Why? Because ZOS is also nerfing PvE builds on the regular without PvP having anything to do with it. None of your problems will actually go away.
Need an example? Crit chance. Crit is very niche in PvP and borderline pointless, with Nightblades being slippery enough to make it work, provided the player has the skills to pull it off. And even those builds hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, so they don't warrant a nerf. Yet ZOS obliterated crit chance in PvE and it had nothing to do with PvP.
It's really annoying when PvE players always point towards PvP whenever they get nerfed, as if things can never be overpowered or broken on their end.

Of course some nerfs are due to PvP, but not all of them and I do not think the changes to Mitigation were because of PvP. In fact, the tank meta in PvP has nothing to do with mitigation but rather max-health-percent-based healing and heavy armor proc sets being free damage.
ZOS doesn't like that some PvE content is too easy or that people can just stack shields to ignore enemy damage to the point where dungeon groups don't even need healers in 99% of all dungeons. If trial and dungeon bosses had forum accounts they would cry for PvE nerfs too. But they don't need to, because ZOS already has the data and will nerf accordingly.

The CP rework has supposedly been worked on for years. Yes, it helps address some issues in PvP, but especially with noCP PvP in mind, this can hardly be the full picture. If damage dealers and tanks receive more damage, without getting killed outright, then healers actually have a point of being invited to groups again. That's the theory at least.
Now you can blame ZOS for not doing their balancing properly, because oneshots still reign supreme in most content and neither mitigation nor healing really matter if mechanics are "burn the boss before we get oneshot". You can also blame them for not using Battle Spirit more, in cases when they actually should. But you can't point to PvP for all your problems.

Zand3rs wrote: »

Seriously since i started playing again a year ago i have seen so many changes nerfing and making base game suffer.

You nerf sets because they are overpowered in PVP but removes possibilities in PVE
You remove mitigation because its to good in PVP basegame and Arenas is getting much harder for us casual players.
You change cp system to try make more options and make it harder for PVP to slot all points and PVE suffers, Not everyone is going to live inside nbrp for a few weeks to max cp points.

Seriously, why don't you just make pvp specific gear and make skills provide altered buffs if your in PVP or PVE and let us PVE players who enjoy doing trials and such have diversity and not being forced to all use the exact same gear because you make everything good useless in pve.

I bet you this is exactly what would make the game more balanced yet you fail to see it.
Sick and tired of nerfs and changes that only makes everything harder than it has to be.

Did a test today with the mitigation points for bleed dmg empty vs full and its not making much difference.
I want to have fun and this is making me really frustrated. Mitigation needs to be looked over and if it is not possible because of PVP i have proved my point.

Also want to point out that i love hard stuff, i love when i have to put down time to get good at something but the stupid stuff has to go!

Hope this finds its way to someone who actually read *** here and give it a minute and care enough for the low % of players not as skilled and awesome as many others who can do anything in this game naked.

Yup. Whenever I play my bosmer and the “pointless for pve” stealth detect, I am reminded about the tunnel vision they have when it comes to balancing in this game.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why? Because ZOS is also nerfing PvE builds on the regular without PvP having anything to do with it. None of your problems will actually go away.
Need an example? Crit chance. Crit is very niche in PvP and borderline pointless, with Nightblades being slippery enough to make it work, provided the player has the skills to pull it off. And even those builds hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, so they don't warrant a nerf. Yet ZOS obliterated crit chance in PvE and it had nothing to do with PvP.
It's really annoying when PvE players always point towards PvP whenever they get nerfed, as if things can never be overpowered or broken on their end.

Of course some nerfs are due to PvP, but not all of them and I do not think the changes to Mitigation were because of PvP. In fact, the tank meta in PvP has nothing to do with mitigation but rather max-health-percent-based healing and heavy armor proc sets being free damage.
ZOS doesn't like that some PvE content is too easy or that people can just stack shields to ignore enemy damage to the point where dungeon groups don't even need healers in 99% of all dungeons. If trial and dungeon bosses had forum accounts they would cry for PvE nerfs too. But they don't need to, because ZOS already has the data and will nerf accordingly.

