Goregrinder wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Those who spend time developing a skill should always be rewarded by being better at that skill than someone who does not take the same time to develop it. Lowering the skill ceiling basically tells us that they don't want people to spend time getting good...that a fresh CP 160 toon will have the same level of success as someone who has played since beta.

You can 'lower the ceiling' without lowering the skill ceiling. Reducing the results you get from Absolute BIS Gear & Skill, isn't the same as removing the skill that's needed to get those numbers. If your perfect rotation & build gets you twice the DPS needed to clear the highest content, rather than 4x the DPS needed, you still needed your perfect build, rotation, and skill to get there, and a bad player still won't match it.


(When the range of DPS between bad players & top players gets too wide, it causes problems with even being able to design & balance new content. That can be seen in games like Star Trek Online, where low-end players might make 10k DPS, and the best players in the "DPS League" are pushing 500k.)

You're saying you can lower the skill ceiling without lowering the skill ceiling? Or what other ceiling is there besides the skill ceiling?

DPS =/= Skill

If your Perfect Skill (build, gear, rotation, timing, positioning, etc) gets you 100k DPS.

And they change the numbers so that your Perfect Skill gets you 50k DPS.

The ceiling has been lowered (50K is smaller than 100K), but the skill required was still the same.


Of course, figuring out how to reduce the numbers gained from all those perfect buffs/synergies/combos/etc without reducing what happens from basic skill, is the challenge.

it's not just game's fault that it doesn't teach people to do damage. People just slot whatever spells they like and they use them, with random items found equipped or not. But they can't sustain, if spells are there and items are there, they don't see the sustain and don't understand it. People that i advice to go to the dummy to see their dps tell me things like 20k 25k and i'm like wow that's awesome, only later to find out they attack the dummy like crazy until they resources drop to zero, then stop and the dummy shows them their dps in chat. I tell them to actually kill the dummy from full to zero and then they see their real dps.

It's a combination of things, not the least of which is 'balance' that has been overtuned for quite some time.

Side note first: Tooltip values should approach the actual damage out. I realize buffs add in ways that are not immediately apparent on a tooltip, but when a 5-10k tooltip skill translates to 90k-100k in practice, it doesn't really allow combat and builds to be intuitive to a new player.

Second is the range of the floor to ceiling.

A high end, well geared, skilled player should absolutely out damage an average player or a 'casual.' Should they hit for 2x, 3x, in some cases 10x the low end? Seems a bit extreme and unnecessary.

There is a cap you'll reach as a solo parse, and that's going to be based on whatever BiS and current skills, race, patch, and class allows.

Add buffs from another person, that value should go up by a certain factor. Call it 10%?

Add buffs from a 4 man scenario (20%), it should go up a bit more, hitting the cap at 12 man organized content with maximum buffs.

A +30% output from 12 man would be more than enough, and content could be balanced around it. The skill would still be required, the difference would still be there. They could balance content accordingly.

The percentage difference between the average 'floor' to the average 'ceiling' is higher than necessary. When numbers have gotten so high in comparison to mechanics that they are almost completely avoidable, it's a balance issue.

If you were bypassing something with clever gameplay, it would be different. Bypassing because they devs have allowed the high end to get out of control relative to what the content requires is a failure on their end, and one they apparently show no concern in fixing.

@Kiralyn2000 has the right idea.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's a combination of things, not the least of which is 'balance' that has been overtuned for quite some time.

Side note first: Tooltip values should approach the actual damage out. I realize buffs add in ways that are not immediately apparent on a tooltip, but when a 5-10k tooltip skill translates to 90k-100k in practice, it doesn't really allow combat and builds to be intuitive to a new player.

Second is the range of the floor to ceiling.

A high end, well geared, skilled player should absolutely out damage an average player or a 'casual.' Should they hit for 2x, 3x, in some cases 10x the low end? Seems a bit extreme and unnecessary.

There is a cap you'll reach as a solo parse, and that's going to be based on whatever BiS and current skills, race, patch, and class allows.

Add buffs from another person, that value should go up by a certain factor. Call it 10%?

Add buffs from a 4 man scenario (20%), it should go up a bit more, hitting the cap at 12 man organized content with maximum buffs.

A +30% output from 12 man would be more than enough, and content could be balanced around it. The skill would still be required, the difference would still be there. They could balance content accordingly.

The percentage difference between the average 'floor' to the average 'ceiling' is higher than necessary. When numbers have gotten so high in comparison to mechanics that they are almost completely avoidable, it's a balance issue.

