Thoughts on "raising floors, lowering ceilings"

Agenericname · April 2021

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!

But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.

Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.

ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.

As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.

If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.

The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".

So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.

Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.

Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.

The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.

The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.

See this post for why I disagree. It's not "for people that want it", it's "nobody outside of my little sphere plays the game right, and they need to learn".

That has nothing to do with an avenue to improve if you want. I'm not sure why it would be used as a counterargument against it.

Within the context of the conversation, the post you linked to isnt painting that as a "play the I that I want you to" issue. The devs put mechanincs in the game. They also made counters to them, in many cases multiple counters. They teach some of those in the game's tutorial. This is all designed by the developers and not simply because a "small sphere" of people demand it.

Merforum · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your opposition to the idea that we should raise the floor by providing better in-game resources so players who want to can learn to play effectively are as follows:
- casual players may not want to learn
- players may have limited time and thus don't learn
- players who physically can't may not be able to learn
- players who wrongfully consider light attack weaving to be an exploit will refuse to learn
- since all players are now given the in-game means to learn, all groups above will be called lazy, ignorant, and unmotivated because they haven't used the new in-gsme resources.

That's your justification for depriving the players who would want to use in-game tutorials and who would benefit from them of that opportunity?

I hate to say it, but your categories are even more disadvantaged by the current system. Casual players are a lot more likely to try a tutorial out if it's in the game than if they have to go search it out on youtube or other sites. The same is true for players with limited time. And if ZOS actually makes a tutorial for players that includes light attack weaving, maybe people will finally get it through their heads that it's not an exploit.

As for the people who are physically unable, I strongly suspect that they'd benefit too, as forcing ZOS to provide an in-game tutorials for taxing stuff like light attack weaving means that ZOS has to grapple with how accessible this mechanic really is (or isn't) to all their players.

This isn't directed at you specifically. I'm a little disappointed to see so much opposition coming from a direction that seems to be "I don't want to learn to play better, so no one should get the in-game opportunity to learn to play better."

I'm not sure why. Is this a fear that if everyone else learns to play better, those who don't want to will be left behind? That those who don't will feel forced to learn to play better too, or to quit? That if they don't, they'll be castigated for refusing to use the in-game lessons provided?

I can sort of understand those worries, but it still seems to me to be a selfish reason for arguing against in-game tutorials to teach players who want to learn how to play the game more effectively.

I have never even one time mentioned or referred to anything related to 'online tutorials'. To write a long post accusing someone of opposing something they haven't mentioned is unfortunately all to common on this forum. So to break it down in simple terms.

1. ZOS has already 'raised the floor' significantly with the stat/'w/s dmg' boosts and made even normal DLC content doable by everyone. Since the changes I have done over 100 pug normal random dailies and never did we wipe, only maybe 3 times did team wipe where I had to rez them, and I died only 2 times in easy zone by not paying attention and rezzed myself

2. I actually would love to have online tutorial or at least a company statement from ZOS stating clearly that LA EXPLOIT, which is doing LA weaving (a VALID light attack ever other second in front of each skill) in the SAME SECOND AS A SKILL effectively getting TWO actions in ONE second, is something that they think is positive to the game and also want people to learn, and give us training on it AT THAT POINT, until they state this explicitly it is an exploit that I WILL NOT DO ON PURPOSE

3. I'd also like to have a tutorial or statement from ZOS stating that they have designed boss mechanics in such a way that bypassing all of them is a valid playstyle and give tips on how to bypass those mechanics, even practice dummies if that is necessary, BUT if this is NOT INTENDED behavior, I propose they start doing anything they can to STOP IT FROM BECOMING THE NORM

nqvarihs · April 2021

Merforum wrote: »

2. I actually would love to have online tutorial or at least a company statement from ZOS stating clearly that LA EXPLOIT, which is doing LA weaving (a VALID light attack ever other second in front of each skill) in the SAME SECOND AS A SKILL effectively getting TWO actions in ONE second, is something that they think is positive to the game and also want people to learn, and give us training on it AT THAT POINT, until they state this explicitly it is an exploit that I WILL NOT DO ON PURPOSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

LA/HA tests

Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.

High APM play is still rewarded as the absolute highest DPS and requires a mix of both Light and Heavy attacks, interacting with Off-Balance as optimally as possible.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

robertthebard · April 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!

But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.

Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.

ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.

As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.

If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.

The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".

So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.

Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.

Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.

The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.

The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.

See this post for why I disagree. It's not "for people that want it", it's "nobody outside of my little sphere plays the game right, and they need to learn".

That has nothing to do with an avenue to improve if you want. I'm not sure why it would be used as a counterargument against it.

Within the context of the conversation, the post you linked to isnt painting that as a "play the I that I want you to" issue. The devs put mechanincs in the game. They also made counters to them, in many cases multiple counters. They teach some of those in the game's tutorial. This is all designed by the developers and not simply because a "small sphere" of people demand it.

Because it's not "if they want". It's straight out "they don't know how to play the way I think they should". Hence things like "then maybe your parse will be worth a guild wasting time on you" (paraphrased). When I was running content that required me to learn player mechanics, weaving, animation cancelling et al, I learned them. When I'm not even looking at that content, I have no reason to learn it. If I'm doing Normal dungeons, I'll fall back to it, but I'm a former progression raider, and I've already learned this stuff. Others won't need to learn it for those dungeons, and no matter how much people want to say "but ZoS can make them want to", they can't. There are already carrots at the end of sticks that I don't want, and so I won't be running the content with that carrot. Nothing ZoS does can make me want to get that carrot.

It doesn't matter how many forum posters try to claim things like "but nobody dodges", arguments I've actually seen in this conversation over the years, and "but their low DPS is wasting my time" or "they die too much", the "solution" to the problem is already present in game, and doesn't "force" players to gain a skillset they may not be interested in, or need, for the content they're playing, form a group from one's guilds/friends lists, and hit the random queue. Of course, the ultimate "solution" would be to reduce the rewards from Normal dungeons, so that players just looking for those are running the content that's going to reward them the best. But when you're getting players that aren't interested in being "best of the best", or even looking to try to be anywhere near it, and players that already consider themselves to be the "best of the best" together in the same content, which isn't intended for the "best of the best", this topic is going to continue to come up.