The CP rework has supposedly been worked on for years. Yes, it helps address some issues in PvP, but especially with noCP PvP in mind, this can hardly be the full picture. If damage dealers and tanks receive more damage, without getting killed outright, then healers actually have a point of being invited to groups again. That's the theory at least.
Now you can blame ZOS for not doing their balancing properly, because oneshots still reign supreme in most content and neither mitigation nor healing really matter if mechanics are "burn the boss before we get oneshot". You can also blame them for not using Battle Spirit more, in cases when they actually should. But you can't point to PvP for all your problems.

"ZOS doesn't llike that some PvE content is too easy" cracked me so hard. LOL. If that's so why they nerf every dungeon to the ground. Dungeons that used to be hard are now a joke that any casual player can kill without even trying. ICP, WGT, MHK, Mazzatun, Malatar... and more. I remember these dungeons to be hard, now they are a joke.

In my 3 years of playing ESO I know, that ZOS is unable to balance things properly. Some makes sense, some are good but most changes are downright stupid or don't make any sense. Yes, they nerf some good PvE sets cuz of PvP players crying the bacon out of it. In my honest opinion the changes that ZOS makes are random somewhat. I personally like the new CP system but I hate that ZOS basically forced everyone to grind CPs to get decent dps and mitigation. Now CPs are good and at the same time bad. I don't know if they have 200 people in their team all doing just their stuff randomly without thinking it through or what. You can see that they don't even know what is happening in their own game, when they are streaming vet dungeons and they know nothing about mechanics XD.

I am not hating ZOS entirely, some changes are truly good, make me happy and I enjoy them. But in some instances it raises a question mark like "what the hell is this".

I would like to see gear act different in PvP than in PvE so that tweaks could be made that doesn't affect everything. Same gear just different way they interact depending on if the foe is opponent or is player. The problem I see with that is would it add extra stress on the server when players are sieging a keep. The game would need to determine are you attacking a guard or a player then adjust the damage accordingly.
I don't think completely different gear is the answer because the game needs players to do a variety of activities. That is why good PvP gear can be found in trials.

Also needs to be pointed out the biggest changes and nerfs happened because ZoS wanted to reel in PvE. They were upset with how quick groups were finishing the new hard mode content. They were also concerned that power creep was meaning more and more players could ignore mechanics. That isn't good for the game. PvP took huge hits when ZoS tried to control PvE.

I left over a year ago and just subbed again for a year. I gave it a few days but I’m loosing interest in it once again. Mystic items look good until put into practice. The ring of the pale order, for instance, is good for mid to high damage dealers only. For low damage dealers like myself, it doesn’t provide enough healing to justify equipping it. Most of the overland sets that I use got nerfed. Raising the floor isn’t working. Nothing has changed for me as a low end player. Good luck with that. Been in the game since 2017 and my damage actually has gone from 30k dps down to about 12k dps. I don’t even try anymore. No options for good broadband...just TMobile LTE and it’s LOL.

Maybe Microsoft will make the needed changes in the future.

1. Keep pve and pvp separated.
2. Reverse the nerfs in “HorrorWind”. I would like more damage and shields (for pve). Some of us older people (retired) just can’t do what a 15 to 50 year old can do.
3. Change LA. Integrate the LA damage into the skills. So LA isn’t needed anymore. Just hit the keys 1 thru 0. Might help with server lag. I’ve seen daily lag spikes to 999 ms and beyond...it’s getting old. Animations can be canceled just by hitting any key..simple.
4. Make the target hit box bigger. Trying to aim and hit something is difficult at times (QOL change)

Sorry for the post/rant...just frustrated with constant nerfs when other people claiming stuff to be overpowered....

