Serious Question: Can we just delete Stamden's from existence?

Saccopharynx · March 2021

Arctic Wind is a huge necessity for Warden Ice Tanks in PVE, so yes this would hurt in PVE.

Sergykid · March 2021

paid classes are the best classes, both pvp (more warden here) and pve (more necro here)

Seraphayel · March 2021

MissAethe wrote: »

Arctic Wind is a huge necessity for Warden Ice Tanks in PVE, so yes this would hurt in PVE.

The skill is just overloaded and needs to be toned down. It does too much at once. Direct heal, HoT, AoE damage, stun and chance to chill and apply status effects - no other skill in the game does so many things at once. Remove the heal or remove the CC and damage, there’s no other way to bring this skill in line. You can just split it into the two morphs so you have to choose between survivability and cc/damage.

iksde · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

MissAethe wrote: »

Arctic Wind is a huge necessity for Warden Ice Tanks in PVE, so yes this would hurt in PVE.

The skill is just overloaded and needs to be toned down. It does too much at once. Direct heal, HoT, AoE damage, stun and chance to chill and apply status effects - no other skill in the game does so many things at once. Remove the heal or remove the CC and damage, there’s no other way to bring this skill in line. You can just split it into the two morphs so you have to choose between survivability and cc/damage.

it is funny how this skill is overloaded in class for which you have pay in order to play it while literally every other free classes in some patches was getting so huge homogenization of skills making all these classes almost just an same thing but with differet effects, colour of skills (split healing and damage between morphs in templar ritual, NB dark patch, DK cinder storm; split in morphs between CC's and damage etc etc....we could just name almost every if not every skill from free classes)

Hurbster · March 2021

And this is why skills in pvp and pve need to be separate. I try and avoid pvp at all costs and would rather my wardens were not changed.

Sylvermynx · March 2021

Hurbster wrote: »

And this is why skills in pvp and pve need to be separate. I try and avoid pvp at all costs and would rather my wardens were not changed.

Completely agree.

ghost_bg_ESO · March 2021

Cool.... after last patch i've had one character in PvE that doesn't require more additional "repairs" and it will be on top of the nerf wave from PvP. murphy's law.

Saccopharynx · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is just overloaded and needs to be toned down. It does too much at once. Direct heal, HoT, AoE damage, stun and chance to chill and apply status effects - no other skill in the game does so many things at once. Remove the heal or remove the CC and damage, there’s no other way to bring this skill in line. You can just split it into the two morphs so you have to choose between survivability and cc/damage.

I can see the issue in PVP, but in PVE all of those things are useful to me as a tank:

For one, it's more reliable and immediate to me than the green balance skills are. Since it scales on Max Health (and I'm sitting at 55k buffed), it is a serious clutch when I'm taking nasty hits and my healer is trying to keep the DPS alive. It's immediate on top of the continued additional healing over time.
For two, the AoE frost damage is a huge win for me when I'm add-stacking nonsense my DPS isn't burning down. A lot of the times I'm dragging in handfuls of higher leveled adds, not the little squishy ones, so that damage helps me a ton. Plus it procs both of my sets to apply extra damage due to it having an AoE.
Arctic Blast does a Stun (great for huge add pulls) where Polar Wind does not (it heals an ally instead). I actually use Polar Wind, as I would rather trade a stun for healing someone in a dungeon in a "Oh snap" moment over stunning things around me, since the base skill already does AoE anyway and everything else I'm throwing down also stuns.

So the thing is, the morphs are already split. Polar Wind doesn't stun at all, it's just an AoE frost damage and heal. Arctic Blast is the stun, but it sacrifices team utility. The issue in PVP is the Blast morph, not the actual base skill itself as the base skill and other morph don't stun whatsoever.

There isn't really a solution here to fix that problem without getting rid of one of the morphs for the skill, or maxcapping allowed health pools in PVP (lower health, less effectiveness to the skill).

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

ghost_bg_ESO wrote: »

Cool.... after last patch i've had one character in PvE that doesn't require more additional "repairs" and it will be on top of the nerf wave from PvP. murphy's law.

Honestly most of us would prefer if they buffed the other classes rather than nerf wardens, but right now the PvP situation is making the imbalance of classes so blatant.

Or they could balance PvP and PvE separately so that we no longer have to worry about each part of the game potentially causing issues for the other.

Sylvermynx · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

ghost_bg_ESO wrote: »

Cool.... after last patch i've had one character in PvE that doesn't require more additional "repairs" and it will be on top of the nerf wave from PvP. murphy's law.

Honestly most of us would prefer if they buffed the other classes rather than nerf wardens, but right now the PvP situation is making the imbalance of classes so blatant.

Or they could balance PvP and PvE separately so that we no longer have to worry about each part of the game potentially causing issues for the other.

