Are Eso vampires and werewolves backwards?

Ryuvain · March 2021

Vampires:
Go berserk using blood frenzy.
Short transformation for berserk style power window.
Sense enemies through walls like a blood hunting werewolf npc would.

Werewolves:
Can sustain their transformation.
Don't use ultimate often as there's no incentive to use. Vampires have a debuff that pushes you to use their skills.
Are much tankier than vampires.

The npcs on both sides play correctly however. Werewolves are feral berserkers while vampires are more in control and easily maintain their transformations.

What gives?
Would explain why I choose to stay a vampire instead of werewolf, despite liking wolves more. As werewolf I hardly use the ultimate in most cases.

Vevvev · March 2021

Werewolf is actually very close to how it was in the single player games and it's actually vampire that's a bit off with it's debuffs and ability structure. Like the devs took the few vampire abilities that made sense and made them difficult to use/worthless (Mesmerize being difficult and Vampiric Drain being worthless) while then adding things that traditionally never were in TES games like the claw swipe and Blood Frenzy.

I just head cannon that Eviscerate and it's morphs are blood magic since they are in line with Nightblade's blood magic abilities, but Blood Frenzy is a weird one since they tried to tie Vampire's incredible physical and magical power into an ability instead of a passive. And that ability costs health.... For some reason.

waterfairy · March 2021

once they changed it to where all non-vamp skills cost more they killed vamps for me...I was only a vamp for the stage 3 passive but 8% skill cost increase is crazy

Ratzkifal · March 2021

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

Ryuvain · March 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

WhereArtThouVampires · March 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

Ratzkifal · March 2021

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

But they can smell people through walls. Making people visible through walls is just mechanically easier to implement than to have "scent trails" from from the direction of the nearest enemy.

Ryuvain · March 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

But they can smell people through walls. Making people visible through walls is just mechanically easier to implement than to have "scent trails" from from the direction of the nearest enemy.

That's exactly what I meant, I said senses not only seeing through walls. Just seems so much like what a hunter would do right?

TX12001rwb17_ESO · March 2021

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES given they function as people would expect Vampires to function, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Same logic applies here, the creature known as a Vampire in TES is not a proper Vampire at all, proper Vampires do not get weaker from consuming blood, proper Vampires get stronger from it just like Lamae Bal's bloodline does.

Ryuvain · March 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Actually, player vampires are altered, maybe even differently from Lamae herself. These vampires do predate others, but not in game release dates. Other scrolls games vampires worked differently before this game.

Also the revamp flipped vampires around itself. Eso vampires were more accurate to others scrolls games before the revamp. And they still were the same Lamae vampires.

Orion_89 · March 2021

I am okay with how vampires work right now, except few things:
— Guise should become more normal after the blood consumption.
— Using skills should lower your stage, make you more monsterous because of blood energy loss.
— Remove non-vampire skills debuff
— Feeding and starvation should have both unique buffs and debuffs.

About the last.
Full:
— Health regeneration 100%.
— Vampire skills buff.
— Fire resistance debuff.
Hungry:
— Immunity to the fear.
— Major Force buff.
— Major Evasion buff.
— Health regeneration 0%.
— Vampire skills lower your health.
— Fire resistance still debuff, but maybe flame damage gives major berserk or sort of.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · March 2021

This is what I would do to make Vampirism heaps better.

Perfect Scion is changed to Berserk Scion > Lets you lunge at the targeted enemy dealing XXXX physical damage that scales off of stamina, it would function similar to the effect of Clouding Swarm before the Vampire overhaul.

Instead of a Health Regeneration Debuff Vampires get an Outside Healing Debuff at 3%/6%/9%/12%, inturn they gain an additional 100 Health Regeneration for every stage they are so they heal faster not slower.

Eviscerate and it's morphs will cost health by default, the first morph will add range to the ability while the second morph will deal disease damage and scale off of stamina.