Agenericname wrote: »

Majkiy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why? Because ZOS is also nerfing PvE builds on the regular without PvP having anything to do with it. None of your problems will actually go away.
Need an example? Crit chance. Crit is very niche in PvP and borderline pointless, with Nightblades being slippery enough to make it work, provided the player has the skills to pull it off. And even those builds hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, so they don't warrant a nerf. Yet ZOS obliterated crit chance in PvE and it had nothing to do with PvP.
It's really annoying when PvE players always point towards PvP whenever they get nerfed, as if things can never be overpowered or broken on their end.

Of course some nerfs are due to PvP, but not all of them and I do not think the changes to Mitigation were because of PvP. In fact, the tank meta in PvP has nothing to do with mitigation but rather max-health-percent-based healing and heavy armor proc sets being free damage.
ZOS doesn't like that some PvE content is too easy or that people can just stack shields to ignore enemy damage to the point where dungeon groups don't even need healers in 99% of all dungeons. If trial and dungeon bosses had forum accounts they would cry for PvE nerfs too. But they don't need to, because ZOS already has the data and will nerf accordingly.

The CP rework has supposedly been worked on for years. Yes, it helps address some issues in PvP, but especially with noCP PvP in mind, this can hardly be the full picture. If damage dealers and tanks receive more damage, without getting killed outright, then healers actually have a point of being invited to groups again. That's the theory at least.
Now you can blame ZOS for not doing their balancing properly, because oneshots still reign supreme in most content and neither mitigation nor healing really matter if mechanics are "burn the boss before we get oneshot". You can also blame them for not using Battle Spirit more, in cases when they actually should. But you can't point to PvP for all your problems.

"ZOS doesn't llike that some PvE content is too easy" cracked me so hard. LOL. If that's so why they nerf every dungeon to the ground. Dungeons that used to be hard are now a joke that any casual player can kill without even trying. ICP, WGT, MHK, Mazzatun, Malatar... and more. I remember these dungeons to be hard, now they are a joke.

ZOS typically says why they nerf the dungeons. When WGT and BRF were nerfed they said that they had identified "choke points" that were problematic for groups, like the Planar Inhibitor or the Attros on the island in BRF. They'll typically run for a while before they get nerfed though. How long was MHK out before it got nerfed? It's usually after the dungeon has been out for a while.

There's a rhythm to the way they do it. They do look at completion rates and make decisions based off of that data.

If they were that easy we wouldn't have our biweekly "separate queue for DLC" threads and tanks wouldn't hide from PUGs.

This is the nature of horizontal progression. The only way to keep the content relevant is to keep out power from exceeding it's original design. They could completely remove PvP from the game and we would still get nerfed.

As usuall they focus on a casuals and ignoring veteran/end game players who seeks a challenge and the only thing we get is HMs in trials. I don't think it would be too hard to implement a difficulty for these players. Would solve issues between casuals and veteran players and the nerf zos makes wouldn't make people mad.

For example in WoW I like how there is normal difficulty, heroic (like veteran in ESO) and mythic for the end game players so all players can enjoy dungeons. In ESO some dungeons are way too easy for me and my group and we just not get to enjoy them anymore.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Majkiy wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Majkiy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why? Because ZOS is also nerfing PvE builds on the regular without PvP having anything to do with it. None of your problems will actually go away.
Need an example? Crit chance. Crit is very niche in PvP and borderline pointless, with Nightblades being slippery enough to make it work, provided the player has the skills to pull it off. And even those builds hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, so they don't warrant a nerf. Yet ZOS obliterated crit chance in PvE and it had nothing to do with PvP.
It's really annoying when PvE players always point towards PvP whenever they get nerfed, as if things can never be overpowered or broken on their end.

Of course some nerfs are due to PvP, but not all of them and I do not think the changes to Mitigation were because of PvP. In fact, the tank meta in PvP has nothing to do with mitigation but rather max-health-percent-based healing and heavy armor proc sets being free damage.
ZOS doesn't like that some PvE content is too easy or that people can just stack shields to ignore enemy damage to the point where dungeon groups don't even need healers in 99% of all dungeons. If trial and dungeon bosses had forum accounts they would cry for PvE nerfs too. But they don't need to, because ZOS already has the data and will nerf accordingly.

