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Thoughts on "raising floors, lowering ceilings"
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Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
There are plenty players with great gear that pull low dps so I dont think capping stats would help one bit.
In the beginning of the game there were soft and hard caps on most stats, average players would pull 500-600 dps but the top was pulling around 1200-1500 depending on the class. Its basically the same difference you still see today.
Its not like ESO has very complicated rotations, its usually a couple ground AOEs, a couple DOT/buffs and a spammable. Literally every magicka class can use blockade + orb and a spammable to deal more than 20k dps. There's just not enough incentive for players to learn these things.
Well if ZOS has created dungeons and boss fights where 100K DPS allows for all mechanics and everything as intended but at 110K DPS mechanics get broken and skipped (And they do NOT want that as they say) they could simple add a CAP on DPS for that fight. Meaning the group could do 100K damage per second but anything above that would just be lost. This way they could make all fights within the bounds that they intended and it wouldn't matter what players did (ie eliminate the exploit).
In addition to making each boss fight more challenging and engaging, it would eliminate the need for people to think DPS is the be all end all and forcing everyone else to play the game in a way that isn't fun at all and is more like a bad job. People could actually have fun playing a game, what a concept.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
There are plenty players with great gear that pull low dps so I dont think capping stats would help one bit.
In the beginning of the game there were soft and hard caps on most stats, average players would pull 500-600 dps but the top was pulling around 1200-1500 depending on the class. Its basically the same difference you still see today.
Its not like ESO has very complicated rotations, its usually a couple ground AOEs, a couple DOT/buffs and a spammable. Literally every magicka class can use blockade + orb and a spammable to deal more than 20k dps. There's just not enough incentive for players to learn these things.
Well if ZOS has created dungeons and boss fights where 100K DPS allows for all mechanics and everything as intended but at 110K DPS mechanics get broken and skipped (And they do NOT want that as they say) they could simple add a CAP on DPS for that fight. Meaning the group could do 100K damage per second but anything above that would just be lost. This way they could make all fights within the bounds that they intended and it wouldn't matter what players did (ie eliminate the exploit).
In addition to making each boss fight more challenging and engaging, it would eliminate the need for people to think DPS is the be all end all and forcing everyone else to play the game in a way that isn't fun at all and is more like a bad job. People could actually have fun playing a game, what a concept.
A. You keep saying that word: exploit. There is no exploit involved in getting high DPS. Those players are using their skills and particularly their light attack weaving exactly as ZOS now intends.
B. I played ESO back when there was a cap on DPS. It worked like this: while leveling, there was a artificial miss chance that prevented me from hitting enemies too far above my level. My Stam Sorc could handle those enemies just fine, but ZOS didn't want me getting too far of what ZOS thought I could handle. And so the miss chance kicked in, and all of a sudden I couldn't fight because I was missing all the time. I had to walk away and grind on lower level enemies for a while.
It wasn't fun. It was frustrating. I could fight at that level. I wanted to fight at that level. The only thing stopping me was ZOS.
And that's what DPS caps do to players. Now, it might feel great to look at it from a perspective that says "Well, the cap is 20k DPS for this dungeon, so no one will ever pressure me to do 30k for a little faster run, hurray!" But from the perspective of someone who can do more than 20k DPS, it feels like an artifical limit where they are held back not by their own skill but purely by ZOS. That's not fun. It's frustrating for those players.
You talk about DPS as not being the be-all, end-all and not forcing players to play the game in a way that isn't fun.
A. This ignores that the "floor" is sitting at around 5k DPS. Most of my normal dungeon DPS do just fine with somewhere between 7-15k DPS. Sometimes it's a long dungeon, but we usually always clear. With only 15k DPS, you can clear the easy vet dungeons. At 20k to 30k, you're going to be pretty average for a normal trial or vet dungeon. How low do you want your DPS cap to sit so that we're not forcing players to play the game "like a bad job" in order to do stuff like vet dungeons or basic trials and arenas?
As a tank main, I'd love to see "the floor" go up so most players doing 10-15k DPS in normal dungeons. That's not going to break mechanics, its really not. If the floor went up to most players doing 15-20k DPS, I think we'd see that vet dungeons become much more accessible to more players, and that's a good thing! Again, that's not going to break mechanics. It's going to make more players capable of doing the mechanics in the first place!
B. Have you considered that artifical DPS caps would in fact make end game content less fun for some players, in a similar way that you say feeling pressured to hit certain DPS parses makes end game content less fun for other players?13 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
There are plenty players with great gear that pull low dps so I dont think capping stats would help one bit.
In the beginning of the game there were soft and hard caps on most stats, average players would pull 500-600 dps but the top was pulling around 1200-1500 depending on the class. Its basically the same difference you still see today.
Its not like ESO has very complicated rotations, its usually a couple ground AOEs, a couple DOT/buffs and a spammable. Literally every magicka class can use blockade + orb and a spammable to deal more than 20k dps. There's just not enough incentive for players to learn these things.
Well if ZOS has created dungeons and boss fights where 100K DPS allows for all mechanics and everything as intended but at 110K DPS mechanics get broken and skipped (And they do NOT want that as they say) they could simple add a CAP on DPS for that fight. Meaning the group could do 100K damage per second but anything above that would just be lost. This way they could make all fights within the bounds that they intended and it wouldn't matter what players did (ie eliminate the exploit).
In addition to making each boss fight more challenging and engaging, it would eliminate the need for people to think DPS is the be all end all and forcing everyone else to play the game in a way that isn't fun at all and is more like a bad job. People could actually have fun playing a game, what a concept.
A. You keep saying that word: exploit. There is no exploit involved in getting high DPS. Those players are using their skills and particularly their light attack weaving exactly as ZOS now intends.
B. I played ESO back when there was a cap on DPS. It worked like this: while leveling, there was a artificial miss chance that prevented me from hitting enemies too far above my level. My Stam Sorc could handle those enemies just fine, but ZOS didn't want me getting too far of what ZOS thought I could handle. And so the miss chance kicked in, and all of a sudden I couldn't fight because I was missing all the time. I had to walk away and grind on lower level enemies for a while.
It wasn't fun. It was frustrating. I could fight at that level. I wanted to fight at that level. The only thing stopping me was ZOS.
And that's what DPS caps do to players. Now, it might feel great to look at it from a perspective that says "Well, the cap is 20k DPS for this dungeon, so no one will ever pressure me to do 30k for a little faster run, hurray!" But from the perspective of someone who can do more than 20k DPS, it feels like an artifical limit where they are held back not by their own skill but purely by ZOS. That's not fun. It's frustrating for those players.
You talk about DPS as not being the be-all, end-all and not forcing players to play the game in a way that isn't fun.
A. This ignores that the "floor" is sitting at around 5k DPS. Most of my normal dungeon DPS do just fine with somewhere between 7-15k DPS. Sometimes it's a long dungeon, but we usually always clear. With only 15k DPS, you can clear the easy vet dungeons. At 20k to 30k, you're going to be pretty average for a normal trial or vet dungeon. How low do you want your DPS cap to sit so that we're not forcing players to play the game "like a bad job" in order to do stuff like vet dungeons or basic trials and arenas?