Note: if this were underperforming players in Vet content or above, my argument would be a lot different, but it's not, it's about Normal dungeons. The floor has been raised with CP at all levels, the ceiling doesn't really require much in the way of lowering, it does, however, require more in the means of keeping "conflicting" playstyles apart. Ironically, with few exceptions, if they were separated, more players in Normal might progress beyond it on their own, because they're not being vote kicked, or derided in group, for their performance in what is supposed to be learning content.

Agenericname · April 2021

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!

But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.

Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.

ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.

As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.

If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.

The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".

So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.

Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.

Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.

The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.

The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.

See this post for why I disagree. It's not "for people that want it", it's "nobody outside of my little sphere plays the game right, and they need to learn".

That has nothing to do with an avenue to improve if you want. I'm not sure why it would be used as a counterargument against it.

Within the context of the conversation, the post you linked to isnt painting that as a "play the I that I want you to" issue. The devs put mechanincs in the game. They also made counters to them, in many cases multiple counters. They teach some of those in the game's tutorial. This is all designed by the developers and not simply because a "small sphere" of people demand it.

Because it's not "if they want". It's straight out "they don't know how to play the way I think they should". Hence things like "then maybe your parse will be worth a guild wasting time on you" (paraphrased). When I was running content that required me to learn player mechanics, weaving, animation cancelling et al, I learned them. When I'm not even looking at that content, I have no reason to learn it. If I'm doing Normal dungeons, I'll fall back to it, but I'm a former progression raider, and I've already learned this stuff. Others won't need to learn it for those dungeons, and no matter how much people want to say "but ZoS can make them want to", they can't. There are already carrots at the end of sticks that I don't want, and so I won't be running the content with that carrot. Nothing ZoS does can make me want to get that carrot.

It doesn't matter how many forum posters try to claim things like "but nobody dodges", arguments I've actually seen in this conversation over the years, and "but their low DPS is wasting my time" or "they die too much", the "solution" to the problem is already present in game, and doesn't "force" players to gain a skillset they may not be interested in, or need, for the content they're playing, form a group from one's guilds/friends lists, and hit the random queue. Of course, the ultimate "solution" would be to reduce the rewards from Normal dungeons, so that players just looking for those are running the content that's going to reward them the best. But when you're getting players that aren't interested in being "best of the best", or even looking to try to be anywhere near it, and players that already consider themselves to be the "best of the best" together in the same content, which isn't intended for the "best of the best", this topic is going to continue to come up.

Note: if this were underperforming players in Vet content or above, my argument would be a lot different, but it's not, it's about Normal dungeons. The floor has been raised with CP at all levels, the ceiling doesn't really require much in the way of lowering, it does, however, require more in the means of keeping "conflicting" playstyles apart. Ironically, with few exceptions, if they were separated, more players in Normal might progress beyond it on their own, because they're not being vote kicked, or derided in group, for their performance in what is supposed to be learning content.

Thats exactly what its about. It has little, if anything to do with normals. I dont run them often, and the few times I do, I couldnt care less what the other DD is doing for damage. I find it laughable that anyone would complain.

Within that group of people, some, at some point, will want to transition to harder content. Those are the people this is about. Not about the people who want to run dungeons just for stories, or never want to run veteran content. I dont think that asking ZOS for a method of feedback or some way to give players as idea of the dungeon's progression in difficulty would effect anyone that didnt care.

I agree about the normals being mostly just a crystal/XP farm these days. Its turned it into the one of the more unfriendly aspects of the game. If ZOS wants to bring about any meaningful change to the "floor" then they will have to do something about that. Its part of the learning process and right now its mostly blocked by people blasting many characters through as fast as possible.

Alurria · April 2021

So if LA weaving was originally a mistake maybe they need to correct that so people can play normally (subjective normally) because I know LA weaving has been in the game a long time. By removing LA weaving, would that lower the ceiling? I am asking because I genuinely do not know. By inching the floor and ceiling closer you should get more horizontal progression. At least that sounds reasonable to me.

Honestly I am just trying to follow the conversation so trying to ask. I play this game for different reasons than most of you but that doesn't mean I don't want to experience some of the harder content it just means it's not my goal. I have a great guild so I won't be using the dungeon finder I never have. This is the first year in 7 years I have played on and off that I put a foot into a dungeon and trial, again that's because I belong to a great guild who doesn't make it hard to participate.

Araneae6537 · April 2021

The only problem that I see (and I may well be mistaken), is how much animation canceling / light attack weaving adds to total damage. Surely most should be from a proper build and using the right abilities, making sure you have high uptime on important buffs, etc.? I have no problem with players able to get even more out of the system, but my understanding is that well-timed attack weaving accounts for more than half of a skilled DD’s damage and if that’s correct, that seems very disproportionate to anything else a player might do to improve their performance.

Edit: To be clear, I don’t think that animation cancelling should be eliminated, most especially because players should be able to react and block, bash, dodge-roll, etc. whenever they need to. It is rather the relative amount of damage done with this method that I question.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Alurria wrote: »

So if LA weaving was originally a mistake maybe they need to correct that so people can play normally (subjective normally) because I know LA weaving has been in the game a long time. By removing LA weaving, would that lower the ceiling? I am asking because I genuinely do not know. By inching the floor and ceiling closer you should get more horizontal progression. At least that sounds reasonable to me.

Honestly I am just trying to follow the conversation so trying to ask. I play this game for different reasons than most of you but that doesn't mean I don't want to experience some of the harder content it just means it's not my goal. I have a great guild so I won't be using the dungeon finder I never have. This is the first year in 7 years I have played on and off that I put a foot into a dungeon and trial, again that's because I belong to a great guild who doesn't make it hard to participate.

