How to solve meta races problem.

Xargas13 · April 2021

I think some min/maxers will love this. I will start a bit from afar...

I've been playing Elder Scrolls games since Morrowind, and the best thing I like about these games, is that no matter what race you choose you will be fine in your desired role in the end, yes you might put a little more effort in leveling your desired skills if you didn't choose the said meta race for your build, but in the end you will be as strong as meta races. All it came down to, at least for me, which race you want to be, ults like in skyrim was just a bonus.

And that brings me to my point. Instead of adding damage or healing or some strong passive or whatever create a mechanic called "Training", I was thinking to make it in a skill line like Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood, you have to level it to 10 or so and you will get all the bonuses you desired. Another option would be just make a player go through a series of quests and that's it. Additionally you can abandon the training and go for the one you like more now. Also, for someone like redguard, leveling spell casting training, it would take more time, while if redguard levels in weapon damage, he/she would level faster etc.

But there is a trick to all this, race passives should stay, but only which define the race, for example, argonians should be resistant to poison and disease, dunmer should be more resistant to fire etc. etc. I don't really know which passives should stay on other races as I have not played them and I don't know all the lore. All I'm saying don't put strong passives as racial passives, make them as a little bonus.

I think it would solve rerolling other race for a lot of people, and everyone can play race they like the most while having passives they desire for their build. Then again it might partially solve it, since some might really like those minor buffs of the race and go just for that, I know people that rolled khajit in Skyrim game just because they liked night vision, but I don't see any way around that as those passives is what define the race. But it's better then nothing I think.

In support of this in the lore, we sometimes see something like redguard in the Psijic Order, and most of us know that Psijics are hard core spell casters, and redguards are not really that. In Morrowind solo game, there was argonian in the Mages Guild that was respected even by members of House Telvanni... I'm sure there are a lot of examples like that, but that's what comes to mind.

This would increase population of other races too, since no one is now bound by their passives.

Thoughts?

zvavi · April 2021

no more grind please.

phaneub17_ESO · April 2021

6 Classes and 10 races, give me 60 character slots and I'll fill them all.

Runefang · April 2021

Give me new passives to replace race passives so they’re not connected and I’ll be happy. Or put them into the CP system somehow. Or give me a new gear slot that emulates them.

In any case I’d love to be an Argonian that can dps as well as everything else.

Brrrofski · April 2021

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Xargas13 · April 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Well, I saw at least a couple of posts about racial changes with the new patch, so there is a problem for few people, and where is one, there is many. And my favorite race has horrid DPS racials, and while I'm doing fine for the most part, I notice the difference when I play pure DPS race. I think what I suggest would fit well with Elder Scrolls style of handling things.

EDIT: I play mostly PvP so every DPS number matters for me, as it can be sometimes life and death situation, and while I do my best, I don't really care how much damage I put on a mob in dungeon.

Septimus_Magna · April 2021

It would be cool if there was Racial Training School where players could pick and level the desired passives. For racial slot I you could choose to level passive A, B or C, same for racial slots II and III.

Where an Altmer might quickly learn spell dmg passive it might take a Redguard longer but it would still be possible to learn it. Maybe not to the exact same amount but to 80% of the Altmer value for example.

This way you keep the small benefit of the magicka and stamina races but having rolled a Breton would not prevent you from switching to a stam build.

StarOfElyon · April 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Stam builds need magicka too. A stamina build with a Breton in heavy armor doesn't have to worry about magicka sustain or taking damage from magical attacks due to their extra resistances to magic. I know this because I have a Breton tank. Just build for stamina and you're good.

Athan1 · April 2021

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

Ryuvain · April 2021

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

That just leads everyone to be a big orc guy for all damage or tankiness. Boring imo. Shouldn't variety be a good thing?

Taggund · April 2021

It would be nice if each race had majicka and stamina passives, and you could just choose which path you want (or do both if desired and you want to allocate the skill points as such).

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2021

Xargas13 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Well, I saw at least a couple of posts about racial changes with the new patch, so there is a problem for few people, and where is one, there is many. And my favorite race has horrid DPS racials, and while I'm doing fine for the most part, I notice the difference when I play pure DPS race. I think what I suggest would fit well with Elder Scrolls style of handling things.

