What the horizontal progression in this game really needs...

BejaProphet · April 2021

Context

I LOVE the horizontal progression in this game. I hate alts and I love to swap around things and play any role a situation demands. And ZOS has done a great job and it solves tons is the problems from traditional MMO’s.

However, I am currently limited to only playing tank and damage dealer. Why? I have over fifty skill points laying around even with all my crafting maxed, all my tank skills and all my DD skills bought. I have gear. I have crowns to buy mundus stones for my house. I HAVE the horizontal progression. So what’s the problem?

Skill morphs. I’m a DK. Flames of Oblivion and stone fist are crucial parts of my damage build. Igneous shield is a key morph for my tank build. That means I’m loosing three key morphs for DK healing.

Problem simply put

ZOS, you have doubled down on horizontal progression and that’s the right call. But your ancient formula for skill morphs have unduely limited that vision. The skill morph system does not reflect your increasing resolve for horizontal progression.

Suggestion

Allow us to buy the second morph also but at an elevated price. Two to three skill points. So it would look like this.

Base skill: 1 skill point.
First morph: 1 skill point.
Second morph: 3 skill points
Total cost: 5 skill points

Resulting Benefits

We now have unrestricted horizontal progression. And we have some real gain from all the extra skill points that we veterans have accumulated. And also, all skill points for the foreseeable future are going to matter and be highly coveted, and yet simultaneously not give vertical progression. In addition to this, the elevated cost model forces very meaningful choices as to which skills we will invest so deeply in, because none of us can afford five points in each available skill.

BejaProphet · April 2021

I don’t know why it keeps double posting every thread I start. I’m sorry. 😕

VaranisArano · April 2021

As long as we could only equip one morph at a time, this could be pretty balanced.

zvavi · April 2021

Even with 1 skill point cost it would be balanced horizontal progression... And I would like more horizontal progression in game, but my understanding of horizontal progression and the horizontal progression the developers were advertising seems to differ.

BejaProphet · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

As long as we could only equip one morph at a time, this could be pretty balanced.

Absolutely. I should have been more clear on that. We would have to choose which morph we used at any given time but could freely swap while out of combat.

Elendir2am · April 2021

I have no way of enriching the discussion, so I only ask, what you see as mayor obstacle at changing morph. Gold you have to pay, or fact, that you need go to shrine.

BejaProphet · April 2021

Personally the gold if I had to pick one. But Both are an issue.

Elendir2am · April 2021

I asked, because I expect ZOS want same soft obstacle for morph changing in process. Number of skill point don’t serve this purpose with number of available skill points.

However, if you could get shrines to your house and change morphs one time a day for free, it would be still soft barrier. The former would be easy to implement, later would be mor difficult.

BejaProphet · April 2021

Well, as I suggested in my post, I suspect they are going more “all in” on horizontal progression than what you are suggesting in your post. I admit I could be wrong, but I think that intended obstacle is a relic of past thinking.

zvavi · April 2021

BejaProphet wrote: »

Well, as I suggested in my post, I suspect they are going more “all in” on horizontal progression than what you are suggesting in your post. I admit I could be wrong, but I think that intended obstacle is a relic of past thinking.

Tell that to their "new CP is horizontal progression from 1200 CP". I am 1300 CP and I feel like non of my builds are even full on passives(blue tree). I have only 4 stars unlocked cause I am still taking *** tons of passives. Horizontal progression starts way way way later. I will only unlock a 5th star at around 1500 CP, and guess what then? Again passives. Up till around 2k CP. That's not horizontal progression.

BejaProphet · April 2021

zvavi wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Well, as I suggested in my post, I suspect they are going more “all in” on horizontal progression than what you are suggesting in your post. I admit I could be wrong, but I think that intended obstacle is a relic of past thinking.

Tell that to their "new CP is horizontal progression from 1200 CP". I am 1300 CP and I feel like non of my builds are even full on passives(blue tree). I have only 4 stars unlocked cause I am still taking *** tons of passives. Horizontal progression starts way way way later. I will only unlock a 5th star at around 1500 CP, and guess what then? Again passives. Up till around 2k CP. That's not horizontal progression.

I get what you are saying but I disagree. I think cp 2.0 is designed with much less vertical progression. Are there more “points” involved in getting that vertical progression? Certainly. But the power level has undoubtably been lowered. The vertical power gap between a CP zero to CP 3,600 has been lowered. This is not referring to how long it takes, but the amount of power gained.

What we have in its place place are slots that let us continually swap out how we are buffing our character. That’s the horizontal.

But honestly, I think the developers themselves have been pretty forth coming in seeing horizontal progression to be the biggest factor in CO 2.0, but no direct developer quotes spring to mind.

zvavi · April 2021

BejaProphet wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Well, as I suggested in my post, I suspect they are going more “all in” on horizontal progression than what you are suggesting in your post. I admit I could be wrong, but I think that intended obstacle is a relic of past thinking.

