ESO PVP Meta and possible solutions.

Andrezs · March 2021

Hey everyone, this is my first post here in the forums, I made an account specifically for this, due to possible balancing options I've been thinking about regarding the current meta.
PVP is kind of broken right now, I think most of the long term PVP players can agree, and many would like a change in direction.
Some of us have "adapted" and we joined the meta, just because we are tired of getting punished by not using proc sets, others of us like getting hurt (and probably require therapy), and others have just decided to stop PVPing in general.

Some may disagree with this post, thinking proc sets are balanced, and honestly I don't see how they are, you're probably just reaping the benefits of the state of imbalance.
Here are POSSIBLE proposed changes, Id like to hear what everyone thinks, or maybe I'm completely wrong, who knows.

1) Malacath band no longer applies bonus to proc sets. This is probably the most popular/common solution I've seen around, and I totally agree. Back in One Tamriel when we got the first proc pandemic, they critted, it was broken. Crit was removed, stuff went back to normal (kinda). Malacath just buffs the damage of something that is basically FREE damage. Which takes me to my other point

2) Proc set damage should be based on spell or weapon damage (or also stamina/ magicka?): Why? So that people dont stack max health and resistances while also managing to deal out reliable, massive burst at the click of a button. Other people, balance out their stats, try to get decent damage values at the sacrifice of some resistance or health. But no, since proc sets dont scale with damage/stamina or magicka, they can basically dump all their points into HP, get massive resistances, and still deal incredibly considerable damage.

Another option for this is (if proc set damage doesn't scale with normal damage), is simply to overall reduce proc set damage. Stacking HP brings me to my next point:

3) Max health based builds: this creates the meta trifecta, high health, high resistances, very decent damage, and now heals that are based of max health. You have everything, you can heal yourself almost half of your HP because you have 30-45k max HP, you're not even sacrificing your heals. Proposed solution? Multiple.
Radical: remove health based heals, switch it to stamina or magicka, this way, if you're stacking procs with high health, at least you'll have hard time healing yourself, and that is balance.

Not so radical solution: 2 options
Make health based heals healing over time, so that you cant just top yourself off whenever you fee like it.
Make health based heals require casting, sort of like dark conversion.

These are my suggested options, I consider a combination of them could be applied to push the game in the right direction, because at the moment, this aint it.

I appreciate if you got this far! Please let me know what you think!

dem0n1k · March 2021

I assume from your post that you are not a PC player or PVPing in Imperial City? Coz atm on PC Cyrodiil, we have had a few weeks now of the 'no proc sets' test. It has definitely removed some burst potential from a lot of players.. unfortunately, the bad server performance is still noticable.

On your points...
1. I can't comment on mythics... I have no experience with them.
2. What proc sets have their damage based on health?
3. Specifically, what health based heals do you think are OP?

Andrezs · March 2021

I am a PC PVPer, and I made this post because just how amazing its been in the non-proc test environment.
With respect to 2: No procs have their damage based on health, in fact the problem is that their damage is not based on anything (not affected by weapon or spell damage) which is why people can BUILD for max health without damage downsides (since their damages come from procs).

3: Werewolf health based heal and stamden artic blast are two examples. if they were stam or magicka based heals, they would be really affected by building for max health, resulting in a decrease in 40k HP stamden/werewolves with proc builds (Also looking at necro).

El_Borracho · March 2021

I don't do a ton of PVP, but here's my takeaway. If you made a health cap under proposal #3, wouldn't that force people to put more CP/skill points into magicka/stamina, which would lead to more damage under proposal #2? Which would mean people would wear a high armor value heavy set with a set that gives pure damage increases and a burst proc damage 5th piece. So the damage set would then govern what set is most important, as health and resistances are limited to a hard cap. Which would lead to a very, very narrow meta.

Currently, I don't agree that there is a "meta" in PVP in the same way there are meta min/max builds in PVE. There are hundreds of builds you can viably run in PVP. Look no further than YouTube. While there are classes and sets that are outperforming others, it has always been that way in PVP. Gankers, bombers, werewolves, nightblades, sorcs, necros, templars, Earthgore, Zaan + Elf Bane (a past favorite of mine), Spell Strat, 7th Legion, the list is endless. All have had their time at the top at some point. All have been nerfed or changed or buffed. All get replaced by something else. Its the nature of PVP. A change this radical would eliminate most of that diversity.

Again, my experience with PVP is probably less than yours, but that's my impression.