Now THAT I can agree with. Over the years I've played MMOs, I cannot even count the number of times a class that was my favorite got mangled because of "considerations outside of pve".

Raegwyr · March 2021

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

We are still waiting for your input dude, please teach us how to counter stamden kit as magdk where they can purge dots without using resources or as magblade where my entire burst combo can be mitigated by one roll dodge and i need to stack 3 heals to match your one hot that also stun, deal damage and have burst healing component.

We can clearly see that magdk or magblade are too op but i'm not pvp pro so enlight me how i can beat class as weak as stamden

Vetixio · March 2021

iksde wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

More natural HP, natural minor toughness, % heal.

Shouldn't be surprised most stamdens desire high HP. Kit encourages it.

and before ZOS cutted off some nice buffs from templar and dk to give it into warden like healing buffs

Yep ZOS gutted a ton of Templar and DK abilities/unique effects/passives only for Warden to get them all. But totally not P2W right

techyeshic · March 2021

I actually like playing MagDK right now and might run some stamDK for a mixup. I'd say for MagDK; the cost of abilities is my biggest pain point. But if you gave MDK an execute, and stamdk a whip; what would be the difference between the 2? Green vs red graphics? Thats not to say that they seem to pale in comparison to warden; but when a class has all the tools....

Kurat · March 2021

Typical pvp thread. I got killed by x class/race/build, asking x to be nerfed.
Tomorrow I get killed by y class/race/build, I'll ask y to be nerfed. Lmao

Every class doesn't have to be excactly the same to be balanced. DK doesn't have class purge but they have other things that warden lacks. Just learn to use them. And if you really need you can use the purge skill from alliance skill line.
Warden has no reliable class stun or gap closer and no class major breach even.

And if you think that they gonna nerf wardens because you complain then think again. Warden and necro are both behind paywall, theres no way they would make them even an average classes. They are definitely on top but not op. It's just business, accept it and l2p.

Joy_Division · March 2021

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

3. Evaluate the relative strength of stamdens since their introduction to the game in comparison to the other classes across the same period of time. Then, ascertain whether or not there is a constant difference or just the fluctuations expected from patch to patch.

Stamdens have been top tier since the day it was introduce, something only a stamina necromancer comes even close to rivaling.

Yes, I can counter these specs, but it's a PITA to always hand an opponent the advantage and feeling like you have a knife at a gun-fight. There is a reason why most players seek to use their best skills, eat food, use potions, spend a small fortune on their rigs/mouse/monitors/etc: because they want to win.

The OP is going to be pretty disappointed if they ever get their stam whip and execute and still find themselves at a disadvantage because those two things - a good spammable and an execute - are readily available for them via a 2H weapon, even if that's not how they want those things.

Stamdens and Stamcros are going to forever be top tier for a few reasons, but mostly because ZOS designed them differently from the other classes.

The original classes were designed with multi-faceted and potent skills meant for versatility, customization, and unique effects that simply weren't available from anywhere else in the game.

Somewhere along the way, ZOS decided this approach was bad, and instead decided that skills ought to have specific (as opposed to varied) functions that had effects that could be accessed elsewhere in the game. And so they completely changed many of the original classes skills to fit this approach, which was the equivalent of forcing a square peg into a round hole. Meanwhile, the new classes were designed with this in mind, so their passives, abilities, and effects were all coherent and built from the ground up according to ZOS's new vision. Moreover, the new classes were all given things that were no-nos at launch (stamina skills, stamina based heals, stealing other class's supposed unique effects, etc.). Add to that the fact that stamina classes have 4 weapons to choose from (one will always invariably be good) whereas mag only has one (which has never been more than average), means these two will always been monsters, no matter the meta, CP/no CP, procs or no procs, etc.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

Kurat wrote: »

Typical pvp thread. I got killed by x class/race/build, asking x to be nerfed.
Tomorrow I get killed by y class/race/build, I'll ask y to be nerfed. Lmao

Every class doesn't have to be excactly the same to be balanced. DK doesn't have class purge but they have other things that warden lacks. Just learn to use them. And if you really need you can use the purge skill from alliance skill line.
Warden has no reliable class stun or gap closer and no class major breach even.

And if you think that they gonna nerf wardens because you complain then think again. Warden and necro are both behind paywall, theres no way they would make them even an average classes. They are definitely on top but not op. It's just business, accept it and l2p.

This response shows that you didn't read much in to this thread properly. We weren't talking about issues with a DK Purge. The issue is that by design a MagDK is a DoT based class (ZOS' own words) and the fact that it's impossible currently to pressure a Stamden because they have access to a free purge on demand.

