for the purpose of maintaining easy location via the map for folks who are just joining or get disconnected, etc., and for OOC chat in group. This is true of both guild RP as well as open world RP.

When I find myself in RP groups, I'd say about 60% of the time the group has more than 12 people in it. Getting more than 24 in a group is very rare though, because that many people in a single RP setting becomes difficult to manage. But we do just fine with 12 or 15 or 18 people most of the time, especially when we establish some sort of social organization so folks don't just do their own thing.

This has worked very well for us for years, and many/most of us (I am part of a community with hundreds of players) have ESO Plus and pay a lot of money for housing, costumes, motifs, etc. so we can further immerse ourselves into the RP setting.

By reducing group size from 24 to 12, you will be hugely hindering the RP community, by requiring us to organize our OOC chat across multiple groups, making it harder for us to find the group leader, etc. It will just add a huge administrative burden to those who go to the effort to coordinate these RP groups.

I personally have over 5100 hours in ESO (per Steam) and have definitely felt the wallet impact of the crowns, etc. I've bought in this game. ZOS, we are many, and we pay a lot of money to your company because your game is a very good roleplaying setting for our community, and we care very much about maintaining that community for the long haul.

This will have an enormous impact on our ability to enjoy the game, and may result in the shrinkage of our community and the reduction of profits for ZOS. I strongly urge that you reconsider your decision before this patch leaves PTS.

I would rather have no new features and no companions than to see this change come to pass.

If you must implement this, give us a tool for organizing unrestricted custom chat channels with no player limit, or better yet, some sort of large group system that does not share XP or loot but does provide map markers and easy "taxi" TP functionality. Don't ask us to use /guild, please; we can have many separate RPs going on in the same guild at the same time, and that would be chaotic.

Thank you on behalf of the whole ESO RP community.

~Coorbin

pleximus · April 2021

I don't understand, what are you not able to do with 12 players that you can do with 24? The only use is dolmen XP farm as far as I know.

kargen27 · April 2021

pleximus wrote: »

I don't understand, what are you not able to do with 12 players that you can do with 24? The only use is dolmen XP farm as far as I know.

Group chat is the big thing for role play types.

Also sometimes guild events are larger than 12 people and grouping is the only way to make sure all are in the same instance.

VaranisArano · April 2021

pleximus wrote: »

I don't understand, what are you not able to do with 12 players that you can do with 24? The only use is dolmen XP farm as far as I know.

Have 13-24 players talk in Group Chat.
Have 13-24 players all be able to see each other's positions with group chevron.
Have 13-24 players all reliably end up in the same instance, if there's any travel involved.

For roleplaying, I suspect group chat is the big factor. It's private and can't be trolled, unlike /say chat. Nor does it fill up guild chat with smaller RP sessions.

RogueShark · April 2021

Group chat for rp = being able to DM/post for people potentially out of range without having to be disruptive and use /yell. It's very useful.

Lots of social, non-rp guilds use larger than 12 groups as well. Skyshard groups, wb killing, lots of other activities to help out newbies or finish achieves.

xaraan · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I don't understand, what are you not able to do with 12 players that you can do with 24? The only use is dolmen XP farm as far as I know.

Have 13-24 players talk in Group Chat.
Have 13-24 players all be able to see each other's positions with group chevron.
Have 13-24 players all reliably end up in the same instance, if there's any travel involved.

For roleplaying, I suspect group chat is the big factor. It's private and can't be trolled, unlike /say chat. Nor does it fill up guild chat with smaller RP sessions.

I almost think a separate sort of feature would better suite RP. Almost like a temporary guild that gave you quasi group features like a unique chat and maybe even something less obtrusive than chevrons as markers for participants, and even allow more than 24 in it at a time.

I like group size of 12 for most anything directly game related. But for RP, I can see the desire.

Aegis828 · April 2021

This really comes down to administrative needs
as a Junior Officer in a RP guild, it comes down to how fast you can communicate changes in the RP to your group members, things like defense and offense systems, DM discretionary changes, etc.
In the guild I RP in, we are large enough that honestly, there are times when 24 is not enough. We have to have an Officer or JO start another group so the 5-10 other people wanting to attend the event, can.
SO, yes while 12 is the ideal number for content in the game, it would seriously hinder what we in the RP community can achieve.
If ZoS left this alone and kept the 24 limit, nothing changes and no one is harmed in the change. But if they do change it, the larger RP guilds, while adaptable, are not always flexible; and this would be a hinderance and stumbling block for us.
Just my 2 cents

VaranisArano · April 2021

Kurat wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

A. Up until this point, PVP and PVE group sizes were being balanced separately. PVP had 12-man groups since Markarth. I don't know why you think PVPers are to blame for PVE group sizes getting cut two updates later.