The CP rework has supposedly been worked on for years. Yes, it helps address some issues in PvP, but especially with noCP PvP in mind, this can hardly be the full picture. If damage dealers and tanks receive more damage, without getting killed outright, then healers actually have a point of being invited to groups again. That's the theory at least.
Now you can blame ZOS for not doing their balancing properly, because oneshots still reign supreme in most content and neither mitigation nor healing really matter if mechanics are "burn the boss before we get oneshot". You can also blame them for not using Battle Spirit more, in cases when they actually should. But you can't point to PvP for all your problems.

"ZOS doesn't llike that some PvE content is too easy" cracked me so hard. LOL. If that's so why they nerf every dungeon to the ground. Dungeons that used to be hard are now a joke that any casual player can kill without even trying. ICP, WGT, MHK, Mazzatun, Malatar... and more. I remember these dungeons to be hard, now they are a joke.

ZOS typically says why they nerf the dungeons. When WGT and BRF were nerfed they said that they had identified "choke points" that were problematic for groups, like the Planar Inhibitor or the Attros on the island in BRF. They'll typically run for a while before they get nerfed though. How long was MHK out before it got nerfed? It's usually after the dungeon has been out for a while.

There's a rhythm to the way they do it. They do look at completion rates and make decisions based off of that data.

If they were that easy we wouldn't have our biweekly "separate queue for DLC" threads and tanks wouldn't hide from PUGs.

This is the nature of horizontal progression. The only way to keep the content relevant is to keep out power from exceeding it's original design. They could completely remove PvP from the game and we would still get nerfed.

As usuall they focus on a casuals and ignoring veteran/end game players who seeks a challenge and the only thing we get is HMs in trials. I don't think it would be too hard to implement a difficulty for these players. Would solve issues between casuals and veteran players and the nerf zos makes wouldn't make people mad.

For example in WoW I like how there is normal difficulty, heroic (like veteran in ESO) and mythic for the end game players so all players can enjoy dungeons. In ESO some dungeons are way too easy for me and my group and we just not get to enjoy them anymore.

I am wondering how much of this is based on real world economics.

In WoW dungeons are part of the “package” of an xpac. So the budget for them is included in that.

Meanwhile dungeons in eso have a more direct economic budget, as players need to purchase them independently. So if players see they are not getting value for their purchase, they may not buy future ones. That would mean less budget for future dungeons.

•••

Also dungeons need to be done by pugs. Vet trials generally have organized groups. Vet dungeons need to conform to group finder dynamics.

In therm of theory whatever. I undestand that this could never happen for various reasons, but still. Point stands. They really should figure out balancing and stuff before doing some random stuff just to keep players playing and get money from it.

Majkiy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Majkiy wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Majkiy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why? Because ZOS is also nerfing PvE builds on the regular without PvP having anything to do with it. None of your problems will actually go away.
Need an example? Crit chance. Crit is very niche in PvP and borderline pointless, with Nightblades being slippery enough to make it work, provided the player has the skills to pull it off. And even those builds hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, so they don't warrant a nerf. Yet ZOS obliterated crit chance in PvE and it had nothing to do with PvP.
It's really annoying when PvE players always point towards PvP whenever they get nerfed, as if things can never be overpowered or broken on their end.

Of course some nerfs are due to PvP, but not all of them and I do not think the changes to Mitigation were because of PvP. In fact, the tank meta in PvP has nothing to do with mitigation but rather max-health-percent-based healing and heavy armor proc sets being free damage.
ZOS doesn't like that some PvE content is too easy or that people can just stack shields to ignore enemy damage to the point where dungeon groups don't even need healers in 99% of all dungeons. If trial and dungeon bosses had forum accounts they would cry for PvE nerfs too. But they don't need to, because ZOS already has the data and will nerf accordingly.