Yes removing LA weaving would lower the ceiling. But the floor and the ceiling will always stay far apart as long as people dont know/dont care how to set up a character correctly. Or until Zos obliterates any kind of skill ceiling I suppose.
The problem with most of the changes to adress the floor vs ceiling difference is that there are very few buffs Zos can do that wouldnt buff the ceiling more and very few nerfs that also wouldnt impact the floor. The people at the ceiling will always find ways to stay there. And the floor will never care enough to be risen.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The only problem that I see (and I may well be mistaken), is how much animation canceling / light attack weaving adds to total damage. Surely most should be from a proper build and using the right abilities, making sure you have high uptime on important buffs, etc.? I have no problem with players able to get even more out of the system, but my understanding is that well-timed attack weaving accounts for more than half of a skilled DD’s damage and if that’s correct, that seems very disproportionate to anything else a player might do to improve their performance.

Light attacks sit at around 18% of a parse. The majority of damage comes from having a proper build and having a solid rotation.
Edit: If you want to check it yourself you can look at Eso logs and check Sunspire parses on Yolna since he is pretty much a target dummy boss fight.

VaranisArano · April 2021

Merforum wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your opposition to the idea that we should raise the floor by providing better in-game resources so players who want to can learn to play effectively are as follows:
- casual players may not want to learn
- players may have limited time and thus don't learn
- players who physically can't may not be able to learn
- players who wrongfully consider light attack weaving to be an exploit will refuse to learn
- since all players are now given the in-game means to learn, all groups above will be called lazy, ignorant, and unmotivated because they haven't used the new in-gsme resources.

That's your justification for depriving the players who would want to use in-game tutorials and who would benefit from them of that opportunity?

I hate to say it, but your categories are even more disadvantaged by the current system. Casual players are a lot more likely to try a tutorial out if it's in the game than if they have to go search it out on youtube or other sites. The same is true for players with limited time. And if ZOS actually makes a tutorial for players that includes light attack weaving, maybe people will finally get it through their heads that it's not an exploit.

As for the people who are physically unable, I strongly suspect that they'd benefit too, as forcing ZOS to provide an in-game tutorials for taxing stuff like light attack weaving means that ZOS has to grapple with how accessible this mechanic really is (or isn't) to all their players.

This isn't directed at you specifically. I'm a little disappointed to see so much opposition coming from a direction that seems to be "I don't want to learn to play better, so no one should get the in-game opportunity to learn to play better."

I'm not sure why. Is this a fear that if everyone else learns to play better, those who don't want to will be left behind? That those who don't will feel forced to learn to play better too, or to quit? That if they don't, they'll be castigated for refusing to use the in-game lessons provided?

I can sort of understand those worries, but it still seems to me to be a selfish reason for arguing against in-game tutorials to teach players who want to learn how to play the game more effectively.

I have never even one time mentioned or referred to anything related to 'online tutorials'. To write a long post accusing someone of opposing something they haven't mentioned is unfortunately all to common on this forum. So to break it down in simple terms.

1. ZOS has already 'raised the floor' significantly with the stat/'w/s dmg' boosts and made even normal DLC content doable by everyone. Since the changes I have done over 100 pug normal random dailies and never did we wipe, only maybe 3 times did team wipe where I had to rez them, and I died only 2 times in easy zone by not paying attention and rezzed myself

2. I actually would love to have online tutorial or at least a company statement from ZOS stating clearly that LA EXPLOIT, which is doing LA weaving (a VALID light attack ever other second in front of each skill) in the SAME SECOND AS A SKILL effectively getting TWO actions in ONE second, is something that they think is positive to the game and also want people to learn, and give us training on it AT THAT POINT, until they state this explicitly it is an exploit that I WILL NOT DO ON PURPOSE

3. I'd also like to have a tutorial or statement from ZOS stating that they have designed boss mechanics in such a way that bypassing all of them is a valid playstyle and give tips on how to bypass those mechanics, even practice dummies if that is necessary, BUT if this is NOT INTENDED behavior, I propose they start doing anything they can to STOP IT FROM BECOMING THE NORM

Well, then thank you for clarifying. I'm glad to know I misunderstood some points where I thought we disagreed.

1. Your experience in random normals is not a great example because those can be completed with pretty low DPS. I already said that. But since ZOS must be concerned with progression, as well as the absolute floor of players, they need to look at how to get those players doing 7k DPS to succeed in a random normal can learn to do better so they perform well in Vet content...or you can say ZOS did enough for everyone to progress to Vet and do fine and call it a day.

I mean, I was running Normal DLCs when level 10s could get Imperial City Prison. Normal dungeons don't take amazing DPS to complete. It's not surprising that players who do fine in normals hit a wall in Vet - you even described what happens when you get a group with 30k DPS in Vet dungeons. In short, no, I don't think what the Devs did with CP 2.0 is sufficient for progression.

2.

But I suppose that doesn't meet the extremely specific goalposts you've set out. Perhaps "immediately" means "after one second has elapsed", to you? Nevertheless, hey, I'm delighted to know that you agree that since the Devs included light attack weaving in the game, they should teach players to do it!

3. Hey, I'm delighted to know that you'd be in favor of the Devs providing in-game tutorials that would teach more players to do damage effectively.

Anyways, I'm not interested in fighting over this. I disagree with you, but I respect your willingness to refuse to engage in what you believe is an exploit, like weaving or bringing high DPS to encounters that don't warrant it.

Alurria · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

So if LA weaving was originally a mistake maybe they need to correct that so people can play normally (subjective normally) because I know LA weaving has been in the game a long time. By removing LA weaving, would that lower the ceiling? I am asking because I genuinely do not know. By inching the floor and ceiling closer you should get more horizontal progression. At least that sounds reasonable to me.

Honestly I am just trying to follow the conversation so trying to ask. I play this game for different reasons than most of you but that doesn't mean I don't want to experience some of the harder content it just means it's not my goal. I have a great guild so I won't be using the dungeon finder I never have. This is the first year in 7 years I have played on and off that I put a foot into a dungeon and trial, again that's because I belong to a great guild who doesn't make it hard to participate.