As a tank main, I'd love to see "the floor" go up so most players doing 10-15k DPS in normal dungeons. That's not going to break mechanics, its really not. If the floor went up to most players doing 15-20k DPS, I think we'd see that vet dungeons become much more accessible to more players, and that's a good thing! Again, that's not going to break mechanics. It's going to make more players capable of doing the mechanics in the first place!
B. Have you considered that artifical DPS caps would in fact make end game content less fun for some players, in a similar way that you say feeling pressured to hit certain DPS parses makes end game content less fun for other players?
ZOS has already stated that there is a problem with people doing so much DPS that they are bypassing mechanics (which is textbook definition of exploit but let's forget about that, call it skill if you want).
The team that creates boss fights has a specific level of DPS at the low end to beat a boss and at the high end NOT TO BYPASS Mechanics. They know what that is supposed to be, call it artificial, but the fact is this can not be unlimited. So they need to be able to help people do enough to get through which they already did, I did 500 random dailies in the past 3 months and had NO PROBLEM getting through all of it (as tank, even as healer it was harder at times but easy) It is a myth that normal players are as bad as people like you keep saying.
And ZOS has toned down by a great extent MoS, Sclclr, MHK, etc, essentially every dungeon I used to think was hard has had many mechanics and almost all 1 shots reduced. Next they will be giving everyone a 20+K DPS companion bot which will permanently solve this issue, even for vet.
The only problem I see now is the extreme power creep that needs to be addressed. And I am not talking about tweaking little things here and there and hoping it all works out. I am literally saying that each boss should have a DPS shield which allows DPS at the maximum level to NOT bypass mechanics but just doesn't damage the bosses faster than that. As I said if 110K DPS will allow someone to bypass mech, but 100K won't, let 100K happen then block 10K per second. It is actually very simple and hurts no one except people who are 'exploiting' high DPS to bypass intended mechanics. Which they will never stop doing on their own and seem dead set on trying to make everyone else do that same thing they are doing.
To be honest I don't care what actually happens I will have fun however I want. It is just a bit annoying when a tiny group of people keep trying to tell everyone else what to do with their fun time.Edited by Merforum on April 14, 2021 8:49PM4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
There are plenty players with great gear that pull low dps so I dont think capping stats would help one bit.
In the beginning of the game there were soft and hard caps on most stats, average players would pull 500-600 dps but the top was pulling around 1200-1500 depending on the class. Its basically the same difference you still see today.
Its not like ESO has very complicated rotations, its usually a couple ground AOEs, a couple DOT/buffs and a spammable. Literally every magicka class can use blockade + orb and a spammable to deal more than 20k dps. There's just not enough incentive for players to learn these things.
Well if ZOS has created dungeons and boss fights where 100K DPS allows for all mechanics and everything as intended but at 110K DPS mechanics get broken and skipped (And they do NOT want that as they say) they could simple add a CAP on DPS for that fight. Meaning the group could do 100K damage per second but anything above that would just be lost. This way they could make all fights within the bounds that they intended and it wouldn't matter what players did (ie eliminate the exploit).
In addition to making each boss fight more challenging and engaging, it would eliminate the need for people to think DPS is the be all end all and forcing everyone else to play the game in a way that isn't fun at all and is more like a bad job. People could actually have fun playing a game, what a concept.
A. You keep saying that word: exploit. There is no exploit involved in getting high DPS. Those players are using their skills and particularly their light attack weaving exactly as ZOS now intends.
B. I played ESO back when there was a cap on DPS. It worked like this: while leveling, there was a artificial miss chance that prevented me from hitting enemies too far above my level. My Stam Sorc could handle those enemies just fine, but ZOS didn't want me getting too far of what ZOS thought I could handle. And so the miss chance kicked in, and all of a sudden I couldn't fight because I was missing all the time. I had to walk away and grind on lower level enemies for a while.
It wasn't fun. It was frustrating. I could fight at that level. I wanted to fight at that level. The only thing stopping me was ZOS.
And that's what DPS caps do to players. Now, it might feel great to look at it from a perspective that says "Well, the cap is 20k DPS for this dungeon, so no one will ever pressure me to do 30k for a little faster run, hurray!" But from the perspective of someone who can do more than 20k DPS, it feels like an artifical limit where they are held back not by their own skill but purely by ZOS. That's not fun. It's frustrating for those players.
You talk about DPS as not being the be-all, end-all and not forcing players to play the game in a way that isn't fun.
A. This ignores that the "floor" is sitting at around 5k DPS. Most of my normal dungeon DPS do just fine with somewhere between 7-15k DPS. Sometimes it's a long dungeon, but we usually always clear. With only 15k DPS, you can clear the easy vet dungeons. At 20k to 30k, you're going to be pretty average for a normal trial or vet dungeon. How low do you want your DPS cap to sit so that we're not forcing players to play the game "like a bad job" in order to do stuff like vet dungeons or basic trials and arenas?
As a tank main, I'd love to see "the floor" go up so most players doing 10-15k DPS in normal dungeons. That's not going to break mechanics, its really not. If the floor went up to most players doing 15-20k DPS, I think we'd see that vet dungeons become much more accessible to more players, and that's a good thing! Again, that's not going to break mechanics. It's going to make more players capable of doing the mechanics in the first place!
B. Have you considered that artifical DPS caps would in fact make end game content less fun for some players, in a similar way that you say feeling pressured to hit certain DPS parses makes end game content less fun for other players?
ZOS has already stated that there is a problem with people doing so much DPS that they are bypassing mechanics (which is textbook definition of exploit but let's forget about that, call it skill if you want).
The team that creates boss fights has a specific level of DPS at the low end to beat a boss and at the high end NOT TO BYPASS Mechanics. They know what that is supposed to be, call it artificial, but the fact is this can not be unlimited. So they need to be able to help people do enough to get through which they already did, I did 500 random dailies in the past 3 months and had NO PROBLEM getting through all of it (as tank, even as healer it was harder at times but easy) It is a myth that normal players are as bad as people like you keep saying.
And ZOS has toned down by a great extent MoS, Sclclr, MHK, etc, essentially every dungeon I used to think was hard has had many mechanics and almost all 1 shots removed. Next they will be giving everyone a 20+K DPS companion bot which will permanently solve this issue, even for vet.
The only problem I see now is the extreme power creep that needs to be addressed. And I am not talking about tweaking little things here and there and hoping it all works out. I am literally saying that each boss should have a DPS shield which allows DPS at the maximum level to NOT bypass mechanics but just doesn't damage the bosses faster than that. As I said if 110K DPS will allow someone to bypass mech, but 100K won't, let 100K happen then block 10K per second. It is actually very simple and hurts no one except people who are 'exploiting' high DPS to bypass intended mechanics. Which they will never stop doing on their own and seem dead set on trying to make everyone else do that same thing they are doing.