The CP rework has supposedly been worked on for years. Yes, it helps address some issues in PvP, but especially with noCP PvP in mind, this can hardly be the full picture. If damage dealers and tanks receive more damage, without getting killed outright, then healers actually have a point of being invited to groups again. That's the theory at least.
Now you can blame ZOS for not doing their balancing properly, because oneshots still reign supreme in most content and neither mitigation nor healing really matter if mechanics are "burn the boss before we get oneshot". You can also blame them for not using Battle Spirit more, in cases when they actually should. But you can't point to PvP for all your problems.

"ZOS doesn't llike that some PvE content is too easy" cracked me so hard. LOL. If that's so why they nerf every dungeon to the ground. Dungeons that used to be hard are now a joke that any casual player can kill without even trying. ICP, WGT, MHK, Mazzatun, Malatar... and more. I remember these dungeons to be hard, now they are a joke.

ZOS typically says why they nerf the dungeons. When WGT and BRF were nerfed they said that they had identified "choke points" that were problematic for groups, like the Planar Inhibitor or the Attros on the island in BRF. They'll typically run for a while before they get nerfed though. How long was MHK out before it got nerfed? It's usually after the dungeon has been out for a while.

There's a rhythm to the way they do it. They do look at completion rates and make decisions based off of that data.

If they were that easy we wouldn't have our biweekly "separate queue for DLC" threads and tanks wouldn't hide from PUGs.

This is the nature of horizontal progression. The only way to keep the content relevant is to keep out power from exceeding it's original design. They could completely remove PvP from the game and we would still get nerfed.

As usuall they focus on a casuals and ignoring veteran/end game players who seeks a challenge and the only thing we get is HMs in trials. I don't think it would be too hard to implement a difficulty for these players. Would solve issues between casuals and veteran players and the nerf zos makes wouldn't make people mad.

For example in WoW I like how there is normal difficulty, heroic (like veteran in ESO) and mythic for the end game players so all players can enjoy dungeons. In ESO some dungeons are way too easy for me and my group and we just not get to enjoy them anymore.

I am wondering how much of this is based on real world economics.

In WoW dungeons are part of the “package” of an xpac. So the budget for them is included in that.

Meanwhile dungeons in eso have a more direct economic budget, as players need to purchase them independently. So if players see they are not getting value for their purchase, they may not buy future ones. That would mean less budget for future dungeons.

•••

Also dungeons need to be done by pugs. Vet trials generally have organized groups. Vet dungeons need to conform to group finder dynamics.

In therm of theory whatever. I undestand that this could never happen for various reasons, but still. Point stands. They really should figure out balancing and stuff before doing some random stuff just to keep players playing and get money from it.

Im curious, when you run vet DLCs, what group composition do you normally run with?

I dont think that some of the changes are random. Tanks sustain for example, at least in part, I think this was done to give relevance to healers in this content. Its not horribly uncommon to see a tank that was (still are) able to provide both major and minor courage and forego a healer altogether. People like to blame PvP, but we would have seen a correction, or an attempt at one, regardless.

Some, to me, make no sense at all. Bosmer racial changes for example.

A while back someone suggested another mode, vet no-CP. Alcast if Im not mistaken. With CP having less weight in 2.0 vs 1.0 it seems like it could be fun. Unless ZOS balanced the rewards better than they currently balance the randoms, I doubt it would gain much traction.

@SidraWillowsky
As someone who plays a warden tank, Im concerned as well.

kargen27 wrote: »

I would like to see gear act different in PvP than in PvE so that tweaks could be made that doesn't affect everything. Same gear just different way they interact depending on if the foe is opponent or is player. The problem I see with that is would it add extra stress on the server when players are sieging a keep. The game would need to determine are you attacking a guard or a player then adjust the damage accordingly.
I don't think completely different gear is the answer because the game needs players to do a variety of activities. That is why good PvP gear can be found in trials.