Anyone with more than 3 brain cells can currently see that the balance is so far skewed for classes right now. And to reiterate, I would be much happier if they buffed the struggling classes, not nerf the Stamden.

volkeswagon · March 2021

That's not possible. Still waiting for them to make pvp and pve completely seperate. Seperate skills, gear and characters. Then they can accurately balance it without destroying its effects in pve. So if you try to take a pve toon into pvp it says not compatible

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

3. Evaluate the relative strength of stamdens since their introduction to the game in comparison to the other classes across the same period of time. Then, ascertain whether or not there is a constant difference or just the fluctuations expected from patch to patch.

Stamdens have been top tier since the day it was introduce, something only a stamina necromancer comes even close to rivaling.

Yes, I can counter these specs, but it's a PITA to always hand an opponent the advantage and feeling like you have a knife at a gun-fight. There is a reason why most players seek to use their best skills, eat food, use potions, spend a small fortune on their rigs/mouse/monitors/etc: because they want to win.

The OP is going to be pretty disappointed if they ever get their stam whip and execute and still find themselves at a disadvantage because those two things - a good spammable and an execute - are readily available for them via a 2H weapon, even if that's not how they want those things.

Stamdens and Stamcros are going to forever be top tier for a few reasons, but mostly because ZOS designed them differently from the other classes.

The original classes were designed with multi-faceted and potent skills meant for versatility, customization, and unique effects that simply weren't available from anywhere else in the game.

Somewhere along the way, ZOS decided this approach was bad, and instead decided that skills ought to have specific (as opposed to varied) functions that had effects that could be accessed elsewhere in the game. And so they completely changed many of the original classes skills to fit this approach, which was the equivalent of forcing a square peg into a round hole. Meanwhile, the new classes were designed with this in mind, so their passives, abilities, and effects were all coherent and built from the ground up according to ZOS's new vision. Moreover, the new classes were all given things that were no-nos at launch (stamina skills, stamina based heals, stealing other class's supposed unique effects, etc.). Add to that the fact that stamina classes have 4 weapons to choose from (one will always invariably be good) whereas mag only has one (which has never been more than average), means these two will always been monsters, no matter the meta, CP/no CP, procs or no procs, etc.

The stam whip is something we've wanted since day 1 as stam DK gets pigeonholed in to either using a DoT skill as their spammable, or being stuck with weapon skills, which can make many toons feel too similar.

And yeah, while it's true that Stamden and Necro were designed differently, the current gulf in balance could be reduced if ZOS would revert some changes to specific classes or buff some underperforming classes.

finehair · March 2021

Lose the purge, nerf the arctic blast, remove free cast of sub assault
It would be somewhat "balanced" then

Seraphayel · March 2021

MissAethe wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is just overloaded and needs to be toned down. It does too much at once. Direct heal, HoT, AoE damage, stun and chance to chill and apply status effects - no other skill in the game does so many things at once. Remove the heal or remove the CC and damage, there’s no other way to bring this skill in line. You can just split it into the two morphs so you have to choose between survivability and cc/damage.

I can see the issue in PVP, but in PVE all of those things are useful to me as a tank:
For one, it's more reliable and immediate to me than the green balance skills are. Since it scales on Max Health (and I'm sitting at 55k buffed), it is a serious clutch when I'm taking nasty hits and my healer is trying to keep the DPS alive. It's immediate on top of the continued additional healing over time.

For two, the AoE frost damage is a huge win for me when I'm add-stacking nonsense my DPS isn't burning down. A lot of the times I'm dragging in handfuls of higher leveled adds, not the little squishy ones, so that damage helps me a ton. Plus it procs both of my sets to apply extra damage due to it having an AoE.

Arctic Blast does a Stun (great for huge add pulls) where Polar Wind does not (it heals an ally instead). I actually use Polar Wind, as I would rather trade a stun for healing someone in a dungeon in a "Oh snap" moment over stunning things around me, since the base skill already does AoE anyway and everything else I'm throwing down also stuns.

So the thing is, the morphs are already split. Polar Wind doesn't stun at all, it's just an AoE frost damage and heal. Arctic Blast is the stun, but it sacrifices team utility. The issue in PVP is the Blast morph, not the actual base skill itself as the base skill and other morph don't stun whatsoever.

There isn't really a solution here to fix that problem without getting rid of one of the morphs for the skill, or maxcapping allowed health pools in PVP (lower health, less effectiveness to the skill).

I mean yes, the skill is useful, because it’s so overloaded and does so many things at the same time. There’s no debate that it’s useful, the point is that it’s too useful because it just does too much at the same time. It‘s damage plus healing plus cc all build in one skill, which is at least one thing too much. I understand that people don’t want to give up on a skill that’s so good, but exactly that is the core problem with it, especially when compared to other classes and their toolkit.

AyaDark · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Even in this no proc meta, currently all I find in PvP is gangs of sorcs or groups of 35k+ health Stamdens. Now, rather than asking ZOS to do sensible things like buff other classes so they're on a somewhat equal footing (MagDK's have been waving that neon sign for like years now), can we instead just nuke them from orbit? lol

No Proc PvP is even more imbalanced right now because ZOS thought it a wonderful idea to give a burst damage class (Warden) an easy way to purge DoT's, making the DoT classes you point blank REFUSE to give an execute to highly ineffective in this meta.