To be honest I don't care what actually happens I will have fun however I want. It is just a bit annoying when a tiny group of people keep trying to tell everyone else what to do with their fun time.
I strongly disagree with your definition of an exploit. "Bypassing mechanics" is more akin to something like "I chained up on top of a keep wall and jumped inside instead of breaking down the wall" in Cyrodiil. Or "I stood in a corner and caltroped the boss to death instead of fighting."
I've not yet heard of one example where appropriately using the skills, gear, and gameplay mechanics the Devs introduced to "kill a boss too fast" is an actual exploit. (If it is, then we need to have a long, long talk about how easy overland quest bosses are.)
But I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.
I also don't know why you think I'm saying normal people are bad. 7-15k DPS, which is what I usually see with Combat Metrics, is perfectly adequate to most normal dungeons. Heck, I've soloed Banished Cells 1 with only 7k DPS on the final boss. Likewise, 15-20k is reasonable for a fair number of Vet dungeons. My IRL friends do about that much, and we did many Vets, but really struggled on the vet DLCs. The point of raising the floor is to make harder content more accessible. Lots of players now can run random normals. Less players feel comfortable running random Vets. Raising the floor is only going to benefit players.
It sounds to me like you think the "floor" is higher than I do. Is that so?
As for the DPS caps, again, I point out that those aren't fun for players who can do more than than DPS with the skills, gear, and gameplay mechanics the Devs designed. I suppose this makes sense to you if you think it's an "exploit" to go over the secret magic number the Devs intended to be the max DPS for an encounter. To me, it looks like making the game less fun for players who can do better than the cap with the tools the Devs gave them.
Personally, I think DPS caps are a cheap way for the Devs to extend fights without having to really challenge players.Edited by VaranisArano on April 14, 2021 9:13PM10 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Septimus_Magna wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
There are plenty players with great gear that pull low dps so I dont think capping stats would help one bit.
In the beginning of the game there were soft and hard caps on most stats, average players would pull 500-600 dps but the top was pulling around 1200-1500 depending on the class. Its basically the same difference you still see today.
Its not like ESO has very complicated rotations, its usually a couple ground AOEs, a couple DOT/buffs and a spammable. Literally every magicka class can use blockade + orb and a spammable to deal more than 20k dps. There's just not enough incentive for players to learn these things.
Well if ZOS has created dungeons and boss fights where 100K DPS allows for all mechanics and everything as intended but at 110K DPS mechanics get broken and skipped (And they do NOT want that as they say) they could simple add a CAP on DPS for that fight. Meaning the group could do 100K damage per second but anything above that would just be lost. This way they could make all fights within the bounds that they intended and it wouldn't matter what players did (ie eliminate the exploit).
In addition to making each boss fight more challenging and engaging, it would eliminate the need for people to think DPS is the be all end all and forcing everyone else to play the game in a way that isn't fun at all and is more like a bad job. People could actually have fun playing a game, what a concept.
A. You keep saying that word: exploit. There is no exploit involved in getting high DPS. Those players are using their skills and particularly their light attack weaving exactly as ZOS now intends.
B. I played ESO back when there was a cap on DPS. It worked like this: while leveling, there was a artificial miss chance that prevented me from hitting enemies too far above my level. My Stam Sorc could handle those enemies just fine, but ZOS didn't want me getting too far of what ZOS thought I could handle. And so the miss chance kicked in, and all of a sudden I couldn't fight because I was missing all the time. I had to walk away and grind on lower level enemies for a while.
It wasn't fun. It was frustrating. I could fight at that level. I wanted to fight at that level. The only thing stopping me was ZOS.
And that's what DPS caps do to players. Now, it might feel great to look at it from a perspective that says "Well, the cap is 20k DPS for this dungeon, so no one will ever pressure me to do 30k for a little faster run, hurray!" But from the perspective of someone who can do more than 20k DPS, it feels like an artifical limit where they are held back not by their own skill but purely by ZOS. That's not fun. It's frustrating for those players.
You talk about DPS as not being the be-all, end-all and not forcing players to play the game in a way that isn't fun.
A. This ignores that the "floor" is sitting at around 5k DPS. Most of my normal dungeon DPS do just fine with somewhere between 7-15k DPS. Sometimes it's a long dungeon, but we usually always clear. With only 15k DPS, you can clear the easy vet dungeons. At 20k to 30k, you're going to be pretty average for a normal trial or vet dungeon. How low do you want your DPS cap to sit so that we're not forcing players to play the game "like a bad job" in order to do stuff like vet dungeons or basic trials and arenas?
As a tank main, I'd love to see "the floor" go up so most players doing 10-15k DPS in normal dungeons. That's not going to break mechanics, its really not. If the floor went up to most players doing 15-20k DPS, I think we'd see that vet dungeons become much more accessible to more players, and that's a good thing! Again, that's not going to break mechanics. It's going to make more players capable of doing the mechanics in the first place!
B. Have you considered that artifical DPS caps would in fact make end game content less fun for some players, in a similar way that you say feeling pressured to hit certain DPS parses makes end game content less fun for other players?
ZOS has already stated that there is a problem with people doing so much DPS that they are bypassing mechanics (which is textbook definition of exploit but let's forget about that, call it skill if you want).
The team that creates boss fights has a specific level of DPS at the low end to beat a boss and at the high end NOT TO BYPASS Mechanics. They know what that is supposed to be, call it artificial, but the fact is this can not be unlimited. So they need to be able to help people do enough to get through which they already did, I did 500 random dailies in the past 3 months and had NO PROBLEM getting through all of it (as tank, even as healer it was harder at times but easy) It is a myth that normal players are as bad as people like you keep saying.
And ZOS has toned down by a great extent MoS, Sclclr, MHK, etc, essentially every dungeon I used to think was hard has had many mechanics and almost all 1 shots reduced. Next they will be giving everyone a 20+K DPS companion bot which will permanently solve this issue, even for vet.
The only problem I see now is the extreme power creep that needs to be addressed. And I am not talking about tweaking little things here and there and hoping it all works out. I am literally saying that each boss should have a DPS shield which allows DPS at the maximum level to NOT bypass mechanics but just doesn't damage the bosses faster than that. As I said if 110K DPS will allow someone to bypass mech, but 100K won't, let 100K happen then block 10K per second. It is actually very simple and hurts no one except people who are 'exploiting' high DPS to bypass intended mechanics. Which they will never stop doing on their own and seem dead set on trying to make everyone else do that same thing they are doing.
To be honest I don't care what actually happens I will have fun however I want. It is just a bit annoying when a tiny group of people keep trying to tell everyone else what to do with their fun time.
Periodically ZOS adjusts dungeons, especially on vet. This isn't anything new. They also added damage in some of those dungeons that you listed. In MHK for example, damage was added to some of the mobs. Many of the adjustments were in the arcs that the wolves and dire wolves had. The damage from the stranglers in MHK was increased as was the damage from one of the wolves.