Andrezs · March 2021

I never proposed health caps, point 3 proposes changes to health based heals, with 3 possibilities, either complete removal (which is probably too radical), changing all health based heals into Heal over times, or making them cast time dependent (like dark conversion).

Regarding another point you mentioned, there are no heavy sets that would really give you more damage than a medium armor damage set, and the only reason that they currently are giving high damage are the proc sets.

Now, if proc sets were scaled of damage (spell, weapon, whatever), even a heavy armor proc set would mean that they wouldnt be able to build into max health to make the most of their set, which I think is a good tradeoff.

El_Borracho · March 2021

Andrezs wrote: »

I never proposed health caps, point 3 proposes changes to health based heals, with 3 possibilities, either complete removal (which is probably too radical), changing all health based heals into Heal over times, or making them cast time dependent (like dark conversion).

Regarding another point you mentioned, there are no heavy sets that would really give you more damage than a medium armor damage set, and the only reason that they currently are giving high damage are the proc sets.

Now, if proc sets were scaled of damage (spell, weapon, whatever), even a heavy armor proc set would mean that they wouldnt be able to build into max health to make the most of their set, which I think is a good tradeoff.

I implied a health cap as a HOT would effectively be a health cap. If you can't burst heal a percentage of your health, then there would be less incentive to build for high health as a HOT would limit the ability to get to max health instantly. It would be similar to a PVE DPS build where all you have to do is get over a threshold to avoid most heavy attacks, i.e. 20K health. Therefore, you would put those stats into damage or healing or resistances instead.

Or, the reverse would be a land of health tanks swatting each other with wet noodles as players would overbuild for health and resistance due to no burst heals. Which would be exceedingly boring.

I agree, most medium/light armor sets are better for damage. However, there are sets like Crimson and Fury which are heavy and provide good damage. But again, this is where my experience is lacking. i was speaking more to a limit to healing forcing players to wear a heavy armor/health set to mitigate damage with the corresponding medium/light damage set. We do this already, but it would narrow the scope of heavy sets you could use, making the focus more on armor than the health-heavy buff sets.

Andrezs · March 2021

Thank you for your input Borracho. The thing is that from a PVP point of view, there are too many high HP, high damage characters because they also get increased survivability from those massive HP based heals, and as you mentioned in your most recent comment, by making health based heals HOTs, this would make people think twice about just speccing into health, and instead using more stamina based heals like vigor or rally (requiring more points in these attributes), therefore decreasing all these incredibly tanky, high health, proc based PVPers

Edit: And with regards to Crimson and Fury, if they were weapon/spell damage/ max stam/magicka based, people would have to spend points or enchantments into these stats to keep them effective, reducing their max HP and their capability to build resistances (but since these are heavy sets they still will have them higher than medium/light armor), resulting in a very healthy tradeoff IMO.
Because as mentioned previously, in my eyes, in PVP, there is no tradeoff for the proc set users, they are getting the best of all worlds, high health, high resistances, high damage, and this is what needs to be fixed (and thanks to some classes like stamden, necro or being wolf, high sustain).

El_Borracho · March 2021

@Andrezs It definitely would. It might have the effect of bringing back bombers and gankers, which I see PVPers on these boards absolutely love

Again, PVP is not my main, so I don't deal with a lot of the intricacies most PVPers do. I will say, I like the proc sets. But then again, I'm usually running around in one of those high damage, high resistance proc-set builds: a werewolf in Crimson and Alessian Order. And was running around as a stamblade in Fury and 7th before that. Despite those, I died on the regular, because again, PVP isn't my main thing.

Fact of the matter is, if you make PVP harder by limiting heals, I think you'll chase a lot of casuals away without really benefitting the hard core PVPers. Given the trade, I think it might be better to keep heals as is.

Andrezs · March 2021

Thank you Borracho!

erio · March 2021

Health based builds are never a good idea, and we can see that with 35k hp stamdens. I wish zos would balance that

ssewallb14_ESO · March 2021

Nerfing max health heals is pointless and will adversely affect PvE.

These were in the game for years without being a problem until the malacath proc meta.

The problem isn't that you can heal for a lot with 45k health, it's that you can have 45k health and still have damage by stacking proc damage and ignoring base stats.

Andrezs · March 2021

I agree with you but partly ssewallb, in what way would it affect PVE exactly? Higher health characters are tanks, which should be relying on their high resistances and healers to stay alive, they could still use HOTs health based heals if need be, as one of the proposed solutions.

The most affected ones would be tanks, but I think its not that bad.
Then again, I dont have experience tanking in endgame PVP content, so I could be wrong.