If you were bypassing something with clever gameplay, it would be different. Bypassing because they devs have allowed the high end to get out of control relative to what the content requires is a failure on their end, and one they apparently show no concern in fixing.

@Kiralyn2000 has the right idea.

I think if they started regulating the buffs, especially in 4 person content, they're going in a direction that would be harmful to healers.

There's already a school of thought that deems healers as unnecessary because their buffs do not exceed the output of a 3rd DPS. I play the content with a healer and I do not find it to be the case, but if they decreased buffs, or capped them, assuming Im understanding this correctly, they would have to change a lot to make sure they werent completely extinct in 4 person content.

The issue of course, how do you make Rotation less impactful without gutting combat.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568853/light-attacks-and-abilities-damage/p1

One side of this discussion that’s rarely talked about. What would happen if the 80% of the player base (the “casuals”) suddenly did 2x damage due to raising the floor? The overland content, normal dungeons, public dungeons etc would suddenly become a breeze. I think that’d be the worst thing for the game.

Blue_Radium wrote: »

The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.

This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.

Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."

It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.

Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO

Stevie6 wrote: »

Base stat boost didn’t help at all and casual still die faster than ever. The old cp tree worked. All the devs had to do was uncap it to the max. 2.0 nerfed the casual player. I’ve responded to similar threads on this subject and I’ll type it here as well. If the devs are seriously considering raising the floor, then they have to go back to pre Morrowind Damage, buffs, shields, ect. It worked. Players cried about blah blah is too powerful. So what. I could care less. Put damage back into skills. Make sure everyone can do at least 20 to 30k dps thru skills alone. La and hvy attacks are just extra. And if you weave and get higher damage, good for you. If the ceiling explodes, great. It doesn’t bother me if someone is doing 100 to 200k dps just as long as the bottom player is brought up to a reasonable lvl in harder content.

As for PvP, just nerf everything there and leave pve alone. The only content that should be left to the elite player is HM Vet content. Before anybody aks..git gud is out. Practicing on a dummy doesn’t work for me and twitch mouse skills hurts my hand. I would love to do harder content but don’t. A group of nice guild mates carried me thru SCP vet today. I’m very greatful but I really suck at dps and died a lot. I did see the mechanics but I couldn’t respond fast enough to them. Been at it since 2017 and just downhill in dps ever since. Too many nerfs has killed the fun me.

Preach! Who literally cares if far less than 1% of players, who have worked their butts off, can skip a few mechs in some content???? I never understood the crying about power creep when that sort of top tier dps is so rare that it doesn't even matter. Every time zos panic nerfs those groups, everyone else gets shoved down to the bottom. The top still stays at the top... It's been a pattern now for literal years.

Merforum wrote: »

nihoumab14_ESO wrote: »

Blue_Radium wrote: »

The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.

This so much. I love everything about this game aside from light attack weaving. Weaving, while doable, just isn't comfortable. It looks janky as hell.

Saying people should be light attack weaving is all fine and dandy, but the truth is nobody enjoys weaving. I've never heard someone say they like weaving. It's always "you have to do it for good damage" or "you'll get used to it."

It's like was said, the majority who know of light attack weaving don't do it. I know i certainly don't always do it, because it isn't fun, it takes me out of the game when i do it.

Are there games with combos in them like that? Yes, but it isn't after every single ability. You don't have to hit the same button between every other button press to do things better in any other game i can think of. There's a difference between mechanical skill from a game like Overwatch versus hitting left click right before every skill in ESO

Yes you nailed it. The reason why LA EXPLOIT gives so much extra Damage Per Second is because it is unintended. Crit has also always been way too high, these are overtuned aspects of the game that should never have existed. As you say, mashing an extra button in between each ability, is very annoying to do and IMO not 'skillful' to the extent people keep telling us it is.

But realistically, the 'floor' isn't that bad, I have been doing random daily dungeon on 6 toons every day for a few months and so for 500 runs have been able to complete every dungeon even DLC with practically NO deaths. Except when some PVP dude runs ahead of me as tank and keeps doing it, until I let a boss of 2 just kill him when I don't taunt (as xynode says you pull him you tank him).

That being said the only problem now is actually the 'ceiling' is way over tuned and needs to be toned way down. There are several options; quickest/easiest would be to CAP the amount of DPS any given boss can sustain. For instance, if all mechanics function properly when group does 50K DPS but doing 60K DPS will skip mechanics, then just cap the damage that boss can receive at 50K DPS, meaning in each second you can only do 50K damage anything above that is lost. Problem solved.