I can assure you that the mechanics in all of those dungeons that you mentioned, that are actual one-shots, are still there, on vet. Zaan's beam will still kill you if not blocked or otherwise mitigated. The peryite breath is still a one-shot. Ogre's auras, same. If you do not block the lurchers in vMoS you will still die. If you are pinned and a team mate does not synergize, you will still die.
They identify choke points and adjust them. If and when they find a mechanics that has a relatively high rate of failure, they adjust it. It's usually more than a year after the dungeon has been out before they start making adjustments like that.
Prior to this iteration of adjustments they removed the attronarchs from the island in BRF and nerfed the Planar Inhibitor in WGT, and others that I have forgotten. It doesn't signify anything, its business as usual.
They are giving everyone companions, if they choose. Will those displace players or add to the total number of players in a group? I find it far more likely that they will displace players. If that is the case, it isn't going to add 20k DPS to every player using them in veteran content.
I believe that they do see skipping mechanics, in some cases, as a problem, but probably not for the same reasons that you do. One of the issues that this creates is a scenario where its more advantageous to bring a 3rd DD instead of a healer. I genuinely believe that ZOS doesn't want that, but then we get the Ring of the Pale Order. Other fights, like Mylene or even Vykosa, I feel like they left a way for groups to do just that if they wanted, but at a much higher risk. If you miss your opportunity on a burn on Mylene, its most likely a wipe. She will spawn so many adds that it becomes extremely difficult to recover from. Same with Vykosa.
If you compare that to SCP, skipping the peryite breath, Mylene takes much more DPS and has consequences. There are none in SCP if you fail to burn her fast enough. Its the exact same fight.
In vFL there is an achievement for destroying no more than one animus crystal prior to the reanimation during that fight. This encourages burning the boss to push to that point and skipping that mechanic.
In short, I don't think that its quite that black and white, but I do think that they want a bit of balance.
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think some of you guys are getting lost way out in the weeds here with respect to the original discussion. The floor need to be raised so that more content is accessible to more players. The devs want people playing more content and getting cool rewards for it because that sells chapters and DLC. Things that are literally impossible for a vast majority of players to accomplish is no way to showcase some of the coolest fights and stories in the game. Winning those battles gives people a sense of accomplishment.
At the highest end of the spectrum you have your crazy stupid high hard hitters were no amount of nerfs/buffs is really going to change anything. The know mechanics well enough to beat a dungeon or trial with 60K or 100K DPS.
The only players that get punished here are the people in the middle pushing closer to that upper tier where a little hard work and grinding may get them over the hump. Cutting 25% off the top is nothing, but cut 25% off the middle and we begin to have problems.
I say stop the nerfs from here on out and only adjust the baseline numbers to bring the bottom up to a better place. Once you have that design the game going forward differently to account for mechs that offer a challenge relative to each of the tiers. Faster damage, more adds or harder hitting mechs. Slower damage, less punishing mechs but more of them. Something to that affect.
Let’s not redesign the game for the top 2% but let’s improve it for the bottom 20%4 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nothing can be done to help the floor because the floor simply doesn't care.
Cool skin, personality, emote, etc where did you get it? The silver skin from vAS, not a chance random casual player. Beast personality, not likely. We could get you the werewolf behemoth emote though if you just keep up and promise not to die 100 times.
Simpler stuff isn’t even accessible to them like amber plasm or even the skin you get for completing castle thorn or the cauldron. Even some monster sets are out of their reach like Zaan or Maarselok. The bottom tiers of players will never get the body markings from Unhallowed grave and they do look fantastic.
They locked some really cool collectibles behind some tough content. Now of course they made paid versions in the crown store but that’s a whole other issue for a whole other thread. Point is I wouldn’t mind carrying some lower tier players to get all these cool toys if I didn’t have to carry as much of the weight. Would prefer to have fun playing together instead of the current iteration which is a grind fest even for great players.4 -
IonicKai✭✭✭✭High damage is not an exploit and skipping mechanics is a gamble. It's one that should be rewarded if a player is capable. Honestly Cloudrest is probably the best example of how to balance mechanics in a fight. Sure you can technically skip portal completely if you burn perfectly with outstanding execution from 12 players but realistically you could also clear vcr+3 with pretty low dps (you just have to be really good at mechanics).
The issue we see in ESO most of the time is that players that lack dps also tend to lack knowledge and therefore won't be able to execute on mechanics either. This is were better tutorials could help. Giving clearer explainations of mechanics and visual queues would allow people to practice that. Giving better ways to learn how to do more damage (eg rotation/stat building basics) would allow the floor to be raised so long as players could easily find those resources in game. It's a ton of work on devs especially if they follow my earlier suggestion of a difficulty in-between normal and vet but it would do wonders in raising the floor.7 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
As a new player, which means I understand I may be missing something, I have noticed from looking at builds and such that weaving a light attack is an important means to getting good DPS and that the light attack is weighted, so it does more damage. Using an addon to help me work in my rotation, I have found the game's definition of a light attack is extremely narrow based on the feedback I have received from add-ons.
If this is correct, then it would seem that means it is by design that only those players who spend considerable time to refine their rotation to near perfection will do well in that arena. So I find it hard to believe that Zenimax is actually trying to raise the floor since logic would suggest this basic mouse attack be scaled better with the length of time it is activated. This would make this attack more friendly to the entire player base instead of requiring such precise gameplay.
If I am missing something here, then oops.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
As a new player, which means I understand I may be missing something, I have noticed from looking at builds and such that weaving a light attack is an important means to getting good DPS and that the light attack is weighted, so it does more damage. Using an addon to help me work in my rotation, I have found the game's definition of a light attack is extremely narrow based on the feedback I have received from add-ons.
If this is correct, then it would seem that means it is by design that only those players who spend considerable time to refine their rotation to near perfection will do well in that arena. So I find it hard to believe that Zenimax is actually trying to raise the floor since logic would suggest this basic mouse attack be scaled better with the length of time it is activated. This would make this attack more friendly to the entire player base instead of requiring such precise gameplay.
If I am missing something here, then oops.
The thing is that global cool down actually limits DPS. I can press the buttons a lot faster than the game will allow so I find I actually need to slow down rather than speed up. This is true of many of the DPS I have trained in my own guilds. Getting whipped up into a frenetic pace causes more issues and a greater DPS loss than taking your time and actually weaving your skills properly. Better to slow down and have all the skills actually land than go too fast and. It have them cast at all. It is a delicate dance, one that new players should definitely learn.
I happen to be on console so there are no add ons to help. Only an actual metronome when I practice. Thankfully I’ve been a musician all my life so tempo just comes naturally. I get my guild mates to parse to music to keep it from getting boring for them. I find songs around 110bpm and have them alternate LA and skill to the beat it works for more skills with the exception of ele weapon and occasionally blastbones with its weird delay.