Also needs to be pointed out the biggest changes and nerfs happened because ZoS wanted to reel in PvE. They were upset with how quick groups were finishing the new hard mode content. They were also concerned that power creep was meaning more and more players could ignore mechanics. That isn't good for the game. PvP took huge hits when ZoS tried to control PvE.

You are wrong here...completely different gear IS the answer. The fact is if someone goes into PvP wearing their PvE gear, they are at a SEVERE disadvantage compared with someone with a PvP focused build with PvP gear. Its a lie that people believe they can do any content wearing any gear. Sure, you can indeed do any content wearing whatever gear you want...but it does NOT mean you are competitive while doing so, you might as well get rid of the lie entirely when it comes to PvP vs. PvE content. Keeping that in mind...why not have PvP(or PvE) specific gear?(the PvE in PvP areas isn't even worth mentioning, its overland stuff and can be done wearing nothing, so PvP gear won't affect it much) I mean...look at vicious death as an example. Its obviously a PvP set designed for PvP and does no one any good at all in PvE(or at least not the 5 piece bonus). No one wears that set in PvE, what would be the harm of relegating that to a PvP-only set? The same goes for trial sets in PvE...the only people who wear those in PvP areas are people who can't be bothered to swap gear...but in reality, separating the sets would be easy. Beginner/casual PvP players could just use crafted PvP sets as they play casually, which might not be the best, but is good enough until they decide whether they want to farm whatever is considered BiS that week. Each set just needs a PvP or PvE toggle. Its not like there are a lack of sets...sure, someone may usually use say Black Rose in PvE sometimes(I do myself on one build) but there are plenty of garbage sets no one at all uses that could be repurposed(or make new sets) as PvE only that would do the same thing...and the nice thing about having 2 separate versions of essentially the same set would be you could buff/nerf it as needed without hurting the other side.

No, I do not want different gear or pre-made “loadouts” or whatever for PvP. Theory crafting — both for PvE and PvP — whether for strategic or more cosmetic/thematic reasons — are part of what makes it fun! And I want at least most of my stuff to work the same between game modes. It’s enough that my opponents are totally different, I like to see how my gear, abilities, etc. work in different situations.

It's amusing how people in this thread seem very quick to jump the 'you always blame PvP, but PvE... - Oh PvE? Well just think about PvP!' bandwagon lol. Imo it's not about which is better or 'right' (they're both valid play modes that a lot of people enjoy and neither deserved to be shafted), I think both of them would benefit from complete separation of PvE and PvP. In fact, they already are majorly separated - we have battle spirit with its 18363 buffs/debuffs, we have PvP-specific champion points perks, we have PvP-exclusive traits (impenetrable), heck, right now we have 90% of the game's sets disabled in Cyrodiil. It's hypocritical at this point to insist that they 'won't separate PvE from PvP as they want to have players to have a smooth transition from one to another' which iirc has been their answer to this sort of requests.

There will be no smooth transition. There already isn't one. In order to PvP you need to equip entirely different gear in different traits, grab a different Mundus, different potions, different skills, even respec some morphs to PvP-oriented variant and learn a whole different flow of combat. At this point they really should just accept it and instead of Battle Spirit with 17381689 buffs/debuffs make it a completely different layout in PvP with skills working differently, gear working differently, etc. They will never ever balance PvE and PvP together, just make both crowds unhappy while trying to do so, it's really way beyond time that they separate them.

I think very few are happy with the swinging back and forth of balancing. The game feels like it is a beta.

Yet there has to be a clear understanding that shifting balance and metas is a part of mmo business models that really suck, especially for casual players.

1) They are always working to find ways of getting people to do past content. Think of everyone running Arx for medusa.
2) Selling new content. Get people interested in the next dlc or whatever with powerful gear. Problem is a lot of strong sets haven't been adjusted. It's been commented before over and over again.