Correlation is not causation.

B. If anything, PVP should prove that you can still have zergs of many players in one place without players being in 24-person groups. So if that was ZOS' goal, well, they already know that reducing group size doesn't necessarily reduce the number of players at an objective. Splitting Alikr Dolmen runners into 6 groups instead of 3 isn't going to dramatically reduce the players grinding exp in the same location, any more than it stops players from faction stacking at the last Emperor keep in Cyrodiil. If ZOS were paying attention to PVP, they would already know this.

So if this goes Live, I'm pointing the finger at ZOS. Something is making them think that PVE groups need to be reduced, and it just doesn't make sense that PVP had anything to do with that decision when they were balanced separately for several months.

If it turns out that the change in Cyrodiil revealed that game performance noticeably improves when group size is reduced to 12...well, then I have a LOT of questions for ZOS about how we got to this point.

Edited: My suspicion, and I hope I'm wrong, is that ZOS is afraid of multiple groups of 24 players + 24 companions running around. Though even there, how is that different from 72 solo players running with their 72 Companions? I dunno.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Flamebait · April 2021

I would almost guess if anyone was to blame for this it would be the dolmen groups.

Amottica · April 2021

pleximus wrote: »

I don't understand, what are you not able to do with 12 players that you can do with 24? The only use is dolmen XP farm as far as I know.

They are talking about RP (roleplaying) which is in the title and the first paragraph. Group chat is ideal for RP sessions and used by experienced roleplayers. It allows them privacy and helps them avoid other players harassing them.

BTW, the roleplayers that use regular chat channels while roleplaying in major areas such as cities are very inexperienced which is why their chat is broadcast to the area.

Even though I do not roleplay I have had friends in other games that were serious roleplayers. As such I support the OPs request that group size not be diminished in PvE. Especially in light that there is no explanation as to how this change benefits the game.

VaranisArano · April 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

I would almost guess if anyone was to blame for this it would be the dolmen groups.

On the one hand, I agree. Dolmen groups are an easy target right now.

In Cyrodiil, we know that stacks lots of players in one location hurts performance. The only places I ever see PVE approach the same density of players fighting in one place is the Alikr Dolmens. Maybe a world boss or a Dragon Hunt/Harrowstorm during an event. Its possible that ZOS saw some performance improvements to be made.

On the other hand, if that's why ZOS did it, then the experience of PVPers should prove that this idea is incorrect.

In Cyrodiil, even with the reduced group sizes, we see that players still zerg and faction stack at important objectives. So if players think the exp grinding at the Alikr Dolmens is necessary, they are all gonna zerg at the dolmens, regardless of if they are in 3 groups or double that.

I hate to think that Companions might be the reason. 12 Players + up to 12 Companions = 24.

opaj · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Edited: My suspicion, and I hope I'm wrong, is that ZOS is afraid of multiple groups of 24 players + 24 companions running around.

I'm not inclined to think this is the case. We know that companions take up a slot in dungeons and trials, and in the last ESO Live they showed the companion's health bar showing up as if they were a party member. It seems most likely to me that companions take up a slot in any party the player is in, so at most we'd have multiple groups of 12 players + 12 companions under the current system. Groups of 6 players + 6 companions isn't really materially better.

I personally think that they were just trying to make all of their game systems consistent, and there's no longer an "official" activity that takes a group of more than 12.

Amottica wrote: »

BTW, the roleplayers that use regular chat channels while roleplaying in major areas such as cities are very inexperienced which is why their chat is broadcast to the area.

Excuse me?

(Haha I agree with most of what you're saying, but come now--the decision to use regular chat versus party chat is hardly a marker of experience.)

Edit: Since I didn't make it clear here, I will say now that I sincerely hope the revert this change.

VaranisArano · April 2021

opaj wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Edited: My suspicion, and I hope I'm wrong, is that ZOS is afraid of multiple groups of 24 players + 24 companions running around.

I'm not inclined to think this is the case. We know that companions take up a slot in dungeons and trials, and in the last ESO Live they showed the companion's health bar showing up as if they were a party member. It seems most likely to me that companions take up a slot in any party the player is in, so at most we'd have multiple groups of 12 players + 12 companions under the current system. Groups of 6 players + 6 companions isn't really materially better.

I personally think that they were just trying to make all of their game systems consistent, and there's no longer an "official" activity that takes a group of more than 12.

Amottica wrote: »

BTW, the roleplayers that use regular chat channels while roleplaying in major areas such as cities are very inexperienced which is why their chat is broadcast to the area.