The extra weapon and spell damage plus the new armor passives especially for light armor with the extra penetration favours the button masher because it more dps. However the top end got nerfed right in the cp and crit department. It’s a fair trade to be honest. Now if those low tier players learn the timing they will climb the ranks faster for sure and that is a good thing.3 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »As for the DPS caps, again, I point out that those aren't fun for players who can do more than than DPS with the skills, gear, and gameplay mechanics the Devs designed. I suppose this makes sense to you if you think it's an "exploit" to go over the secret magic number the Devs intended to be the max DPS for an encounter. To me, it looks like making the game less fun for players who can do better than the cap with the tools the Devs gave them.
Personally, I think DPS caps are a cheap way for the Devs to extend fights without having to really challenge players.
Bypassing intended game mechanics, is the definition of an exploit. If Devs create a dungeon or any boss fight specifically for tank, healer, and 2 20K DPS, and you take 4 50K DPS in there instead to blow through content and get rewards, etc. That is exploiting the system. You can call it whatever you want. You can also go out and murder someone, but if the police don't catch you or stop you doesn't mean you didn't kill someone.
People who want to play casual, have limited time, have life outside the game, have physical impediments or just don't want to do what they consider as cheating, should be able to post here with out being constantly called lazy, ignorant and/or unmotivated. If someone is so good and want challenge and only play Vet, why would they even care what people do on normal or overland. This sounds more like trying to control others is way out of control. Meanwhile no matter how easy 'casual' content is it has absolutely no effect on high DPS players at all.
But the flip side is not the case. For instance, instead of dialing back the DPS potential of the game and not letting it get so extreme, ZOS just keep adding more and more health to bosses, especially in vet content. Which has no effect on anyone at the so-called floor because they'll rarely do Vet. But for the large amount of middle level players like me who do Vet about 15-20% and normal the rest, it causes big problems. As example, whenever I do Vet with a group that has about 30K group DPS the increased boss health only makes it so mid level player have to do mechanics 2,3 or 4 times instead of once.
All this is a moot point probably because it looks like ZOS is implementing companions, which at a minimum should allow a mid level person like me and a casual player to team up with our companions and clear some Vet content. Or I am hoping for a companion team, ideally being able to play any of my other toons, I have 13 and best case would be if I took them all and did a trial.1 -
The_Old_Goat✭✭✭✭✭
✭So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.
I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf. But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
So far ZoS's attempts to address this have mostly failed. The usual approach is through nerfs to reduce top-end damage, though the recent FOA changes are a bit more interesting: most of the base stats go up, but the power of CP is somewhat reduced. This hasn't worked either. ZoS are now hinting at further nerfs to the CP system in future updates. That won't work either.
It won't work because the nerfs focus too much on the individual, not the group. This nerfs bad players pretty much as hard as good players, it lowers both the floor and the ceiling. That's what has happened with the CP nerfs, and although increasing the base stats was a good idea it was counteracted by the nerfs to crit - I don't think anyone is getting higher dps on the skeleton dummies this patch than last patch, which is what you would expect to see given these represent individual rather than group performance. The right solution as far as altering power goes is to further increase the individual's ability to do damage, but to reduce the impact of group buffs and debuffs.
However more is needed. There is almost zero in-game tuition on how to be effective at dealing damage beyond the tutorial that simply teaches you how to use light and heavy attacks, block and bash. There's nothing about weaving light attacks with a skill, nothing about buffing or layering damage over time skills to create a rotation, because at the time you do the tutorial you don't have any skills, or maybe just 1. It's a terribly ineffectual system for a game with reasonably complex combat.
There are fighters guilds and mages guilds scattered all over Tamriel. Most of these (fighers guilds anyway) are full of practice dummies and archery targets, but you can't use them, and none of the guild personnel offer any advice on fighting. All the infrastructure is there to make a decent set of follow-up repeatable tutorial quests to provide much more in-depth tuition about effective dpsing, i.e. layering skills and weaving light attacks. The rhythm and pace of combat is something a lot of players seem to struggle with. And if some of those target dummies were made into actual dummies, even if with slightly different stats from skeletons or atronachs, then there would be at least some option for players who don't have their own or choose not to join a guild to be able to use one in a guildhall.
There are armourers and weaponsmiths all over the place, too. It would be really good if there was an option to get advice from them on set items you carry. So you might ask one for advice on say a purple Julianos inferno staff and he might tell you it looks a pretty good item for a mage, but that it would do better if it could be improved with resins. Given a cuirass of leeching plate he might suggest that the set looks to offer a lot of protection for a tanky sort, but doesn't help your comrades at all. He might suggest certain sets being good to use against other players and so on.
And finally it would really help if console players could get more useful feedback from the dummies. I play on PS4 EU but I recently bought the basic PC version just for a look at the FOA changes on PTS ahead of launch, and parsing on the dummy on PTS with access to CMX and light attack helper was a revelation. That, despite all the lag and glitchiness of PTS, did more for understanding where I was causing myself problems in my dpsing than years of well meaning advice from fellow players on PS4, because of the detail available. I know there's a Sony issue with introducing add-ons on console and I wouldn't really want add-ons in the way PC has, but it would be very good indeed if the core game could be improved so that we get similar information to that available from CMX in a summary report from the dummies. It's really disappointing that in order to have access to basic self-improvement tools that ought to be a core feature of the game I have to buy a second copy on a different platform than the one I chose to play on, install the PTS so I can recreate my characters from PS4, and add on some third party plugins. The other aspect of practicing is expense. Buying stacks of spell draught isn't a problem for most endgame players because they already have ways of making gold, but it is a big deterrent to practising properly for new players with little gold. I've suggested it before but I think there should be a way of making training versions of potions and poisons that never get consumed but only work inside player housing (or areas around overland target dummies if these were ever to be introduced) and when not in combat with another player. That way you could do all the parsing you wanted without burning through gold, but you would still have to use consumable potions in actual combat with enemies. Perhaps you could add an animus stone to any potion / poison recipe at the alchemy station to make the training variant - that would chime with use of animus stones in target dummies and would improve the market for them to the benefit of master crafters doing their master writs, who would have another source of income making and selling training potions (or just animus stones).
I suspect the above would have a much bigger real impact on raising the floor than constant tweaking of gear stats, but of course it would take a bit more work on ZoS's part.
Do you have any links to these "hints" about nerfing dps and cp more from Zos?0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
As a new player, which means I understand I may be missing something, I have noticed from looking at builds and such that weaving a light attack is an important means to getting good DPS and that the light attack is weighted, so it does more damage. Using an addon to help me work in my rotation, I have found the game's definition of a light attack is extremely narrow based on the feedback I have received from add-ons.
If this is correct, then it would seem that means it is by design that only those players who spend considerable time to refine their rotation to near perfection will do well in that arena. So I find it hard to believe that Zenimax is actually trying to raise the floor since logic would suggest this basic mouse attack be scaled better with the length of time it is activated. This would make this attack more friendly to the entire player base instead of requiring such precise gameplay.
If I am missing something here, then oops.
The thing is that global cool down actually limits DPS. I can press the buttons a lot faster than the game will allow so I find I actually need to slow down rather than speed up. This is true of many of the DPS I have trained in my own guilds. Getting whipped up into a frenetic pace causes more issues and a greater DPS loss than taking your time and actually weaving your skills properly. Better to slow down and have all the skills actually land than go too fast and. It have them cast at all. It is a delicate dance, one that new players should definitely learn.