Yes removing LA weaving would lower the ceiling. But the floor and the ceiling will always stay far apart as long as people dont know/dont care how to set up a character correctly. Or until Zos obliterates any kind of skill ceiling I suppose.
The problem with most of the changes to adress the floor vs ceiling difference is that there are very few buffs Zos can do that wouldnt buff the ceiling more and very few nerfs that also wouldnt impact the floor. The people at the ceiling will always find ways to stay there. And the floor will never care enough to be risen.

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Goregrinder · April 2021

Alurria wrote: »

So if LA weaving was originally a mistake maybe they need to correct that so people can play normally (subjective normally) because I know LA weaving has been in the game a long time. By removing LA weaving, would that lower the ceiling? I am asking because I genuinely do not know. By inching the floor and ceiling closer you should get more horizontal progression. At least that sounds reasonable to me.

Honestly I am just trying to follow the conversation so trying to ask. I play this game for different reasons than most of you but that doesn't mean I don't want to experience some of the harder content it just means it's not my goal. I have a great guild so I won't be using the dungeon finder I never have. This is the first year in 7 years I have played on and off that I put a foot into a dungeon and trial, again that's because I belong to a great guild who doesn't make it hard to participate.

Yes it would lower the skill ceiling. Taking anything from the hands of the players, and putting it in the hands of the computer will always lower the skill ceiling.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Alurria wrote: »

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Zos doesnt really teach anything in Eso. This is not limited to weaving. Zos doesnt even teach you that stam costing abilites scale with weapon damage/max stam only.

And again: Weaving hasnt created the situation with floor and ceiling as it is now. The gap is created by lack of knowledge on how to set up a character optimally. One example: 2 people parse. Player 1 runs a BiS build for PvE dps. While he misses 40% of LAs and recasts some dots late he still hits decent numbers. Player 2 runs ebon, lord warden and Salvation. He hits every light attack and executes a perfect rotation. He will still be several 1000s of dps behind Player 1.

Why does something have to give? The middle can easily achieve a level of performance to be able to clear nearly everything comfortably. They might not get the trifectas or the dps check on the last boss in Sunspire hardmode but vet trials can easily be done without being at the top. Also what do you define as the middle here? Everything between the floor and ceiling still has potential to have massive gaps between them.

And sure people play to have fun. No one forces anyone to do homework when playing the game. But when one enters certain group content it is not unreasonable for the rest of the group to expect that 1 guy to be able to perform at the required level. This mostly applies to vet content tho. But if people dont care about rising from the floor why should the ceiling be lowered to meet them? The floor doesnt care.

Goregrinder · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Zos doesnt really teach anything in Eso. This is not limited to weaving. Zos doesnt even teach you that stam costing abilites scale with weapon damage/max stam only.

And again: Weaving hasnt created the situation with floor and ceiling as it is now. The gap is created by lack of knowledge on how to set up a character optimally. One example: 2 people parse. Player 1 runs a BiS build for PvE dps. While he misses 40% of LAs and recasts some dots late he still hits decent numbers. Player 2 runs ebon, lord warden and Salvation. He hits every light attack and executes a perfect rotation. He will still be several 1000s of dps behind Player 1.

Why does something have to give? The middle can easily achieve a level of performance to be able to clear nearly everything comfortably. They might not get the trifectas or the dps check on the last boss in Sunspire hardmode but vet trials can easily be done without being at the top. Also what do you define as the middle here? Everything between the floor and ceiling still has potential to have massive gaps between them.

And sure people play to have fun. No one forces anyone to do homework when playing the game. But when one enters certain group content it is not unreasonable for the rest of the group to expect that 1 guy to be able to perform at the required level. This mostly applies to vet content tho. But if people dont care about rising from the floor why should the ceiling be lowered to meet them? The floor doesnt care.

The best argument I've ever read my guy. To bad this isn't reddit, otherwise I'd gold you right now.

Runefang · April 2021

You can’t just remove LA weaving without compensation otherwise the ceiling lowers to the point of some content being inaccessible. LAs generate ultimate so you’d still need to use them sometimes.

If they do compensate dps the gap would remain because the floor still don’t layer dots, wear the right gear or even use food sometimes.

Araneae6537 · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The only problem that I see (and I may well be mistaken), is how much animation canceling / light attack weaving adds to total damage. Surely most should be from a proper build and using the right abilities, making sure you have high uptime on important buffs, etc.? I have no problem with players able to get even more out of the system, but my understanding is that well-timed attack weaving accounts for more than half of a skilled DD’s damage and if that’s correct, that seems very disproportionate to anything else a player might do to improve their performance.

Light attacks sit at around 18% of a parse. The majority of damage comes from having a proper build and having a solid rotation.
Edit: If you want to check it yourself you can look at Eso logs and check Sunspire parses on Yolna since he is pretty much a target dummy boss fight.

That’s good to know. I do wonder what I am doing so very wrong. I have no aspirations to push the leaderboards, to join those of you on the ceiling, but I would like to find my way off the floor, to find someplace nice to hang out on the wall where I have the option of playing a DD in vet dungeons and pull my weight.

So how does a player get there?

For builds I at least start from Alcast or others posted in this forum, with the exception that I don’t have trial DPS gear and few arena weapons, and certainly nothing perfected. CP 900+

I have no problem bar swapping and use the Action Duration Reminder add-on to make sure I keep up abilities like Critical Surge, for example. My DPS in parses and against dungeon bosses ranges from 15-28k. To my surprise, both of my mag sorc builds are on the low end of that even though I thought I had a decent rotation down. I did much better in test runs with a max crit magblade in blue gear and where I’m still working out the rotation. I was also surprised to get higher numbers with my PvP build mag warden (doing normal pledges with them for Undaunted) which is the opposite of a crit build, getting damage primarily from Bird of Prey, Advanced Species and Malacath.

