Stam in a mag support group: run maces? Lover?

RogueShark · April 2021

I just had a quick question I was having trouble finding information for.
With stam struggling to reach the pen cap alone in mag groups without alkosh/tremorscale, what's the best way to make this up? This is on a class with no inherent bonuses to penetration (think I sit at around 3k pen with CP + one sharpened dagger on my character sheet).

Is it worth running maces over daggers? Lover vs thief or shadow? Or is it just better DPS-wise to eat the 4k lack of penetration over losing crit?

Yes, I understand the optimal solution is "go mag" but I'm in a position where I don't HAVE to with my current cores and I much prefer stam.

Thanks for any insight/suggestions you might have!

WrathOfInnos · April 2021

IMO Magicka groups should have Tremorscale on the main tank. There are several skills used by mag DPS that scale with Physical Penetration now, including Dual Wield light attacks, Poison enchant + status effect, Barbed Trap, Detonating Siphon, Pestilent Colossus.

Depending on what other support sets are needed there could still be an argument for keeping Alkosh in a mixed mag/stam group. Again, the Magicka DPS will benefit from the Physical Pen even if they don’t need the Spell Pen. Alkosh also allows mag DPS of any class to run 5-0-2 with Medusa, which can be nice for front barring Siroria and not worrying about Minor Force.

Beyond those you’ll be on your own. You definitely want to get to the penetration cap, crit is not good enough to justify staying lower. As far as how to get there, most options are pretty similar efficiency. Lover vs Thief gives 453 pen = 1% crit, while Mace vs Dagger gives 440 pen = 1% crit. I don’t think sets like TFS are worth using with all the great stam DPS sets (Rele, Kinra, AY, etc.).

Edit: Also keep in mind that Lover will apply all the time, while Maces may only be active on one bar. Depending what your back bar weapon is, and how much time you spend there, this could be significant.

WrathOfInnos · April 2021

Yeah, you’ll easily be able to get resistances down to:

18200
- 5948 (Maj Breach)
- 2974 (Min Breach)
- 1400 (Piercing CP)
- 2108 Crusher

5770 remaining. Which becomes 3375 after Tremorscale. Basically if you have Tremor then Lover is overkill. If you also get Alkosh then you’re close enough to cap without anything additional.

Sharpened is also a good option, with 455 Pen gained per 1% crit from Precise lost. To that point I believe Sharp Daggers (3276 Pen + 7.5% crit) are slightly better than Precise Maces (3300 Pen + 7.2% crit). Both these options also allow for finer tuning than the jump to ~4.5k pen from Lover, but Sharpened is another option that would be front bar only, since back bar should stay Infused.

If you are a Sorcerer you can also consider Crystal Weapon, which benefits the whole group with 1000 penetration (no longer need Alkosh for Mag DPS to run 5-1-1 or 5-0-2, and provides Minor Prophecy).

RogueShark · April 2021

So swapping to lover won't be any major loss compared to running maces, then?
I have my 2 perf vate daggers in nirn and sharp, haven't picked up maces in the set yet. Seems swapping the mundus will be the most low-effort.

I can also bring up your points with raidlead as well. I've never played mag to any great length save for a brief stint to get GH so I didn't even think of dagger LAs or trap or even 2p medusa.

RogueShark · April 2021

Okay so if we don't get tremorscale or alkosh it's looking like I need to provide 7170 of my own penetration. With lover + 1 sharpened dagger I'm sitting at 7524 which is a bit overpen but I don't think I can help that. My crit is absolutely disgusting to look at tho.

Would it be better to run a precise offhand and be a bit underpen instead?

I highly doubt I'll get alkosh and probably not tremorscale either, tho I did bring up the benefits of tremorscale.
With no changes on raid composition/etc, I'll probably just stick with the adjustment to lover for now and see how it performs next week.

TY so much for your help. I'd asked a couple of my friends before and had been told from more than a couple people that lover over thief/shadow was too much of a DPS loss to consider and that it was better to just not hit the cap. So I've just been getting some mixed responses on the topic (as well as a lot of 'just go mag lol' xD).

WrathOfInnos · April 2021

It’s fine to be a few hundred above or below the cap. Even if you’re at 17.2k (1000 from the cap) adding a Precise weapon will give more benefit than a Sharpened to hit 18.2k (or technically 18.8k, but anything above the 18.2k has no effect).

If you’re able to get Tremorscale then two precise maces or two sharpened daggers front bar would do the trick.

There’s also the option to run Alkosh yourself. Generally not advisable for personal DPS, but it would likely be the best option for the group if a tank cannot use it. Think of the Alkosh 5pc as giving you 7.5% crit if it lets you use daggers instead of maces, and it does ok proc damage (not rele level, but it’s AoE). Combine that with Kinras for a nice support build that still does great damage.

RogueShark · April 2021

Thanks a lot for all your help. I had a nice set of alkosh for back when tanks couldn't proc it in Sunspire but I think I deconned it. -_- Still, not hard to farm and could be worth having as an option.

Thanks for showing me the different choices and letting me know that the 4k or so pen is worth the crit loss.

MudcrabAttack · April 2021

I'm in the same boat, basically all the groups I join are under pen for stamina and not very optimized. Orbs are sporadic.

Tzogvin would be really good for filling in some missing penetration on any build. If all 1487 penetration from that set is used, it's about as strong as kinras, stronger if your barbed trap uptime isn't perfect.

But I've been running a Woodelf Nightblade since launch, now sitting at 5300 base pen from flank, so I'm all in on daggers, Nirn mainhand /precise offhand

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Stam in a mag support group: run maces? Lover?

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