A second method, which might be a little more complex (but could fix PVP also) is to CAP most settings, kind of like resistance. For instance, Stam/Mag/Hlth could be capped at 40K, wpm/spl dmg capped at 4K, crit chnc/cmg 50% cap, etc. With either method the CAPs could be adjusted based on the content/area, overland, normal/vet dungeon/trial, PVP, just changing the caps per environment would control power creep and allow all content to remain challenging.

One thing is for sure the piecemeal changes and trying to tweak many sets, passives, cps, skills, etc will NEVER work because that is wackaMole, a never ending cycle of buffs and nerfs that never fixes the problem of stacking into 1 thing until it is over powered. As an example, ZOS created 'mother sorrow' as a light armor to use as a mag crit set, then creates Medusa as a heavy set thinking no one will use both sets together but that is exactly what they do. Instead of just nerfing all those sets and make them useless, if they just cap Crit chance at 50% they are done, don't even have to change any sets, CP etc.

Light Attack Weaving isn't an exploit.

Oh, I know, people like to complain that the Devs didn't originally intend for it to be a major part of the combat system from the beginning, but by those lights we've got a ton of "exploits" running around that the Devs didn't intend. Like Champion Points.

So maybe it's time to comes to terms with the reason that Light Attack Weaving gives so much extra DPS is that the Devs fully intended to buff Light attack damage with Summerset, the patch after ZOS introduced the Level Up Advisor with its tip about light attack weaving. Or that Relequen set, which relies on light attack weaving to build stacks. This reliance on Light Attack Weaving was intended, or at least, easy for the Devs to predict based on their own design decisions.

Let's not go calling "exploit!" where there is none.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Those who spend time developing a skill should always be rewarded by being better at that skill than someone who does not take the same time to develop it. Lowering the skill ceiling basically tells us that they don't want people to spend time getting good...that a fresh CP 160 toon will have the same level of success as someone who has played since beta.

You can 'lower the ceiling' without lowering the skill ceiling. Reducing the results you get from Absolute BIS Gear & Skill, isn't the same as removing the skill that's needed to get those numbers. If your perfect rotation & build gets you twice the DPS needed to clear the highest content, rather than 4x the DPS needed, you still needed your perfect build, rotation, and skill to get there, and a bad player still won't match it.


(When the range of DPS between bad players & top players gets too wide, it causes problems with even being able to design & balance new content. That can be seen in games like Star Trek Online, where low-end players might make 10k DPS, and the best players in the "DPS League" are pushing 500k.)

You're saying you can lower the skill ceiling without lowering the skill ceiling? Or what other ceiling is there besides the skill ceiling?

DPS =/= Skill

If your Perfect Skill (build, gear, rotation, timing, positioning, etc) gets you 100k DPS.

And they change the numbers so that your Perfect Skill gets you 50k DPS.

The ceiling has been lowered (50K is smaller than 100K), but the skill required was still the same.


Of course, figuring out how to reduce the numbers gained from all those perfect buffs/synergies/combos/etc without reducing what happens from basic skill, is the challenge.

This makes absolutely no sense (or maybe I am just not understanding what you are saying). This game is a Skill game when it comes to DPS. Of the 5 things you mentioned, the first two arent skill based (perhaps they are knowledge based), and the last three are potentially skill based (not sure if there is much difference between timing and rotation). Rotation is certainly skill based and of the things you mentioned, it is the biggest piece of the pie (bigger than the other 4 put together).

If all you do is reduce damage by 50%, sure you could lower the elite DPS from 100k to 50k, but you would also shrink the those doing 10k down to 5k. From a percent standpoint, the gap hasnt changed. In that example, the gap is still 10x.

They only way to truly lower the gap between those at the bottom and those at the top is to make ROTATION less impactful. The other things are drops in the bucket. The issue of course, how do you make Rotation less impactful without gutting combat.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Add more situational buffs, bonus synergies, if you will.

These would still require reaction time and would allow bonus damage in the right context. Plenty of other games have figured out how to make 'skill checks' that require the player to interact without the need for memorization of a perfect rotation.

Witcher, God of War, Atlas, heck even Dead by Daylight all have skill check windows that require player presence at the time of the check - not possible to memorize the timing, key press required, etc to accomplish the check result. (Think Combat Metronome, but the red portion isn't always in the same place at the same time.) Slottable perks and now CP could be invested that would lessen this effect directly (making the window bigger, or the moving portion slower) for players that do not have the physical ability to hit that perfect rotation mark. It would still allow high end to be higher because someone would have to opt to slot one of those perks, missing out on another that a high end player would be able to maintain because of their personal ability.