I happen to be on console so there are no add ons to help. Only an actual metronome when I practice. Thankfully I’ve been a musician all my life so tempo just comes naturally. I get my guild mates to parse to music to keep it from getting boring for them. I find songs around 110bpm and have them alternate LA and skill to the beat it works for more skills with the exception of ele weapon and occasionally blastbones with its weird delay.
The extra weapon and spell damage plus the new armor passives especially for light armor with the extra penetration favours the button masher because it more dps. However the top end got nerfed right in the cp and crit department. It’s a fair trade to be honest. Now if those low tier players learn the timing they will climb the ranks faster for sure and that is a good thing.
@Everest_Lionheart
The website I had been referred to, alcasthq, said they are not and that weaving basic attacks before a skill permits us to do more damage.
Thank you for clarifying things that the GCD applies to everything. I will try to figure out which guildmate recommended that site and tell them the information is incorrect.
I clearly misunderstood the post I quoted. Basic attacks are not on a GCD, as I had understood.
Yes, I understand that if every player spent the time to work on their DPS rotation as those at the top of then they would become great players and as such the floor would be raised. Even spending a portion of that time would lead to an increase in their DPS.
However, I probably did not make my point very clear. I was speaking to the extremely narrow definition the games gives to light attacks considering the heavy weight the game puts on light attacks which increased the complexity of a combat system that is already more complex than more MMORPGs.
Granted, I am not complaining about the combat system in ESO as I like it. I am merely pointing out the requirements for performing a LA outweigh the benefit, as well as noting a logical change. This is inline with the topic of this thread. A player that is pressing buttons in a frenetic manner is merely one that needs to learn some basic aspects of gameplay and probably start off a little slower.Edited by Amottica on April 15, 2021 4:30AM0 -
Jayroo✭✭✭✭Zos needs to realize no one loves oblivion/skyrim combat and to address high dps being associated with light/heavy attacking is clunky and awkward2
-
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reading a bunch of this and ignoring the "some people don't want to play that way" argument as pointless since people can not learn to light weave etc all they want.
the key issues are:
There is literally nothing in the game which holds your hand and explains how light weaving works and the effect that has on your dps. There should be some sort of tutorial when you hit level 50 so that as you become capable of doing vet dungeons you get some sort of tutorial on how the combat system works.
There are a bunch of addons on PC which are considered must have if you want to start improving your dps which should be merged into the base game as optional.
At the very least combat metrics needs to be added.
I'd also argue that action duration reminder or similar needs to be added and probably light attack helper.
Clearly ZoS is thinking along these lines with their advanced stats tab and they way they have improved the inventory system and crafting writs.
Ultimately the combat system in ESO comes down to doing stuff. People who can light weave smoothly can do more stuff than people who can't. Doing more things will do more dps. If I do 100 actions per minute and someone else does 50 actions per minute, there is no buff or nerf or balance change you can propose to classes or CP or sets where I'm not way more effective than the other person.1 -
Rkindaleft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think ZOS just needs to accept that 1% will blow through any content with enough practice. That SHOULD be perfectly fine, they're the top 1%, they play a lot, they theory craft, they hyper-optimize, they execute rotations to the best of their ability, etc. They do NOT represent the rest of the 99% of players in the game. Think of better ways to nerf things, because everytime you target that 1%, the ONLY people it actually affects are the 99%.
There are plenty of ways that ZOS can raise the floor. Provide everyone with a target dummy as a level up reward, (there are TONS of free houses, already) provide MEANINGFUL tutorials, (the game DOES NOT teach you how to play), provide resources on building a character properly, (so people don't have to use outside sources just to be able to KNOW), and provide more beneficial notes in places like quests or level up tips.
The casual playerbase can choose to ignore or use this information, but the biggest reason that the gap between the floor and the ceiling exists is the bad design that ZOS has created. Not trying to throw shade here, but the game does not teach you how to play. The ones who are middle-tier or top-tier received their information only through outside research, and zero from anything in the game.Runeblades enjoyer https://youtube.com/@rkindaleftI only DD in wizard elf game cuz I like seeing big number
Tick Tock Tormentor | Saintly Savior | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Kyne's Wrath | Planesbreaker | Swashbuckler Supreme | Mindmender | Unstoppable7 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭Nchuleftingth wrote: »I think ZOS just needs to accept that 1% will blow through any content with enough practice. That SHOULD be perfectly fine, they're the top 1%, they play a lot, they theory craft, they hyper-optimize, they execute rotations to the best of their ability, etc. They do NOT represent the rest of the 99% of players in the game. Think of better ways to nerf things, because everytime you target that 1%, the ONLY people it actually affects are the 99%.
There are plenty of ways that ZOS can raise the floor. Provide everyone with a target dummy as a level up reward, (there are TONS of free houses, already) provide MEANINGFUL tutorials, (the game DOES NOT teach you how to play), provide resources on building a character properly, (so people don't have to use outside sources just to be able to KNOW), and provide more beneficial notes in places like quests or level up tips.
The casual playerbase can choose to ignore or use this information, but the biggest reason that the gap between the floor and the ceiling exists is the bad design that ZOS has created. Not trying to throw shade here, but the game does not teach you how to play. The ones who are middle-tier or top-tier received their information only through outside research, and zero from anything in the game.
I know exactly what is needed. But I'd rather deinstall the game than try to train rotations on 10 different chars. What mind numbing fun destroying activity.
And my impression is that I am far from alone in considering such a thing the last one wants to do after a long workday to unwind.
So any proposal in the direction of give dummies, tutorials totally miss the elephant in the room. Getting to perfect rotation sucks [snip]. And a lot of people aint gonna do it.
Only way to raise the floor without lifting ceiling even further is limit how much dps boost a perfect rotation gives compared to a bad one.
buffs and dots lasting longer would probably help a bit. Less time they can be falling off. But I see no way around lowering the metronome speed reqs as well.
Well. maybe boost LA and nerf all other damage. If LA in a perfect rotation is 75% of total damage. Fllor will be lifted as most probably would manage keep buffs up and metronome LA alone. But I think that would really damage how combat feels.
[Edited to remove inappropriate content]Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on April 15, 2021 12:52PMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nothing can be done to help the floor because the floor simply doesn't care.
Some people are happy with their low DPS. GenerallVaranisArano wrote: »As for the DPS caps, again, I point out that those aren't fun for players who can do more than than DPS with the skills, gear, and gameplay mechanics the Devs designed. I suppose this makes sense to you if you think it's an "exploit" to go over the secret magic number the Devs intended to be the max DPS for an encounter. To me, it looks like making the game less fun for players who can do better than the cap with the tools the Devs gave them.
Personally, I think DPS caps are a cheap way for the Devs to extend fights without having to really challenge players.