I apologize if that is unneeded detail, but to me it seems diagnostic, that my numbers depend on individual attacks hitting hard one way or another. That is why I thought my general underlying problem must be a failure to properly attack weave. I should very much like to know what I am doing wrong.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Araneae6537 wrote: »

That’s good to know. I do wonder what I am doing so very wrong. I have no aspirations to push the leaderboards, to join those of you on the ceiling, but I would like to find my way off the floor, to find someplace nice to hang out on the wall where I have the option of playing a DD in vet dungeons and pull my weight. So how does a player get there?

For builds I at least start from Alcast or others posted in this forum, with the exception that I don’t have trial DPS gear and few arena weapons, and certainly nothing perfected. CP 900+

I have no problem bar swapping and use the Action Duration Reminder add-on to make sure I keep up abilities like Critical Surge, for example. My DPS in parses and against dungeon bosses ranges from 15-28k. To my surprise, both of my mag sorc builds are on the low end of that even though I thought I had a decent rotation down. I did much better in test runs with a max crit magblade in blue gear and where I’m still working out the rotation. I was also surprised to get higher numbers with my PvP build mag warden (doing normal pledges with them for Undaunted) which is the opposite of a crit build, getting damage primarily from Bird of Prey, Advanced Species and Malacath.

I apologize if that is unneeded detail, but to me it seems diagnostic, that my numbers depend on individual attacks hitting hard one way or another. That is why I thought my general underlying problem must be a failure to properly attack weave. I should very much like to know what I am doing wrong.

Hardly the thread to go into detail about what you could be missing but some things to consider regardless:
In dungeon pugs dps will always change depending on how many or how few buffs you get from tank/healer or how many debuffs are on the boss. The very high parses are only possible because of stacking all kinds of buffs and debuffs in a raid group. If you dont have 18.2k pen on the boss for example your damage will drop since every boss has 18.2k resistances that can be lowered primarly by the tank.
In a trial fight for example the boss will have minor and major fracture/breach, infused crusher enchant, alkosh, minor vuln, minor brittle, 3 stacks of stone fist, engulfing flames/morag tong (depending on stam or mag group), minor mag steal, at times major vuln, tremorscale (if more pen is still needed) on it and Im probably forgetting debuffs here. And a dps will have minor and major prophecy/savagery, sorcery/brutality, courage, minor berserk, infused weapon damage enchant, minor force, at times major force, minor slayer, at times major slayer etc. on them.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2021

BrownChicken wrote: »

The issue of course, how do you make Rotation less impactful without gutting combat.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568853/light-attacks-and-abilities-damage/p1

Already commented on your thread. Rotation is much more than light attack weaving. I can butcher a rotation and still hit .9+ LA/sec. I don’t disagree that if you want to balance power between tiers of skill levels, shrink the gap if you will, that LA damage needs to be in the discussion, but it ain’t the only thing that needs discussed.

I will also say, be careful what you wish for. LAs currently make up about 50% of your APM for around 20% of your damage. That is already comparatively week. It might need moved a bit but certainly not by a huge amount.

The other thing you have to consider is what happens tothe DPS of the pug spamming Bow LAs from the corner in group finder. It actually drops. LAs make up more of a percent of bad DPS than you might think. They can be cast more frequently than skills in terms of GCD and lend themselves very well to a button masher playstyle.

robertthebard · April 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!

But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.

Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.

ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.

As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.

If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.

The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".

So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.

Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.

Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.

The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.

The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.

See this post for why I disagree. It's not "for people that want it", it's "nobody outside of my little sphere plays the game right, and they need to learn".

That has nothing to do with an avenue to improve if you want. I'm not sure why it would be used as a counterargument against it.

Within the context of the conversation, the post you linked to isnt painting that as a "play the I that I want you to" issue. The devs put mechanincs in the game. They also made counters to them, in many cases multiple counters. They teach some of those in the game's tutorial. This is all designed by the developers and not simply because a "small sphere" of people demand it.

Because it's not "if they want". It's straight out "they don't know how to play the way I think they should". Hence things like "then maybe your parse will be worth a guild wasting time on you" (paraphrased). When I was running content that required me to learn player mechanics, weaving, animation cancelling et al, I learned them. When I'm not even looking at that content, I have no reason to learn it. If I'm doing Normal dungeons, I'll fall back to it, but I'm a former progression raider, and I've already learned this stuff. Others won't need to learn it for those dungeons, and no matter how much people want to say "but ZoS can make them want to", they can't. There are already carrots at the end of sticks that I don't want, and so I won't be running the content with that carrot. Nothing ZoS does can make me want to get that carrot.

It doesn't matter how many forum posters try to claim things like "but nobody dodges", arguments I've actually seen in this conversation over the years, and "but their low DPS is wasting my time" or "they die too much", the "solution" to the problem is already present in game, and doesn't "force" players to gain a skillset they may not be interested in, or need, for the content they're playing, form a group from one's guilds/friends lists, and hit the random queue. Of course, the ultimate "solution" would be to reduce the rewards from Normal dungeons, so that players just looking for those are running the content that's going to reward them the best. But when you're getting players that aren't interested in being "best of the best", or even looking to try to be anywhere near it, and players that already consider themselves to be the "best of the best" together in the same content, which isn't intended for the "best of the best", this topic is going to continue to come up.

Note: if this were underperforming players in Vet content or above, my argument would be a lot different, but it's not, it's about Normal dungeons. The floor has been raised with CP at all levels, the ceiling doesn't really require much in the way of lowering, it does, however, require more in the means of keeping "conflicting" playstyles apart. Ironically, with few exceptions, if they were separated, more players in Normal might progress beyond it on their own, because they're not being vote kicked, or derided in group, for their performance in what is supposed to be learning content.

Thats exactly what its about. It has little, if anything to do with normals. I dont run them often, and the few times I do, I couldnt care less what the other DD is doing for damage. I find it laughable that anyone would complain.

Within that group of people, some, at some point, will want to transition to harder content. Those are the people this is about. Not about the people who want to run dungeons just for stories, or never want to run veteran content. I dont think that asking ZOS for a method of feedback or some way to give players as idea of the dungeon's progression in difficulty would effect anyone that didnt care.