Blood Frenzy should add Major Evasion when used to help make up for the cost.

Unnatural Movement should make the Vampire immune to cleansable snares (or at least 50% resistant) to add a combat purpose to the passive, right now it is better to be at stage 3 then stage 4 as far as combat goes for unnatural movement currently has no benefit for combat.

Ryuvain · March 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

This is what I would do to make Vampirism heaps better.

Perfect Scion is changed to Berserk Scion > Lets you lunge at the targeted enemy dealing XXXX physical damage that scales off of stamina, it would function similar to the effect of Clouding Swarm before the Vampire overhaul.

Instead of a Health Regeneration Debuff Vampires get an Outside Healing Debuff at 3%/6%/9%/12%, inturn they gain an additional 100 Health Regeneration for every stage they are so they heal faster not slower.

Eviscerate and it's morphs will cost health by default, the first morph will add range to the ability while the second morph will deal disease damage and scale off of stamina.

Blood Frenzy should add Major Evasion when used to help make up for the cost.

Unnatural Movement should make the Vampire immune to cleansable snares (or at least 50% resistant) to add a combat purpose to the passive, right now it is better to be at stage 3 then stage 4 as far as combat goes for unnatural movement currently has no benefit for combat.

I like those ideas a lot. I'm not opposed to berserker effects for vamps, but just that they have a lot of them compared to wolves. Honestly wolves need a revamp themselves.

waterfairy · March 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES given they function as people would expect Vampires to function, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Same logic applies here, the creature known as a Vampire in TES is not a proper Vampire at all, proper Vampires do not get weaker from consuming blood, proper Vampires get stronger from it just like Lamae Bal's bloodline does.

That's not how vampirism works in TES. It's a disease, you consume blood to stave off the disease and remain more human...not consuming blood makes you more feral/hungry and lets the disease have more of an effect on you making you less human and more vampire with enhanced abilities. I'm pretty sure this is the same strain from oblivion and that's how it worked

TX12001rwb17_ESO · March 2021

Vigarr wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES given they function as people would expect Vampires to function, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Same logic applies here, the creature known as a Vampire in TES is not a proper Vampire at all, proper Vampires do not get weaker from consuming blood, proper Vampires get stronger from it just like Lamae Bal's bloodline does.

That's not how vampirism works in TES. It's a disease, you consume blood to stave off the disease and remain more human...not consuming blood makes you more feral/hungry and lets the disease have more of an effect on you making you less human and more vampire with enhanced abilities. I'm pretty sure this is the same strain from oblivion and that's how it worked

This is not the strain from Oblivion, that was caused by Porphilic Hemophilia and functioned very differently.

We get infected by a Bloodfiend but we do not become a Noxiphilic Sanguivoria Vampire, it is directly stated in the quest that we cannot be turned due to being corrupted by Molag Bal, so we get sent by a Vampire from Lamae Bal's clan to go visit her where we go through a ritual and become a Blood Scion instead.

The creature we can become in ESO is a "True Vampire" who gets stronger from consuming blood and not weaker, Lamae Bal even states this to the player.

WhereArtThouVampires · March 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

But they can smell people through walls. Making people visible through walls is just mechanically easier to implement than to have "scent trails" from from the direction of the nearest enemy.

Has this ever actually been in an ES game tho? Werewolves have never been able to detect people through an ability to my knowledge.

WhereArtThouVampires · March 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES given they function as people would expect Vampires to function, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Same logic applies here, the creature known as a Vampire in TES is not a proper Vampire at all, proper Vampires do not get weaker from consuming blood, proper Vampires get stronger from it just like Lamae Bal's bloodline does.

That's not how vampirism works in TES. It's a disease, you consume blood to stave off the disease and remain more human...not consuming blood makes you more feral/hungry and lets the disease have more of an effect on you making you less human and more vampire with enhanced abilities. I'm pretty sure this is the same strain from oblivion and that's how it worked

This is not the strain from Oblivion, that was caused by Porphilic Hemophilia and functioned very differently.