Bypassing intended game mechanics, is the definition of an exploit. If Devs create a dungeon or any boss fight specifically for tank, healer, and 2 20K DPS, and you take 4 50K DPS in there instead to blow through content and get rewards, etc. That is exploiting the system. You can call it whatever you want. You can also go out and murder someone, but if the police don't catch you or stop you doesn't mean you didn't kill someone.
People who want to play casual, have limited time, have life outside the game, have physical impediments or just don't want to do what they consider as cheating, should be able to post here with out being constantly called lazy, ignorant and/or unmotivated. If someone is so good and want challenge and only play Vet, why would they even care what people do on normal or overland. This sounds more like trying to control others is way out of control. Meanwhile no matter how easy 'casual' content is it has absolutely no effect on high DPS players at all.
But the flip side is not the case. For instance, instead of dialing back the DPS potential of the game and not letting it get so extreme, ZOS just keep adding more and more health to bosses, especially in vet content. Which has no effect on anyone at the so-called floor because they'll rarely do Vet. But for the large amount of middle level players like me who do Vet about 15-20% and normal the rest, it causes big problems. As example, whenever I do Vet with a group that has about 30K group DPS the increased boss health only makes it so mid level player have to do mechanics 2,3 or 4 times instead of once.
All this is a moot point probably because it looks like ZOS is implementing companions, which at a minimum should allow a mid level person like me and a casual player to team up with our companions and clear some Vet content. Or I am hoping for a companion team, ideally being able to play any of my other toons, I have 13 and best case would be if I took them all and did a trial.
Yeah, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on your definition of an exploit. I have never heard someone seriously suggest that bringing more than 50-60k group DPS to normal Fungal Grotto 1 is an exploit, but here we are.
And one point of raising the floor is that it would benefit "mid-level" players too. A group that's doing 30k DPS is on the middle to low end of Vet content, depending on which dungeon, IMO (my IRL friends are in that group, before you say I'm calling people lazy, ignorant, or unmotivated). Those are exactly the players who would benefit from raising the floor, and would therefore be able to handle those challenges better.
Finally, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your opposition to the idea that we should raise the floor by providing better in-game resources so players who want to can learn to play effectively are as follows:
- casual players may not want to learn
- players may have limited time and thus don't learn
- players who physically can't may not be able to learn
- players who wrongfully consider light attack weaving to be an exploit will refuse to learn
- since all players are now given the in-game means to learn, all groups above will be called lazy, ignorant, and unmotivated because they haven't used the new in-gsme resources.
That's your justification for depriving the players who would want to use in-game tutorials and who would benefit from them of that opportunity?
I hate to say it, but your categories are even more disadvantaged by the current system. Casual players are a lot more likely to try a tutorial out if it's in the game than if they have to go search it out on youtube or other sites. The same is true for players with limited time. And if ZOS actually makes a tutorial for players that includes light attack weaving, maybe people will finally get it through their heads that it's not an exploit.
As for the people who are physically unable, I strongly suspect that they'd benefit too, as forcing ZOS to provide an in-game tutorials for taxing stuff like light attack weaving means that ZOS has to grapple with how accessible this mechanic really is (or isn't) to all their players.
This isn't directed at you specifically. I'm a little disappointed to see so much opposition coming from a direction that seems to be "I don't want to learn to play better, so no one should get the in-game opportunity to learn to play better."
I'm not sure why. Is this a fear that if everyone else learns to play better, those who don't want to will be left behind? That those who don't will feel forced to learn to play better too, or to quit? That if they don't, they'll be castigated for refusing to use the in-game lessons provided?
I can sort of understand those worries, but it still seems to me to be a selfish reason for arguing against in-game tutorials to teach players who want to learn how to play the game more effectively.6 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they want to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, that's great IMO, but they need to rethink how they are going about doing it. If that is your goal, you need to normalize combat so that there is very little difference between those who can do animation cancelling/flawless weaving and those who cannot. That will take out any variables that are directly attributable to the player's APM rates, and will make it so that your DPS is more about build, order of rotation, ability to maintain buffs, and sustain than it will be about things that may be out of a player's control.
Doing this will certainly bring the DPS ceiling and the floor closer together. It also makes it easier for players to improve because with more emphasis being on your build, players can do a little research, see what other players are doing successfully, and incorporate those changes into their own build.4 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nchuleftingth wrote: »I think ZOS just needs to accept that 1% will blow through any content with enough practice. That SHOULD be perfectly fine, they're the top 1%, they play a lot, they theory craft, they hyper-optimize, they execute rotations to the best of their ability, etc. They do NOT represent the rest of the 99% of players in the game. Think of better ways to nerf things, because everytime you target that 1%, the ONLY people it actually affects are the 99%.
There are plenty of ways that ZOS can raise the floor. Provide everyone with a target dummy as a level up reward, (there are TONS of free houses, already) provide MEANINGFUL tutorials, (the game DOES NOT teach you how to play), provide resources on building a character properly, (so people don't have to use outside sources just to be able to KNOW), and provide more beneficial notes in places like quests or level up tips.
The casual playerbase can choose to ignore or use this information, but the biggest reason that the gap between the floor and the ceiling exists is the bad design that ZOS has created. Not trying to throw shade here, but the game does not teach you how to play. The ones who are middle-tier or top-tier received their information only through outside research, and zero from anything in the game.
^This, right here. The ceiling should be as high as players will take it. Only 1% of players will ever get that high in PVE and PVP. There will ALWAYS be a 1% in everything. That's just how humans function, some of us excel at different things and we are just naturally good at them. NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB, etc....those are all the best of the best of the best. Not everyone is going to be the best of the best. Some of us will just be average, others will be below average.
You can't have 20 1st place winners, someone has to be 2nd, someone has to be 3rd, and 4th, etc. I think trying to nerf the 1% just so their performance is closer to the 99% is a bad idea. It was a bad idea back in my SWG days, it was a bad idea when I jumped on WoW during the vanilla days, and it's a bad idea now.
ESO has a mechanical action based combat system. The whole point of it is to put half of the focus on how well a player moves their character around and aims, and only half of the focus is on traditional MMO systems like buffs, casting spells, etc. Removing focus on mechanical movement and trying to put more into the passive MMO aspects of ESO takes away the thing that separates ESO from the rest of the 1000 other MMORPG's.
It feels like some players want to nerf people better than them, so they are close to equal instead of learning the mechanics of combat and raising their skill level to match those who are better than them.10 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I was with you at the beginning..So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.
Until I saw that it was an Us
vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.
(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)
See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.
They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.
My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.
For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.
I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!
But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.
Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.
ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.
As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.
If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.
The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".
So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.
Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.Edited by robertthebard on April 15, 2021 3:28PM4 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭robertthebard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I was with you at the beginning..So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.
Until I saw that it was an Us
vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.
(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)
See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.
They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.
My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.
For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.
I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!
But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.
Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.
ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.
As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.
If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.
The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".
So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.
Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.
Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.
The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.
The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.3 -
Animus-ESO✭✭✭✭✭Harder pve content breeds better players. Until they make pve even remotely challenging instead of the weenie hut jr cake walk it is now, none of the player base is going to improve. Why would they learn to dodge or block mechanics if there is no risk of getting punished for ignoring it.