Tell that to their "new CP is horizontal progression from 1200 CP". I am 1300 CP and I feel like non of my builds are even full on passives(blue tree). I have only 4 stars unlocked cause I am still taking *** tons of passives. Horizontal progression starts way way way later. I will only unlock a 5th star at around 1500 CP, and guess what then? Again passives. Up till around 2k CP. That's not horizontal progression.

I get what you are saying but I disagree. I think cp 2.0 is designed with much less vertical progression. Are there more “points” involved in getting that vertical progression? Certainly. But the power level has undoubtably been lowered. The vertical power gap between a CP zero to CP 3,600 has been lowered. This is not referring to how long it takes, but the amount of power gained.

What we have in its place place are slots that let us continually swap out how we are buffing our character. That’s the horizontal.

But honestly, I think the developers themselves have been pretty forth coming in seeing horizontal progression to be the biggest factor in CO 2.0, but no direct developer quotes spring to mind.

Less vertical progression =/= horizontal progression...and I disagree, with old CP 600 to 810 was barely any difference (old CP power gain was slowing the higher CP you are), just like from 1200 to 1620 now. Just more grind.

BejaProphet · April 2021

That’s what I’m saying though. For example I’m at around 1,200 cp. I’m a tank. There really is nothing I can get at this point to make me any better at tanking.

I’ve reached the end of vertical progression when it comes to tanking.

What I can do is acquire a bunch of stuff that would make me a better damage dealer or healer. And if I find myself wanting to do those things, I will have those abilities to swap onto my champion bar at a moments notice. That is the very definition of horizontal progression. My character becomes not more powerful but more flexible in what I can swap to.

zvavi · April 2021

BejaProphet wrote: »

That’s what I’m saying though. For example I’m at around 1,200 cp. I’m a tank. There really is nothing I can get at this point to make me any better at tanking.

I’ve reached the end of vertical progression when it comes to tanking.

What I can do is acquire a bunch of stuff that would make me a better damage dealer or healer. And if I find myself wanting to do those things, I will have those abilities to swap onto my champion bar at a moments notice. That is the very definition of horizontal progression. My character becomes not more powerful but more flexible in what I can swap to.

40 healing done. 40 healing taken (don't tell me that tank's self heal is not vertical prog)
40 max stam 40 max mag (max pools, even if not needed, a point spent here means more points spent in health elsewhere)
40 mob dmg taken, 40 martial dmg taken, 40 magical damage (mitigations)
200 slottable stars.
That's 480 blue CP, which is 1340 CP. And I ain't even including all the things which you might disagree that are for tanking. (40 points in crit for better self heals, 50 points flawless ritual for elemental effects) which will "boost" this to over 1600 CP. Your tank might feel like your vertical progression is done. Mine isn't.

BejaProphet · April 2021

I don’t think we are going to come to an agreement on this because we are not arguing about facts, but two ideas on the significance of those facts. The very things you are saying are, in my mind, proving my point rather than yours.

The fact that over the next 2,400!!! champion points my advancement in tanking is going to be 4% increase to healing done and about 1k to my resource pools (anything significant in the rest you listed I have.) Those facts we agree on. But in my mind they prove that this system is built with extremely limited vertical progression in mind.

In the end, you seem to be saying that how long it takes to acquire these things shows they are aiming for vertical progression. While I’m saying to forget that and look at the boosts you are taking so long to get, and that shows their emphasis is horizontal progression.

zvavi · April 2021

Horizontal progression is progression without necessarily becoming more powerful, instead having more options available. What you are describing is not horizontal progression, it will be only when you have those passives. Just a very slow vertical one (which will end for me in around 1600). And you are right, those are not facts, just terminology. Your suggestion though is horizontal progression, and it would be nice to have more horizontal progression in game indeed.

BejaProphet · April 2021

I’m ofcourse not denying that the system contains vertical progression. It certainly does. I’m arguing that just how minuscule that vertical progression is, proves they are emphasizing the horizontal aspects of the system.

Edit note: I should say it strongly suggests it, rather than “proves”

BejaProphet · April 2021

Some references:
Brian Wheeler

The champion bar enables us to help control vertical power by allowing only certain amounts of stars to be slotted and controls how many passives are active on your character,” notes Wheeler

Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/59651

Brian Wheeler again telling the FIRST of multiple goals in the new champion system

First, we want a system that encourages horizontal progression (rewards that prioritize gameplay variety over character power by introducing new and unique tools for you to incorporate into your builds) over vertical progression (rewards that prioritize increased character power by improving existing character tools or replacing them with objectively better options) to provide a better play experience for players of all power levels.

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559230/update-29-combat-preview/p1

They are stating themselves that the goal of the new system is to place a greater emphasis on horizontal progression.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2021

No Issue from me as long as they cant both be slotted, seems that is the general consensus.

I would love to be able to go back and forth between Twilight Tormentor and Matriarch as an example.

Agenericname · April 2021

I would like to see something like this come to fruition, but I dont think increasing the cost of the other morph would help.

In many cases if youre going to transition a tank to DPS or healer you already need to invest skill points into another armor line and either 1 or 2 weapon lines. Leaving the 3rd morph at a single point would be sufficient and still leave room the rest of the game.