HiImRex wrote: »

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno,

The no proc Cyrodil has been a lot of fun, and even though I'm one of the people that have been asking for a no proc PVP environment, I'm still surprised by how much more I enjoy Cyrodil's combat without proc sets. Now, I very much want to experience no proc ESO pvp in different environments. I'm sure I am not alone.

In a couple months, procs will return to Cyrodil. When this happens, it would be awesome for us to have a one time, 1 month no proc BG test. I anticipate that the benefits of no proc pvp will shine even brighter in the pure even numbered team fight environment offered by the BG, and it will be very enjoyable even for those who are currently skeptical of the idea.

1 month long, limited-set (pure stat sets only) BGs, with double AP and XP from bgs.

And when that test ends, maybe a 1 month long limited-set Imperial City test with double TV. That would be the cherry on top.

Hope you'll consider it.

That would destroy BGs for a lot of people who enjoy them for what they are. The current BG community on my server has, from what i can tell, entirely different priorities & needs ranging from deathmatch-only-queue to custom arenas (just to name a few). Ive not once heard any familiar BG veteran state that they want a no-proc BG test, quite the opposite to be honest.

This is the first patch where actually every playstyle is viable in nocp BGs (full stats, full procs, hybrid), yet you are running around demanding new limitations to suit your personal agenda.

I'm a BG regular, let me assure you, I WONT enjoy no proc environments for many reasons, most importantly because ZOS is now balancing the game for years with sets (they even said that they intend to do that some years back). Current class balance without access to all sets is absolutely terrible.

I dont want BG lobbies to be filled with 8+/12 magsorcs and rest stamina nerds. Anyone who played ESO since 2014 knows thats what happens when you empower stat based gameplay too much in eso - suddenly everyone is either a) a magsorc or b) generic stamina.

I would be curious if it would up Bg participation of all of the people who can’t be asked to do them due to the current meta. As it stands now it takes 2 games to hit top MMR and see the same “best” players on pc na. The scene is a ghost town.

It definitely would drive some people out of BGs, but it would actually bring a lot of people into battlegrounds, which is why I proposed it would be an interesting 1 time test.

In fact, turning procs back on in Cyro will drive a lot of players OUT of Cyrodil. Which is why timing the no proc BG at the same time would actually drive a pretty large group of people being pushed out of Cyrodil with procs being turned back on into BGs, making it an interesting test.

Couple counterpoints:

(1) limiting sets limit gameplay options

Not really, because a vast majority of the proc sets break the core gameplay design of ESO and limit the number of impactful choices you can make in any given pvp engagement. Simply put, proc set meta frontloads much of the decision making to "putting together the ultimate combination of sets that heal / kill for you," with the result that the real time combat itself plays out with less input from the players themselves.

ESO combat at its core is about decision making; managing your global cooldowns correctly to eek out an advantage over your opponents. Each global represents 1 decision you make vs. an opponent's decision in a complicated rock paper scissors. Over 10-20 globals, you snowball good decisions into a decisive advantage. Implicit in this trade is the idea that all the potential actions a player can take in any single global CD are balanced relative to each other. For example, a hard-hitting burst ability that sets up a stun is balanced by a channel time (dizzy swing) and the rule breaker version of this ability (surprise attack) is only allowed in order to give class identity (nightblades).

Outside of procs, the skill/class design actually follows this design philosophy quite consistently, to the point where you can look at a recording of a fight you won or lost and create a logical and reasonable narrative that led to the win or loss. Making inefficient trades by making the wrong decisions... misleading your opponent INTO making wrong decisions... taking a risk (letting your armor drop, going for the execute instead of refreshing your major brutality, etc) to secure a decisive victory... all of these function quite well in a stat-based environment, resulting in a fun and rewarding combat system with a high skill ceiling and a fair bit of variability when it comes to actually playing the game in real time.

Pretty much every proc set breaks this balance, making combat a chaotic, unreadable mess in which most of the outcome of a fight is made outside the combat, in choosing which set to wear. Proc sets adds off global ultimate level damage / heals, dots that can't be cleansed, stuns that can't be anticipated, etc.

The result is that dynamic and reactive decision making of the no proc combat is replaced by a static, frontloaded decision making largely consisteing of "what sets am I wearing and what sets is that guy wearing?"

Do I have the HPS check to survive this guy holding left click on my character? No? I better change my sets and shuffle my attributes.

Do I have the DPS check / resource sustain to outdamage this guy's set that heals him OFF global and without costing him resources? I better change my sets and shuffle my attributes.

Do I gank with Selenes and tank/sustain with Eternal Vigor?
Or do I gank with Syvarra's and tank/sustain with Engine Guardian?

Just because the shiny particle effects look and sound different, doesn't mean there are actual gameplay variety being created. In reality, proc sets create visual variety while severely limiting the scope of meaningful gameplay choices.