I agree about the normals being mostly just a crystal/XP farm these days. Its turned it into the one of the more unfriendly aspects of the game. If ZOS wants to bring about any meaningful change to the "floor" then they will have to do something about that. Its part of the learning process and right now its mostly blocked by people blasting many characters through as fast as possible.

Except that that's not what this thread was started discussing, unless Vet content is suddenly "the bottom"? I read the opening post, after all. In the case of the people that we've both mentioned, those that may want to improve, their chances would get a lot better if they were allowed to actually play the content w/out being denigrated, or booted from groups for being inferior, which we have both also addressed.

So it seems that our point of disagreement is what the thread is actually about, and for that, I'd suggest re-reading the OP, and asking yourself "If the problem is at the "bottom" of the game, why are we discussing what happens in Vet content"?

Araneae6537 · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

That’s good to know. I do wonder what I am doing so very wrong. I have no aspirations to push the leaderboards, to join those of you on the ceiling, but I would like to find my way off the floor, to find someplace nice to hang out on the wall where I have the option of playing a DD in vet dungeons and pull my weight. So how does a player get there?

For builds I at least start from Alcast or others posted in this forum, with the exception that I don’t have trial DPS gear and few arena weapons, and certainly nothing perfected. CP 900+

I have no problem bar swapping and use the Action Duration Reminder add-on to make sure I keep up abilities like Critical Surge, for example. My DPS in parses and against dungeon bosses ranges from 15-28k. To my surprise, both of my mag sorc builds are on the low end of that even though I thought I had a decent rotation down. I did much better in test runs with a max crit magblade in blue gear and where I’m still working out the rotation. I was also surprised to get higher numbers with my PvP build mag warden (doing normal pledges with them for Undaunted) which is the opposite of a crit build, getting damage primarily from Bird of Prey, Advanced Species and Malacath.

I apologize if that is unneeded detail, but to me it seems diagnostic, that my numbers depend on individual attacks hitting hard one way or another. That is why I thought my general underlying problem must be a failure to properly attack weave. I should very much like to know what I am doing wrong.

Hardly the thread to go into detail about what you could be missing...

That’s true, but reading through all the comments in this thread I am skeptical that the problem isn’t LA weaving. It seems that timing it just so makes a big difference in DPS and is a major thing that most players not completely new are aware of but many will not have mastered because there really isn’t in-game feedback that you’re getting it (not that I’m aware of) and seems much more tedious than fun, at least in my opinion. I’d rather timing or combining of different skills be the factor or just situational awareness, rather than clicking the same button just so between every skill. 🤔

Mahabahabtha · April 2021

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I play since Beta...

when i use Dungeon finder i only do Vet...

And in doing this so, this game had given me much Thrills in Group Experience, was it my first Hard Mode in Falkreach Hold, we done a 20 mins celebration afterwards...,
or for the the latest Castle Thorn or Icereach Hard Mode...
the first we tried for over an hour only the last Boss, and than we succeed....That was overwhelming...
THESE are my ESO Feelings, THESE are the things what makes the Game Great for me ...but these things are just a 10% of the Game...and i hate the other 90%....the boring grind, the boring dailys... i play this Game for a challenge !

AND the same is in PvP....

Flamebait · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Zos doesnt really teach anything in Eso. This is not limited to weaving. Zos doesnt even teach you that stam costing abilites scale with weapon damage/max stam only.

And again: Weaving hasnt created the situation with floor and ceiling as it is now. The gap is created by lack of knowledge on how to set up a character optimally. One example: 2 people parse. Player 1 runs a BiS build for PvE dps. While he misses 40% of LAs and recasts some dots late he still hits decent numbers. Player 2 runs ebon, lord warden and Salvation. He hits every light attack and executes a perfect rotation. He will still be several 1000s of dps behind Player 1.

Why does something have to give? The middle can easily achieve a level of performance to be able to clear nearly everything comfortably. They might not get the trifectas or the dps check on the last boss in Sunspire hardmode but vet trials can easily be done without being at the top. Also what do you define as the middle here? Everything between the floor and ceiling still has potential to have massive gaps between them.

And sure people play to have fun. No one forces anyone to do homework when playing the game. But when one enters certain group content it is not unreasonable for the rest of the group to expect that 1 guy to be able to perform at the required level. This mostly applies to vet content tho. But if people dont care about rising from the floor why should the ceiling be lowered to meet them? The floor doesnt care.

Actually weaving has created a huge amount of the difference. If you took the exact same player, with the same gear, he could do 100k with weaving and 80k without using the exact same rotation, that is a very large difference. One way that would actually help bring the floor and ceiling together is to reduce the damage of light attacks and increase the damage of spammable abilities to an according amount. Your rotation would be still be important but the weaving part would be made far less important.

Mahabahabtha · April 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Zos doesnt really teach anything in Eso. This is not limited to weaving. Zos doesnt even teach you that stam costing abilites scale with weapon damage/max stam only.

And again: Weaving hasnt created the situation with floor and ceiling as it is now. The gap is created by lack of knowledge on how to set up a character optimally. One example: 2 people parse. Player 1 runs a BiS build for PvE dps. While he misses 40% of LAs and recasts some dots late he still hits decent numbers. Player 2 runs ebon, lord warden and Salvation. He hits every light attack and executes a perfect rotation. He will still be several 1000s of dps behind Player 1.

Why does something have to give? The middle can easily achieve a level of performance to be able to clear nearly everything comfortably. They might not get the trifectas or the dps check on the last boss in Sunspire hardmode but vet trials can easily be done without being at the top. Also what do you define as the middle here? Everything between the floor and ceiling still has potential to have massive gaps between them.

And sure people play to have fun. No one forces anyone to do homework when playing the game. But when one enters certain group content it is not unreasonable for the rest of the group to expect that 1 guy to be able to perform at the required level. This mostly applies to vet content tho. But if people dont care about rising from the floor why should the ceiling be lowered to meet them? The floor doesnt care.