Excuse me?

(Haha I agree with most of what you're saying, but come now--the decision to use regular chat versus party chat is hardly a marker of experience.)

Edit: Since I didn't make it clear here, I will say now that I sincerely hope the revert this change.

Yeah, it'd be disappointing if ZOS cut off so much PVE social activity merely out of a desire to fit all activities into the same neat box of 12 players...as if they want to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

But if that's the case, hopefully there's no practical barrier to them reconsidering!

Amottica · April 2021

opaj wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Edited: My suspicion, and I hope I'm wrong, is that ZOS is afraid of multiple groups of 24 players + 24 companions running around.

I'm not inclined to think this is the case. We know that companions take up a slot in dungeons and trials, and in the last ESO Live they showed the companion's health bar showing up as if they were a party member. It seems most likely to me that companions take up a slot in any party the player is in, so at most we'd have multiple groups of 12 players + 12 companions under the current system. Groups of 6 players + 6 companions isn't really materially better.

I personally think that they were just trying to make all of their game systems consistent, and there's no longer an "official" activity that takes a group of more than 12.

Amottica wrote: »

BTW, the roleplayers that use regular chat channels while roleplaying in major areas such as cities are very inexperienced which is why their chat is broadcast to the area.

Excuse me?

(Haha I agree with most of what you're saying, but come now--the decision to use regular chat versus party chat is hardly a marker of experience.)

Edit: Since I didn't make it clear here, I will say now that I sincerely hope the revert this change.

Experience tends to lead to refinement of one's technique.

Please feel free to disagree as it does not bother me. Experienced RPers that I have known tend to avoid attracting others to help ensure they are not interupted. It makes sense.

renne · April 2021

I don't know how chat works in PC (if at all) but on console guilds have 4 channels that people can use to chat to each other within the guild without being grouped together. Guild chat is an existing thing. I don't know if it has a max number of ppl on it though.

And you can keep people together by travelling to a player via guild roster. So you could have multiple groups of 12 and still chat to each other and travel to each other. Yeah, it's an absolute pain in the rear but it's not like it's entirely stopped you from having over 12 people RP together.

Best case, they don't change it and it stays at 24. Worst case, there's easy enough work arounds.

Amottica · April 2021

renne wrote: »

I don't know how chat works in PC (if at all) but on console guilds have 4 channels that people can use to chat to each other within the guild without being grouped together. Guild chat is an existing thing. I don't know if it has a max number of ppl on it though.

And you can keep people together by travelling to a player via guild roster. So you could have multiple groups of 12 and still chat to each other and travel to each other. Yeah, it's an absolute pain in the rear but it's not like it's entirely stopped you from having over 12 people RP together.

Best case, they don't change it and it stays at 24. Worst case, there's easy enough work arounds.

On PC there is one guild chat for everyone in the guild. For open areas, there is Zone, Say, Yell, and Emote. There is also a zone for specific languages but all of this can be viewed by anyone. They are public channels except for guild which is private for up to 500 people.

The question I have, is there anything in-game to support roleplayers other than grouping?

ccfeeling · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

As usual you can thank pvp complain threads for this. They couldn't deal with zergs.

B. If anything, PVP should prove that you can still have zergs of many players in one place without players being in 24-person groups. So if that was ZOS' goal, well, they already know that reducing group size doesn't necessarily reduce the number of players at an objective.

I wanna ask the same question lol .

Joy_Division · April 2021

Not just roleplay, but really any for of socializing. Every week one of my guild runs farming groups for resources, which is just mostly an excuse to get together and hang out.

Unnecessary change that just hurts folks trying to enjoy each other's company, which is supposed to be a big feature of MMOs.

kargen27 · April 2021

"I'm not inclined to think this is the case. We know that companions take up a slot in dungeons and trials, and in the last ESO Live they showed the companion's health bar showing up as if they were a party member. It seems most likely to me that companions take up a slot in any party the player is in, so at most we'd have multiple groups of 12 players + 12 companions under the current system."

So this had the conspiracy theorist in me kick in and wonder if cutting the group size to twelve is a way to promote the use of companions. More people using them better chance of selling more companions.

Then I thought, nah, they'd never do that.

renne · April 2021

Amottica wrote: »

renne wrote: »

I don't know how chat works in PC (if at all) but on console guilds have 4 channels that people can use to chat to each other within the guild without being grouped together. Guild chat is an existing thing. I don't know if it has a max number of ppl on it though.