(2) class imbalance etc. etc.

Class imbalance exists but it's not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be on the forums.

When a class is played at a high enough level, every class is viable on its own AND brings something useful to the table, especially in a small scale team fight environment like BGs. (In fact, the incidental buffs and utility that each class brings to a team is emphasized when the sets are limited to stats, since so many of the proc sets are rule breakers that minimize the impact of buffs such as DKs providing minor brutality and leap.)

The perceived class imbalance has more to do with 2 elements which are minimized in a 4 v 4 small-scale team fight.

First, classes have situational imbalances. In other words, there are certain classes that excel in specific situations. Magsorcs open field with no LOS will crush. They're much less effective in chaotic close quarters combat, especially where ground has to be held. Nightblades are nearly unkillable with shade and cloak in certain situations, but throw in a gap closing templar or a smart DK with noxious and Leap and they're made of very sharp paper.

Second, some classes are very easy to play at a competent level. Any average player can jump on a stam necro or warden and feel like they're powerhouses, because so much of their power is loaded into their passives and class abilities. There's almost no wrong way to use arctic blast or shalk. Necros have incredible defense/sustain passives and the strongest burst heal in the game (mortal coil / resistant flesh). Sorcs are incredibly forgiving in terms of positioning and sustain because of streak and dark deal.

But in teamfights (not 1v1s) where all players are competent, a lot of the class imbalance disappears and the outcome is decided by the team that makes better decisions both individually and as a team. A team of 3 stamplars and a DK can absolutely crush a team of mag sorcs, stam wardens, and stam necros. And without procs, this becomes even more the case.

In other words, class imbalance is more about skill floors being too high (bad players jump on good classes and can compete with decent players), rather than skill ceilings (good players have a fair chance of winning on any class vs. any class).

This is fine. I think any game needs starter classes like werewolves (actually can we just delete these guys from the game? ) stamdens and stamcros. Anyway, there's always the final element here: there are class imbalances either way, so it's not an argument for or against.

I'd agree to this if they loosen it so the non-damaging buff sets that technically count as "proc sets" are still allowed, e.g necropotence.

There's a couple of very cancerous builds around in battlegrounds these days, I've seen a couple of near immortal stamdens doing the rounds for instance; but honestly I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you think procs are to blame. The fundamental imbalance of classes is more of a culprit.

I'd predict what we'd see is a lot of players assuming "Wow, no proc BGs? I'll be able to win now!", and then being very sorely mistaken when it turns out they still get their butts handed to them in BGs where there's no zerg or CP to carry them.

You act like there isnt a position desync and animation delays - there's no such thing as reactionary combat in PvP.

Only if they don't limit sets too much, if they just remove Zaan, Vateshran and others alike I'm all for it, hell, if they remove only all monster sets from BG, I will be fine even then, considering that monster sets are usually proc sets.

BG's have always been fine, and doesn't need this.
Thanks to no CP and equal team numbers people actually die

Canned_Apples wrote: »

I stopped playing them a while ago. I got really tired of seeing combat logs filled with nothing but proc sets.
You won’t find many people with proc sets in low mmr matches but once you hit the higher tier it’s nothing but proc sets.

That's my experience too...not a lot of fun...merciless/ Zaan/Vateshran plus various 5 pc combos....it's better than before but still very frustrating

StaticWave wrote: »

High mmr bgs are filled with the same people wearing the same 3-4 proc sets. It's a delusion to bring up "build diversity". It's an even bigger delusion to say that "all builds are equal now", when it is a fact that a good player wearing 3 proc sets will always beat a good player wearing full stats.

[snip]

Am I in some kind of bubble?

Maybe, I play Xbox NA, solo queue, high MMR. There, the players who perform the best are not wearing damage proc sets, except for several mag burst classes running caluurions. Maybe some of them are wearing healing procs that are harder to identify, but I highly doubt it.

Can any other Xbox NA BG players back me up here? Am I the only one who feels like the BG performance ceiling lies with stat sets, or at least mostly stat sets and perhaps one damage proc?

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

High mmr bgs are filled with the same people wearing the same 3-4 proc sets. It's a delusion to bring up "build diversity". It's an even bigger delusion to say that "all builds are equal now", when it is a fact that a good player wearing 3 proc sets will always beat a good player wearing full stats.

[snip]

Am I in some kind of bubble?

Maybe, I play Xbox NA, solo queue, high MMR. There, the players who perform the best are not wearing damage proc sets, except for several mag burst classes running caluurions. Maybe some of them are wearing healing procs that are harder to identify, but I highly doubt it.

Can any other Xbox NA BG players back me up here? Am I the only one who feels like the BG performance ceiling lies with stat sets, or at least mostly stat sets and perhaps one damage proc?

HIGH MMR is plagued by procstacking