EDIT: I play mostly PvP so every DPS number matters for me, as it can be sometimes life and death situation, and while I do my best, I don't really care how much damage I put on a mob in dungeon.

You will continue to see those posts because some players are up in arms about bosmer stealth, which has nothing to do with dps in any way. Not that this is the only pain point for some but keep in mind that races are closer than ever before.

I take you're a nord? That extra mitigation and ult gain is worth a lot as those are a tad harder to come by than stam or weapon damage. Especially in pvp you don't exactly need "the meta race" as you can build more freely depending on your playstyle. While we're at playstyles, not everyone plays a damage dealer. Keep in mind.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

That just leads everyone to be a big orc guy for all damage or tankiness. Boring imo. Shouldn't variety be a good thing?

Huh? Alone for stamina DD top races are khajiit, orc, dunmer from the top of my head. How is that "orc or bust"?

LettuceBrain · April 2021

I don't think this should be a thing. Many of these "strong" passives are lore based. We all know Altmer are excellent spell casters, so why shouldn't they have good racial passives for magicka? You talk about how there is the occasional Redguard in the Psijic Order and stuff like that, but there is a reason that the vast majority of the Psijic Order and Mage Guild are races with magicka passives in game - it is supported by the lore. I don't think a system should be made just to satisfy the people who want to make a spellcaster out of a race who according to the lore is not a good spellcaster. Sorry, but I just don't want it and I don't think the game needs it.

Goregrinder · April 2021

My thoughts on this is that there is no meta race problem. Min-maxers will always go for what is best no matter what changes you make. You cannot get rid of a metagame. Ever. That does not mean you have to participate in it, you're free to play how you want. But minimal effort affords minimal rewards. Maximum effort affords maximum rewards.

LettuceBrain · April 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

My thoughts on this is that there is no meta race problem. Min-maxers will always go for what is best no matter what changes you make. You cannot get rid of a metagame. Ever. That does not mean you have to participate in it, you're free to play how you want. But minimal effort affords minimal rewards. Maximum effort affords maximum rewards.

Exactly, you don’t have to play the meta so there is no reason to change anything.

PrancerOnCloudz · April 2021

I think the game is based on a series of games that all tell a story that many are devoted to. Erasing the racial passives would erase the identity and culture of the game. I can't agree with that.

BejaProphet · April 2021

You could perfectly balance it if you really wanted to. Have the same pool of benefits but make the cost race specific.

Example: every race could get 2k health from racial skill tree. For an imperial it comes in 1k increments for a total of two skill points. For a wood elf it comes in 400 health increments for a total of 5 skill points.

Make sure the final result is exact same total skill points for every race. For meta min maxing race becomes irrelevant but for immersion the distinction in races remain. A given race, while leveling, will display distinct racial advantages for a given role, but ultimately your favorite race will be able to do any role you want with no disadvantage.

I am NOT saying we should or need to do this, I’m just saying a system that accomplishes both is possible.

Ryuvain · April 2021

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Well, I saw at least a couple of posts about racial changes with the new patch, so there is a problem for few people, and where is one, there is many. And my favorite race has horrid DPS racials, and while I'm doing fine for the most part, I notice the difference when I play pure DPS race. I think what I suggest would fit well with Elder Scrolls style of handling things.

EDIT: I play mostly PvP so every DPS number matters for me, as it can be sometimes life and death situation, and while I do my best, I don't really care how much damage I put on a mob in dungeon.

You will continue to see those posts because some players are up in arms about bosmer stealth, which has nothing to do with dps in any way. Not that this is the only pain point for some but keep in mind that races are closer than ever before.

I take you're a nord? That extra mitigation and ult gain is worth a lot as those are a tad harder to come by than stam or weapon damage. Especially in pvp you don't exactly need "the meta race" as you can build more freely depending on your playstyle. While we're at playstyles, not everyone plays a damage dealer. Keep in mind.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

That just leads everyone to be a big orc guy for all damage or tankiness. Boring imo. Shouldn't variety be a good thing?

Huh? Alone for stamina DD top races are khajiit, orc, dunmer from the top of my head. How is that "orc or bust"?