Or ZOS could like, you know actually buff specific classes so that PvP may actually be something fun if you think only playing Stamden or Sorc is boring as hell.

Again though, ZOS made a snap decision on a whim and now we all have to deal with this for 3 months because ZOS never considers consequences or balance. THANKS

#STAMWHIP
#DKCLASSEXECUTE
#NUKESTAMDENSFROMORBIT

"IT IS SKILLED PVP" - where some players abuse bugs and others can not do nothing to them.

Broken target abusing, hard desbalance(bad balance), broken skills, but they turn of SETS, becouse they find that it do not make server perfomance bad, they test it for - but PEOPLE want it.

What people ? Who abuse bugs and play sorcs ?

Other people who play other classes are not people ?

Purpose was test perfomance to start with !

Not to turn of sets or make some people happy and some unhappy !

iksde · March 2021

Vetixio wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

More natural HP, natural minor toughness, % heal.

Shouldn't be surprised most stamdens desire high HP. Kit encourages it.

and before ZOS cutted off some nice buffs from templar and dk to give it into warden like healing buffs

Yep ZOS gutted a ton of Templar and DK abilities/unique effects/passives only for Warden to get them all. But totally not P2W right

I have never told it is not P2W but everyone using this say it is not, since beggining when ZOS started nerfed DK and templar just to give what they have took out of them to warden it annoyed me, bothered and later some more for necro

Rukia541 · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

There is: Use Battle Spirit as a way to balance PvE and PvP separately so that a nerf in one doesn't affect the other, but ZOS have said they don't like the idea of separate balancing

Every dev claims they don't like the idea of separate balancing, even tho its literally the only way to balance the game and only hurts the game the longer it takes them to do it. Devs are just cowards., this needs to be a thing in EVERY mmo.

My favorite dev argument is they don't want people "confused" by 2 different actions from the same spell in 2 different modes. Lmao. Do you think pvpers are this dense bruh? The real reason they don't do it is it actually would take effort and they would actually have to assign a developer to pvp in order to change the skills.

madrab73 · March 2021

Won't be deleted as long as class is pay2win. I play Warden in PVP almost every night so not hating. Just nead to be realistic about income streams.

Grianasteri · March 2021

Serious Question: Can we just delete Stamden's from existence?

This is clearly not a serious question.

That is all, you may go about your business.

Rowjoh · March 2021

Wardens are pig ugly with that hideous half formed foetus flapping around still attached to its umbilical cord.

Makes me want to gag every time I see one.

So for that reason, and that reason alone, they should all be deleted from existence.

Vermintide · March 2021

I don't know why everyone acts as though it's impossible to tone down PVP performance without affecting PVP. One group of players is always whining about how improving things for the other group of players would hurt them, without realising the selfish irony of that statement. If it's so impossible, then tell me. How did they manage to nuke my magblade all the way down from A tier to garbage tier in PVP, without affecting PVE strength at all?

Anyway, I'd agree with OP's backhanded point that buffing other underperforming classes, rather than nerfing strong ones, is the way to go. Stamdens are pure dirt at the moment in BGs as well as Cyro, and despite the cries of L2P, just counter it... What counter. The only effective counter is refusing to engage them.

Seraphayel · March 2021

Yes, I would like to know how to counter Stamden or Stamcro as a Magicka build.

Bring a group is not a counter as that seems to be the only argument on how to deal with the overperforming Stamina builds in PvP.

LightYagami · March 2021

It's a PAID class. All about PROFIT.

Grandchamp1989 · March 2021

For the netch:

A.If you remove the cleanse and sustain it hurts PVE Tank
B. If you remove the brutality/sorcery it doesn't hurt as much for PVE Tank

For the Heal:
A. If you remove the health based heal it hurts PVE tanks
B. If you remove the dmg/stun it doesn't hurt as much for PVE tank.

Ideally you want to balance through Battle Spirit but if that isn't possible.. Go with Option B.
If you destroy Option A nobody will use PVE Warden Tanks again and there's no good option to pick it over a DK.

The cleanse, Sustain and Best Tank heal is what Warden Tank excel at.
DK got the mag Chain, Stagger and group shield
NB Tanks got Major Evasion and minor resolve in one skill and will get Major Resolve with their heal
Templar Tanks are the only class that can reliably AOE taunt with Tormenter Set (Weak but still something)
Sorc Tanks get minor resolve and up to 40% extra block mitigation through a single skill and got cheaper ulti's
Necro Tank got AOE Rez, probably best sustain and access major vulnerability

This is about the only unique thing between the classes when it comes to Tanking that's how uniform they've all become.