And you can keep people together by travelling to a player via guild roster. So you could have multiple groups of 12 and still chat to each other and travel to each other. Yeah, it's an absolute pain in the rear but it's not like it's entirely stopped you from having over 12 people RP together.

Best case, they don't change it and it stays at 24. Worst case, there's easy enough work arounds.

On PC there is one guild chat for everyone in the guild. For open areas, there is Zone, Say, Yell, and Emote. There is also a zone for specific languages but all of this can be viewed by anyone. They are public channels except for guild which is private for up to 500 people.

The question I have, is there anything in-game to support roleplayers other than grouping?

I meant chat as in a talking channel, not the on screen text box. Hence "on console guilds have 4 channels that people can use to chat to each other within the guild without being grouped together". Channels. Chat channels. To talk to each other. With voices.

renne · April 2021

kargen27 wrote: »

"I'm not inclined to think this is the case. We know that companions take up a slot in dungeons and trials, and in the last ESO Live they showed the companion's health bar showing up as if they were a party member. It seems most likely to me that companions take up a slot in any party the player is in, so at most we'd have multiple groups of 12 players + 12 companions under the current system."

So this had the conspiracy theorist in me kick in and wonder if cutting the group size to twelve is a way to promote the use of companions. More people using them better chance of selling more companions.

Then I thought, nah, they'd never do that.

Theyve already said a companion takes up a group spot, so in a 12 person group, it's 12 people, whether they're real players or fake players.

Kwoung · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

I would almost guess if anyone was to blame for this it would be the dolmen groups.

On the one hand, I agree. Dolmen groups are an easy target right now.

In Cyrodiil, we know that stacks lots of players in one location hurts performance. The only places I ever see PVE approach the same density of players fighting in one place is the Alikr Dolmens. Maybe a world boss or a Dragon Hunt/Harrowstorm during an event. Its possible that ZOS saw some performance improvements to be made.

On the other hand, if that's why ZOS did it, then the experience of PVPers should prove that this idea is incorrect.

In Cyrodiil, even with the reduced group sizes, we see that players still zerg and faction stack at important objectives. So if players think the exp grinding at the Alikr Dolmens is necessary, they are all gonna zerg at the dolmens, regardless of if they are in 3 groups or double that.

I hate to think that Companions might be the reason. 12 Players + up to 12 Companions = 24.

If it is about dolmen groups, which I also expect the issue is as well... My guess would be that they are afraid of 12 afk players surrounding a dolmen with their companions out to farm XP 24x7.

DreadDaedroth · April 2021

It's not for RP only, it's a silly limiting decay(not change) for every guild activity.
Changes are meant to improve things, experiences not ruin them.

zvavi · April 2021

We pc players have no voice channels

Lady_Galadhiel · April 2021

They will need to come up with a different solution for this ''issue''.
One of my trading guilds organizes skyshard hunts,wb events,zone clears,etc each week and splitting that into 2 or more groups would lead to having different group chats so we can not enjoy the jokes and giggles from the others.
And no,talking in guild chat wouldn't be the solution,we don't wanna spam and annoy the other guildies who aren't interested in what we are talking about.

Brrrofski · April 2021

Kurat wrote: »

As usual you can thank pvp complain threads for this. They couldn't deal with zergs.

Again, another example of blaming PvP without having the actual facts.

Seems to be a favourite pastime of members of this forum.

There's been a 12 group size limit for a while now in Cyrodiil. So this change has nothing to do with that.

hands0medevil · April 2021

this is how the current situation looks like for someone who is constantly nerfed:

when they nerf pvpers, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they nerf pvers, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they constantly nerf endgame, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they nerf CP, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they disable 90% of sets in cyro, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they reduce group size in cyro, we don't care, it doesn't apply to us

when they reduce global group size, there is no one else to care

so, welcome to our world of constant nerfs uncertainty and unbalance

WiseSky · April 2021

I don't like this.

zvavi · April 2021

I don't like this.

Agalloch · April 2021

They killed Cyrodiil by reducing the group limit ...now they want to kill roleplayers.

ZOS what is in your mind?

WE NEED GROUP LIMIT TO BE 24 like it was from launch until now.

ZOS , please dont't kill your game!

Agalloch · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not just roleplay, but really any for of socializing. Every week one of my guild runs farming groups for resources, which is just mostly an excuse to get together and hang out.

Unnecessary change that just hurts folks trying to enjoy each other's company, which is supposed to be a big feature of MMOs.

Also Cyro is not fine any more...since they reduiced the group size.

I don't know what is the reason to reduce the group size limit.

We had this many years..why they want to change it?

If their servers cannot handle 24 member groups any more..why they don't make the announced upgrade of their servers?