Min-max will always choose the single best race.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There isn't a problem.

The DPS difference between absolute top and absolute bottom is very small. Like 6% on a perfect rotation.

If you don't care about absolute top numbers, it's irrelevant.

For PvP, race isn't the be all end all. Whatever your race gives you, you can make up in other ways, especially the new CP tree.

You're a nord that gives you resistances but not damage, don't slot the resistance xp and slot another damage CP. Wood elf that gives you a lot of sustain, you can use different food or a different red CP.

Only absolute waste I can think of is Breton stam build. Even wood elf mag builds for instance means you can probably not have to invest much or any Stam into your build at all.

Well, I saw at least a couple of posts about racial changes with the new patch, so there is a problem for few people, and where is one, there is many. And my favorite race has horrid DPS racials, and while I'm doing fine for the most part, I notice the difference when I play pure DPS race. I think what I suggest would fit well with Elder Scrolls style of handling things.

EDIT: I play mostly PvP so every DPS number matters for me, as it can be sometimes life and death situation, and while I do my best, I don't really care how much damage I put on a mob in dungeon.

You will continue to see those posts because some players are up in arms about bosmer stealth, which has nothing to do with dps in any way. Not that this is the only pain point for some but keep in mind that races are closer than ever before.

I take you're a nord? That extra mitigation and ult gain is worth a lot as those are a tad harder to come by than stam or weapon damage. Especially in pvp you don't exactly need "the meta race" as you can build more freely depending on your playstyle. While we're at playstyles, not everyone plays a damage dealer. Keep in mind.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

That just leads everyone to be a big orc guy for all damage or tankiness. Boring imo. Shouldn't variety be a good thing?

Huh? Alone for stamina DD top races are khajiit, orc, dunmer from the top of my head. How is that "orc or bust"?

Min-max will always choose the single best race.

Hardcore min-maxers and FotM chasers usually don't care about the character model.

Djennku · April 2021

One way to 'fix' a perceived issue with what race to choose is to not care what anyone else thinks and play what you personally enjoy. Racial passives matter very little in how well your character is going to perform, and when building a character, it's very easy to wiggle a few stats here and there and make adjustments to compensate for any difference in passives between races.

Quite often higher numbers on paper can be a detriment in actual content when you have to account for sustain, procs, and mechanics among other things while in actual content and not against a rigged dummy that's missing half the available buffs it could have.

There's also the acronym "meta" to consider. "Most Effective Tactic Available" has to take into consideration things like specific situations and encounters, as well as the overall character build setup you are using. Doing the most damage possible is not really the most effective thing if you are dying all the time or constantly running out of resources as an example. It can also hugely depend on a person's playstyle, and while one thing may work well for one person, it can be completely ineffective for another.

You also need to consider that some races like wood elf, while having passives that give boosts for going all out in stamina, can also be really effective for magicka characters as well, as extra stam and stam recovery means more blocking, dodging, bashing, sprinting, etc, as well as being able to do it more often can have a big impact on how well that character performs in combat.

So it's really not very effective at all to pidgeon-hole certain races into certain roles, because any race can enhance what you do on your character regardless of passives.

It all really comes down to choice, and that's the one really important thing about how ESO is unique.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2021

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

Exactly my feeling as well.

Racial choice has always been meaningful in Elder Scrolls games and it should continue to be so in ESO.

Athan1 · April 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

I like having racial passives. FFXIV removed any racial passives over the years, and now everyone is an inappropriate bunny or cat. Our choice of race should be meaningful.

That just leads everyone to be a big orc guy for all damage or tankiness. Boring imo. Shouldn't variety be a good thing?

Wut?! Imperial master race!

Scardan · April 2021

If you do not get group for a vet hardcore xxx trial because you are, lets say, dual wield DD argonian and you do not want to change your race, then you do not want to be a hardcore raider, that is all. There is no OP sets to be found either.

If you want to be a hardcore super dupa self proclaimed "one of the top 1% best players in the whole game" raider, then you will not care about roleplay aspect of race choice at all. The only thing you care is to grow your self esteem in score runs.

In other words: do not fix what is not broken. There is no meta race problem in my opinion. Everything just works.