Actually weaving has created a huge amount of the difference. If you took the exact same player, with the same gear, he could do 100k with weaving and 80k without using the exact same rotation, that is a very large difference. One way that would actually help bring the floor and ceiling together is to reduce the damage of light attacks and increase the damage of spammable abilities to an according amount. Your rotation would be still be important but the weaving part would be made far less important.

Would you contradict that more than 50 k isn´t necessary in this game ?

Sanctum74 · April 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

Hmm, reading your post a thought occured to me. If they got rid of the LA weaving they could introduce buffs specific to a dungeon only useable in that dungeon trial etc. Just throwing that out there. You would get a buff from a npc in the dungeon or trial and it would last as long as you are in there. I'm just speculating of course. But I digress I think horizontal progress is possible. You either have to lower the ceiling or raise the floor more. As far as weaving if it wasn't something they originally intended I wouldn't expect them to actually teach people how to do it. That wouldn't be logical. Leaving it in game is another matter that has created the situation as it is now a large gap. There maybe that 1%who will always be on top but there are a whole bunch in the middle who don't want to be left behind. So something has to give right? People play to have fun that is the main point fun is defined differently for different people. Truly I don't want homework to have to play a game. This is just my perspective on the issue.

Zos doesnt really teach anything in Eso. This is not limited to weaving. Zos doesnt even teach you that stam costing abilites scale with weapon damage/max stam only.

And again: Weaving hasnt created the situation with floor and ceiling as it is now. The gap is created by lack of knowledge on how to set up a character optimally. One example: 2 people parse. Player 1 runs a BiS build for PvE dps. While he misses 40% of LAs and recasts some dots late he still hits decent numbers. Player 2 runs ebon, lord warden and Salvation. He hits every light attack and executes a perfect rotation. He will still be several 1000s of dps behind Player 1.

Why does something have to give? The middle can easily achieve a level of performance to be able to clear nearly everything comfortably. They might not get the trifectas or the dps check on the last boss in Sunspire hardmode but vet trials can easily be done without being at the top. Also what do you define as the middle here? Everything between the floor and ceiling still has potential to have massive gaps between them.

And sure people play to have fun. No one forces anyone to do homework when playing the game. But when one enters certain group content it is not unreasonable for the rest of the group to expect that 1 guy to be able to perform at the required level. This mostly applies to vet content tho. But if people dont care about rising from the floor why should the ceiling be lowered to meet them? The floor doesnt care.

Actually weaving has created a huge amount of the difference. If you took the exact same player, with the same gear, he could do 100k with weaving and 80k without using the exact same rotation, that is a very large difference. One way that would actually help bring the floor and ceiling together is to reduce the damage of light attacks and increase the damage of spammable abilities to an according amount. Your rotation would be still be important but the weaving part would be made far less important.

That’s not a big difference at all and shows that a proper rotation, gear, and buffs are much more important than weaving.

Removing weaving is not an option as there are skills, armor sets, ult gen, and glyphs which rely on it so either accept its part of the game and either improve or have a small decrease in damage that is not going to prevent you from doing any content.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

Actually weaving has created a huge amount of the difference. If you took the exact same player, with the same gear, he could do 100k with weaving and 80k without using the exact same rotation, that is a very large difference. One way that would actually help bring the floor and ceiling together is to reduce the damage of light attacks and increase the damage of spammable abilities to an according amount. Your rotation would be still be important but the weaving part would be made far less important.

Actually it would bring the floor and the ceiling farther appart since the absolute lowest outside of people that just stand there and do nothing is people spamming light attacks and little else.
Yes weaving is a part of the difference. But setup is a bigger part.
A player doing a perfect rotation and LA weaving in a BiS setup might do 100k.
The same player doing a perfect rotation without weaving in a BiS setup might get 80k.
The same player will struggle to get even a fraction of that if he is in a build unsuited to dealing damage. And you see those quite often at the floor.

The only way to get the floor close to the ceiling is to nerf the ceiling so heavily that they are close to the floor. Not because the floor cant rise, most in the floor certainly have the potential to, but the floor does not care about improving. So they will always stay far away from the ceiling until the ceiling crashes down. Your change might bring a part of the floor a bit closer but ultimately there is very little Zos can do to buff an uncaring floor without buffing a ceiling that always finds the most optimal build.
Another thing to consider with buffing spammables is dots. Depending on how much spammables get buffed dots will also have to get buffed or we end up in a meta where casting dots is a dps loss over slotting an ability for its passive only again. And if you buff dots to keep up the ceilings damage will increase again and the floors likely wont or by a much smaller amount.
Your idea isnt bad or anything but I honestly still dont see why the floor that does not want to improve or be close to the ceiling needs to be close to the ceiling.

Animus-ESO · April 2021

Alurria wrote: »

Animus-ESO wrote: »

Harder pve content breeds better players. Until they make pve even remotely challenging instead of the weenie hut jr cake walk it is now, none of the player base is going to improve. Why would they learn to dodge or block mechanics if there is no risk of getting punished for ignoring it.

Increase the difficulty of over land and story missions and watch how quickly the average player will improve and adapt. Not only will the game community band together and actually help each other but the story will actually feel like it has meaning again since you can't 3 tap molog baal making the whole story line in the game feel like a joke.

Where's my rolled up newspaper j/k I don't see the relevance in punishing players by making it hard. I mean if people liked being punished for playing there would still be millions of us playing EQ. Or similar games that caused you to delevel if you died, or retrieve your body or how about having to study your magic book before you could use spells again. Yes MMOs have come a long way from the torture it use to be. I see no reason why any sane company would punish people in their game and expect to keep people playing it.

No one said anything about taking away levels or EXP, The punishment is dieing, losing durability on armor and having to start the fight over.

Repetition = Learning

Asking for help = Learning

Teaming with other players to help conquer challenges = learning

You know what isn't going to cause learning? Blasting threw every NPC like paper.