Increase the difficulty of over land and story missions and watch how quickly the average player will improve and adapt. Not only will the game community band together and actually help each other but the story will actually feel like it has meaning again since you can't 3 tap molog baal making the whole story line in the game feel like a joke.Dude Where's My Guar?9 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Animus-ESO wrote: »Harder pve content breeds better players. Until they make pve even remotely challenging instead of the weenie hut jr cake walk it is now, none of the player base is going to improve. Why would they learn to dodge or block mechanics if there is no risk of getting punished for ignoring it.
Increase the difficulty of over land and story missions and watch how quickly the average player will improve and adapt. Not only will the game community band together and actually help each other but the story will actually feel like it has meaning again since you can't 3 tap molog baal making the whole story line in the game feel like a joke.
Where's my rolled up newspaper j/k I don't see the relevance in punishing players by making it hard. I mean if people liked being punished for playing there would still be millions of us playing EQ. Or similar games that caused you to delevel if you died, or retrieve your body or how about having to study your magic book before you could use spells again. Yes MMOs have come a long way from the torture it use to be. I see no reason why any sane company would punish people in their game and expect to keep people playing it.Edited by Alurria on April 15, 2021 4:31PM3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I was with you at the beginning..So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.
Until I saw that it was an Us
vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.
(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)
See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.
They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.
My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.
For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.
I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!
But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.
Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.
ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.
As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.
If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.
The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".
So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.
Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.
There's absolutely no problem with being mediocre if you don't care about doing content where it matters.
I'm not sure why you assume that adding the in-game opportunity for players to learn how to play more effectively if they want to means that you, who doesn't, would be forced to attend basic training.
I'd be fine with tutorials at the Undaunted Camp. There you go, no player who never wants to do a dungeon need worry.
Now, the people you should worry about who aren't happy with the DPS floor are ZOS. They want to raise the floor, and so far their every attempt has proven themselves to be really good at nerf-hammering the floor downward instead.5 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.
This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.
Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."
It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.
Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO
Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.
But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).
That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.
A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.
One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.
Light Attack Weaving isn't an exploit.
Oh, I know, people like to complain that the Devs didn't originally intend for it to be a major part of the combat system from the beginning, but by those lights we've got a ton of "exploits" running around that the Devs didn't intend. Like Champion Points.
So maybe it's time to comes to terms with the reason that Light Attack Weaving gives so much extra DPS is that the Devs fully intended to buff Light attack damage with Summerset, the patch after ZOS introduced the Level Up Advisor with its tip about light attack weaving. Or that Relequen set, which relies on light attack weaving to build stacks. This reliance on Light Attack Weaving was intended, or at least, easy for the Devs to predict based on their own design decisions.
Let's not go calling "exploit!" where there is none.
Light attack weaving was an unintended bug that got leaned into. At some point, the powers that be decided it was unfixable/too expensive/ insert reason here and just decided to make use of it. Hence why it took until summerset for a set to be developed for it.
Lets not kid ourselves, the balancing and bugfixing here isn't know for subtly, precision or accuracy. Decreasing the impact of LA weaving would be a good thing IMO, as long as the adjustments aren't made with the delicacy of a sledgehammer wielding teenager in the midst of a roidrage attack.2 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Nchuleftingth wrote: »I think ZOS just needs to accept that 1% will blow through any content with enough practice. That SHOULD be perfectly fine, they're the top 1%, they play a lot, they theory craft, they hyper-optimize, they execute rotations to the best of their ability, etc. They do NOT represent the rest of the 99% of players in the game. Think of better ways to nerf things, because everytime you target that 1%, the ONLY people it actually affects are the 99%.
There are plenty of ways that ZOS can raise the floor. Provide everyone with a target dummy as a level up reward, (there are TONS of free houses, already) provide MEANINGFUL tutorials, (the game DOES NOT teach you how to play), provide resources on building a character properly, (so people don't have to use outside sources just to be able to KNOW), and provide more beneficial notes in places like quests or level up tips.
The casual playerbase can choose to ignore or use this information, but the biggest reason that the gap between the floor and the ceiling exists is the bad design that ZOS has created. Not trying to throw shade here, but the game does not teach you how to play. The ones who are middle-tier or top-tier received their information only through outside research, and zero from anything in the game.
I'd like to tack on a thought to this. In addition to the better tutorials (which I agree are needed) there should be some kind of feedback from the game. Its all well and good if the information is presented, but the player also needs to know if they are executing the skill/maneuver they are attempting.
Fictional Bob (FB) is banging away at a target dummy. FB thinks he is layering dots and timing everything to perfection. In reality, FB is missing the mark more often than not and just doesn't know it.
And no, addons are not the answer. A-consoles B- Zos should NOT be relying on their customers to fix issues for them.3 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I was with you at the beginning..So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.
Until I saw that it was an Us
vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.
(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)
See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.
They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.
My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.
For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.
I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!
But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.
Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.
ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.
As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.
If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.
The problem, of course, is that some players will never set foot in a dungeon at all. I'd raise my hand, but at one time, I was running dungeons, with the guild I was in. But now? I don't care about them one way or the other. I don't break my neck trying to run Public Dungeons for the completion, I may just go in for any associated lore books or skyshards, and beyond that, they could lock the door, and I wouldn't care. They could put both in a "lobby" at the entrance, and I'd be just fine. Of course, I can still get them, regardless, but dungeons aren't on my radar for things I "must do".
So why would I want to be "mediocre", when I can just be doing what I do? Why would I want to go through what amounts to basic training, when I'm not planning to join the military? The answer is, I wouldn't, and I won't. Well, I might, accidentally. Because as someone that used to do Progression Raiding across multiple MMOs, it's second nature, or force of habit. But the "I queued for a Normal Dungeon, and everyone in it wasn't Vet ready" type of complaints that are fairly common? Who cares? If random groups are 'wasting one's time", form a group of players that won't be and hit the random queue.
Edit: spelling is hard, need more coffee.
Why would that be a problem? If I understand their point, they are asking for an avenue to learn and progress for those who want to. For those who do not, fine. No big deal.
The issue isn't necessarily that the information isn't there. It is. There are many guides on this stuff. Its that there isn't anything in the game to tell a player that are or are not ready for any given piece of content aside from the level based requirements. To put that into perspective, they're the same for WGT and LoM. So when a player hits 300CP they can get a vet DLC in their daily random. They can now get Stone Garden, Lair of Marselok, Moon Hunter Keep, or something easier like WGT, RoM, or CoS. They just spent 50 levels and 300 CP through what is relatively easy content and now in content where if you miss an interrupt, block, or dodge, someone will probably die. Up to that point they had no reason to ever question whether or not they were ready, and if they knew, they were told by a friend or guild mate.
The entire scope of this is for people who want to progress.
See this post for why I disagree. It's not "for people that want it", it's "nobody outside of my little sphere plays the game right, and they need to learn".2