Our characters are supposed to have skill levels the players cannot. I can't walk into a crowd of 10 people, pick a fight, and hold them all off indefinitely with my IRL tanking skills. This is what the in game bonuses are intended to help counter. Perks to improve or at least soften the effect of rotation timing would go a long way in that regard.

I'd also like to see the skill overwrite of LA's go away. There is zero need for the ability queue in regard to LA's. This alone would allow people to more successfully LA between skills regardless of ping rate and other factors to achieve that higher DPS. It would take nothing away from the high end, because a perfectly timed rotation (higher LA ratio, ~ .9) would still outperform a less perfectly performed rotation (.7, .8), but the ratio wouldn't suddenly drop to 40-60% because the game is designed to overwrite the LA's because of the queue.

The LA could be part of the skill check window, rewarding higher DPS with a perfectly timed response, slightly less DPS with a less than perfectly timed response, if some kind of actual feedback (other than "your LA didn't go off for some arbitrary reason") was built into the game.

There are ways to do this that still reward the young, skilled, fast reaction times without cutting out everyone else with higher ping, lesser rigs, age, medical conditions, etc, because the character skills and perks could help compensate for this while still providing that gap between beginner-mid-high-l33t.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

You got an insightful from me. I am so tired of people on several forums complaining about normal players who don't spend 80 hrs a week playing a game just so they can consider themselves elite. "Elite" players play with your guild and don't try to preach to the normal people or tell them how bad they are at a game they are playing to enjoy, not as a job.

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I feel like the whole "I'm happy with my low DPS" / "How dare someone suggest I should learn to play effectively when I'm happy with how I play" argument is missing a fundamental aspect of what's happening in ESO.

ZOS wants to raise the floor.

You may be perfectly happy to play with low DPS or ineffective rotations and light attack weaving, and that's okay! But ZOS is not happy with your low DPS and ZOS wants to raise the floor.

Here's the problem: ZOS is not good at raising the real floor comprised of players who don't know how to play effectively (or who won't, or the lesser number who physcially can't.) ZOS is very good at buffing the players who know how to play effectively, because ZOS assumes that players know how to play. And so ZOS continually manages to Raise the Ceiling/Lower the Floor because their changes benefit players who know how to play effectively. Players who don't (or who won't or who can't) fall farther and farther behind.

What's more, as long as the floor stays so low, ZOS has no choice but to keep nerfing and nerfing to try to lower the ceiling. (And in the process, they keep nerfing the floor as well.) So everyone - ceiling, floor, and everyone in between - gets punished with nerfs for the lack of an in game way to learn how to play effectively.


I'm understand why some players are perfectly happy to stay with their low DPS. Just understand that it's not just the ceiling that's the problem. When the floor is too low, that's also a big problem for Game Devs. It's a problem that ZOS is trying to address with consequences for everyone.

What I don't entirely understand is why people oppose having an in-game way to learn how to play better.

Yup. Couldn't have said it better myself. It's like people are seeing a car drive off the road, over the sidewalk, and slam into a tree, then blame the tree for being there when the car slammed into it.

The ceiling is not the problem...we shouldn't lower the ceiling, it should be as high as players are able to take it. The problem is the floor...it's literally below sea level in ESO, it should be higher. IIt shouldn't be as high as the ceiling, of course. That would be ridiculous. But slightly higher than where it is right now, and the game should do a better job at telling players where they stand and how to reach the bare minimum so they can at least get to the same level as the floor.

I disagree that the ceiling isn't a problem - its just not the only problem.

For the health of ESO, the ceiling needs to be within the limits the Devs set for the content that's available to play. This isn't a game where the Devs are interested in unlimited power creep. They don't want trial groups blasting through their latest stuff saying it's easy-peasy. And so the Ceiling is always going to be at a certain height. Within the building codes, if you will.


I imagine ESO as a room with a vaulted ceiling and a sunken floor.

If ZOS really wants to close the gap and they certainly say they do, then we can't just blame the vaulted ceiling. At some point, the floor also has to be raised.

The reason why I suggest teaching people how to play effectively is that it really does close a gap between the floor and the ceiling. Unlike most of what ZOS has tried, it won't raise the ceiling because the "ceiling players" already know this stuff. They already light attack weave. They already have good rotations. They already know what DPS they do.