We get infected by a Bloodfiend but we do not become a Noxiphilic Sanguivoria Vampire, it is directly stated in the quest that we cannot be turned due to being corrupted by Molag Bal, so we get sent by a Vampire from Lamae Bal's clan to go visit her where we go through a ritual and become a Blood Scion instead.

The creature we can become in ESO is a "True Vampire" who gets stronger from consuming blood and not weaker, Lamae Bal even states this to the player.

More like True Bloodfiend if you ask me Lol

Ryuvain · March 2021

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

But they can smell people through walls. Making people visible through walls is just mechanically easier to implement than to have "scent trails" from from the direction of the nearest enemy.

Has this ever actually been in an ES game tho? Werewolves have never been able to detect people through an ability to my knowledge.

Skyrim has the howl/totem of the hunt. Not sure about previous titles as I never really got deep into them.

Besides they always bring up how strong their senses are, probably stronger than vampires. Always talking about knowing you're a werewolf, where you are, long distance tracking to the shrine from just a glove, smelling your blood, etc.

waterfairy · March 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You say Lamae Bals' clan works backwards from other Vampires? ever think maybe it is the other Vampires that work backwards from her given she is the original Vampire, her bloodline is the original bloodline

If anything perhaps her and her bloodline are the only true Vampires in TES given they function as people would expect Vampires to function, think of it like this, if you saw a stereotypical D&D Lich in TES and then compared it to the creature that in TES is known as a Lich, you would think the TES Lich was not a true Lich at all would you as it does not follow the general depiction of one.

Same logic applies here, the creature known as a Vampire in TES is not a proper Vampire at all, proper Vampires do not get weaker from consuming blood, proper Vampires get stronger from it just like Lamae Bal's bloodline does.

That's not how vampirism works in TES. It's a disease, you consume blood to stave off the disease and remain more human...not consuming blood makes you more feral/hungry and lets the disease have more of an effect on you making you less human and more vampire with enhanced abilities. I'm pretty sure this is the same strain from oblivion and that's how it worked

This is not the strain from Oblivion, that was caused by Porphilic Hemophilia and functioned very differently.

We get infected by a Bloodfiend but we do not become a Noxiphilic Sanguivoria Vampire, it is directly stated in the quest that we cannot be turned due to being corrupted by Molag Bal, so we get sent by a Vampire from Lamae Bal's clan to go visit her where we go through a ritual and become a Blood Scion instead.

The creature we can become in ESO is a "True Vampire" who gets stronger from consuming blood and not weaker, Lamae Bal even states this to the player.

you're right, I forgot that what we have in eso is a newly created version of vampire to fit the mmo gameplay...this type of vampirism didn't exist in lore before or in any TES game so it's kinda pointless to debate a retconned mmo strain.

Xarico · March 2021

The amount of people who do not realize that the Oblivion model of vampirism did not exist in the series before, well, Oblivion is staggering.

Getting stronger from hunger was not a thing in either Morrowind or Daggerfall. This is not how "vampirism has always been" in TES.

waterfairy · March 2021

Xarico wrote: »

The amount of people who do not realize that the Oblivion model of vampirism did not exist in the series before, well, Oblivion is staggering.

Getting stronger from hunger was not a thing in either Morrowind or Daggerfall. This is not how "vampirism has always been" in TES.

That's because they didn't create vampire stages in game yet lol. If you wanna look at it from a strictly lore perspective then it's also acceptable to have a new strain in oblivion because it takes place after morrowind. The events in eso take place long before both games so they had to retcon a new form of vampire that's not from lore and doesn't make sense just to fit it to mmo style gameplay

Xarico · March 2021

Vigarr wrote: »

That's because they didn't create vampire stages in game yet lol. If you wanna look at it from a strictly lore perspective then it's also acceptable to have a new strain in oblivion because it takes place after morrowind. The events in eso take place long before both games so they had to retcon a new form of vampire that's not from lore and doesn't make sense just to fit it to mmo style gameplay

It's not only acceptable to have a different strain in Oblivion because it takes place after Morrowind (the chronological distance between the two is very small, anyway), it is also acceptable to have a different strain in Cyrodiil long before the events of TES III and at the time of TES III. That's precisely how it is lorewise.