This is an MMO, ESO has done a really *** job at building any kind of community and the laughably easy PVE is to blame.

Alurria · April 2021

Thank you for answering my questions.

Flamebait · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

Actually weaving has created a huge amount of the difference. If you took the exact same player, with the same gear, he could do 100k with weaving and 80k without using the exact same rotation, that is a very large difference. One way that would actually help bring the floor and ceiling together is to reduce the damage of light attacks and increase the damage of spammable abilities to an according amount. Your rotation would be still be important but the weaving part would be made far less important.

Actually it would bring the floor and the ceiling farther appart since the absolute lowest outside of people that just stand there and do nothing is people spamming light attacks and little else.
Yes weaving is a part of the difference. But setup is a bigger part.
A player doing a perfect rotation and LA weaving in a BiS setup might do 100k.
The same player doing a perfect rotation without weaving in a BiS setup might get 80k.
The same player will struggle to get even a fraction of that if he is in a build unsuited to dealing damage. And you see those quite often at the floor.

The only way to get the floor close to the ceiling is to nerf the ceiling so heavily that they are close to the floor. Not because the floor cant rise, most in the floor certainly have the potential to, but the floor does not care about improving. So they will always stay far away from the ceiling until the ceiling crashes down. Your change might bring a part of the floor a bit closer but ultimately there is very little Zos can do to buff an uncaring floor without buffing a ceiling that always finds the most optimal build.
Another thing to consider with buffing spammables is dots. Depending on how much spammables get buffed dots will also have to get buffed or we end up in a meta where casting dots is a dps loss over slotting an ability for its passive only again. And if you buff dots to keep up the ceilings damage will increase again and the floors likely wont or by a much smaller amount.
Your idea isnt bad or anything but I honestly still dont see why the floor that does not want to improve or be close to the ceiling needs to be close to the ceiling.

Well a big part of the reason for needing to raise the floor is simply because the floor is happy with where they are and how things are right now. However the people at and near the ceiling are constantly calling for everything to be made harder since overland and normal dungeon are no challenge to them. As for dots and such they would actually be fine, since if you did it as a even switch, say remove 90% of a light attacks damage and increase a spammable by an equal amount, you would still use the dots and everything else same as you do right now when weaving, or lose the dps they normally add without a gain since the spammable would be the same damage you used to get from spammable and LA.

I agree there is a limit on how much the floor can come up, but at the same time I have seen guild members who feel that to contribute to vet trials and vet dlc they have to sit in a house for hours just running rotations over and over to get the weaving just that little bit closer because it gives such a significant boost, and that is just a bit silly for a game. At the same time there are a lot of players who have no interest in improving because they want something that is no thought simple to relax with, I do that myself sometimes. Plus I get zero sense of achievement from a video game so going from 75k to 80k isn't really going to make me feel anything better, whereas the time spent doing something that is so boring and not fun to me, as to get the rotation tighter would actually disgust me and probably make me want to quit.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Flamebait wrote: »

I agree there is a limit on how much the floor can come up, but at the same time I have seen guild members who feel that to contribute to vet trials and vet dlc they have to sit in a house for hours just running rotations over and over to get the weaving just that little bit closer because it gives such a significant boost, and that is just a bit silly for a game. At the same time there are a lot of players who have no interest in improving because they want something that is no thought simple to relax with, I do that myself sometimes. Plus I get zero sense of achievement from a video game so going from 75k to 80k isn't really going to make me feel anything better, whereas the time spent doing something that is so boring and not fun to me, as to get the rotation tighter would actually disgust me and probably make me want to quit.

To be frank what your guild members are feeling is on them. You dont need super high dps for everything that isnt vet trial trifectas or sunpsire hardmode. You just need to be good at mechanics while making dps checks. But making dps checks and being close to the ceiling are quite different things. Remember, people cleared vmol hm with maybe 40k dps on dds back in thieves guild and skipping lunar phase wasnt a requirement for groups, instead everyone was expected to know how to resolve it. For vAS+2 for example you just need enough dps to reasonably kill the minis before they enrage and to have time to damage the main boss. Sure not having super high dps makes it easier to mess up but you dont need super high dps outside of sunspire hardmode.

If you dont get a sense of achievement from doing it then dont unless it is a preequisite for something else you want to do. If people dont want to improve thats fine, their choice and all but why should Zos do it for them if they themselves do not care enough to? Most of the people at the floor will never touch content that they would actually need to improve for.

Flamebait · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

To be frank what your guild members are feeling is on them. You dont need super high dps for everything that isnt vet trial trifectas or sunpsire hardmode. You just need to be good at mechanics while making dps checks. But making dps checks and being close to the ceiling are quite different things. Remember, people cleared vmol hm with maybe 40k dps on dds back in thieves guild and skipping lunar phase wasnt a requirement for groups, instead everyone was expected to know how to resolve it. For vAS+2 for example you just need enough dps to reasonably kill the minis before they enrage and to have time to damage the main boss. Sure not having super high dps makes it easier to mess up but you dont need super high dps outside of sunspire hardmode.

If you dont get a sense of achievement from doing it then dont unless it is a preequisite for something else you want to do. If people dont want to improve thats fine, their choice and all but why should Zos do it for them if they themselves do not care enough to? Most of the people at the floor will never touch content that they would actually need to improve for.

I will definitely agree with you on the thing about what they feel, and honestly I'm pretty sure it isn't so much about needing the dps to clear content as wanting to do better. Some people simply have the drive to want to compete with others for no reason other than to compete. As for myself I don't do anything I don't want to, and I am fine with it honestly. My purpose in posting here was simply about the comments that have been going back and forth in the forums about this stuff. I honestly have no real concern either way was simply offering a method that could work as a solution without requiring a massive change all around. Also do not forge that Zenimax has said flat out that they wanted to bring the ceiling down, and if you look at eso logs people are still parsing over 110k, there is a person on there at 141k, and yes I am aware that this is not out in the game dps, but this was meant to be nerfed, so more will probably be coming anyways.