This doesn't prove your point, however, but does the exact opposite by showing that different countries have different types of vampires, and one is not inherently more "correct" or "true" than another. "TES vampires" as a category don't have vampire stages and don't get stronger from hunger; several particular strains do. Daggerfall (game and region) bloodlines, in particular, descend from Lamae Bal and not from whoever is the progenitor of the Cyrodiil strain, and Daggerfall vampires are severely and potentially fatally weakened by hunger. Giving them the "stage" mechanic is as much of a retcon as the recent ESO change.

And yes, of course TES II and III don't have the ridiculous vampire stages because they weren't created yet. TES II and III also have actual attributes and diverse skill lines because they weren't axed yet. Innovation doesn't automatically equal improvement.

Kalle_Demos · April 2021

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vampires are a bit backwards when it comes to feeding, yes. They gave us an explanation why that is, but I feel it's a bit of a bummer that we don't get to experience vampirism the way 99% of vampires in Tamriel do. Lamae alchemically altered her bloodline so that it works different from how it does for other bloodlines, so that feeding makes you more monsterous instead of less.
From a in-universe logic standpoint that's kind of silly, because you get the benefits of vampirism (immortality) with little to none of the drawbacks (going insane from starvation, needing blood to avoid it). Now the whole moral dilemma they had going is gone. A good vampire can just decide to not drink blood and all they give up for that is power, but they get to keep the immortality anyway.
Mechanically it was introduced so people actually have a reason to feed, but since ZOS decided that vampires shouldn't be too powerful, most vampires want to stay at stage 1 at all times due to the drawbacks. It was also a bit easier to get to your desired stage of vampirism in the old system, because you could feed to lower vampirism and use vampire skills to increase your stage. That wasn't ideal either, but it was still better than being stuck at max stage with no other option to lower it than an expensive drink.
I would prefer if vampirism didn't penalize your regular skills but gave them some other drawback instead. By design vampirism is meant to supplement your class, unlike werewolf which basically replaces your class for the duration. So while I get that ZOS wants vampires to commit to vampirism instead of sleeping on it, their current take on them is still far from ideal.

As for Werewolf, I suppose what ZOS could have done instead of the nerf to werewolf durability, they could have made it more difficult to sustain transformation for short but decisive burst windows. But I like that Werewolves can sustain their form indefinitely as long as they stay in combat/have enemies to feed on, so that one doesn't bother me.
Seeing enemies through walls would be a nice touch though.

After knowing how much new stuff npcs get, id rather get their form of vampirism. They even get full vampire lord instead of a knockoff version of it.

Vampires having senses to see through walls is still accurate, but it really bothers me that werewolves don't have anything like it. Wolves are the ones who come to mind first when historically talking about strong senses.

Werewolves have never had the ability to see enemies through walls in ES.

Meanwhile vampires have. So, regardless of what comes to mind historically or not, that isn't how it is in ES.

That said, I think werewolves are in such a fantastic position here and they're so close to their single player variants.

Meanwhile vampires couldn't be further away. They're just awful.

The fact their whole gimmick is being low on HP is so stupid and the fact they didn't just give us a vamp lord transformation is even more stupid.

But they can smell people through walls. Making people visible through walls is just mechanically easier to implement than to have "scent trails" from from the direction of the nearest enemy.

Has this ever actually been in an ES game tho? Werewolves have never been able to detect people through an ability to my knowledge.

Werebeasts have had some form of detect life or detect humanoid in most previous ES games where they were featured.