Is it not interesting.

Eldain333 · February 2021

Is it not interesting how you are NOT supposed to have fun in games today.

I do not know about you, but myself, i am an old gamer.. i remember Pong, Pac Man, Space Invader and many other very very early games.
And playing them on Vic-20.. and commodore-64... and later Amiga-500, and TONS of games coming out in all shapes and forms... Populus, James Pond, Dragons Lair, Eye of the Beholder, Moonstone, and lets not forget to mention all the precursors to today mmo games....The old D&D games like: Death Knight of Krynn... Pool of Radiance...Silver Blades... etc etc.

AND ALSO... Lets not forget, ARENA - DAGGERFALL. The first Elder Scroll.

They all had 2 things in common.
1: FUN!!!!. This was THE most important attribute they focused on.
2: There were NO in game shops, NO microtransactions to ruin the game... [snip] (in game shops can done, if only for appearance/cosmetics).

Daggerfall, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.
Morrowind, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!... create your own spell that breaks the game... FUN!!!!!.
Oblivion, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.

[snip]

There are a few games that are very very interesting, where the players are heard.
*League of Legends. Free to play... making billions... Many champions are actually made by players... microtransactions are cosmetics.
*Skyrim. Game is still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout 4. also a game still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout New Vegas. old game, but still alive because of the player community and their mods.

You would think that this would PROVE, that you should listen to the player community, and that there are some very good ideas on how to improve the game.
And still i have seen posts about ESO that are several years old... ignored... even if they have good ideas.
This is also one of the reasons why LoL are making billions, and ESO are only making a few millions.

And yes, if you wonder... i am 40+... so i have seen the corruption spread in the game industry.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

SeaGtGruff · February 2021

You don't need to subscribe to ESO Plus or buy anything from the in-game Crown Store to play ESO after you buy it.

If you want to play an expansion that you didn't purchase, you'll need to either buy it from an outside-of-game store (if it's the latest Chapter), or buy it from the in-game Crown Store (if it's a DLC or older Chapter) or subscribe to ESO Plus.

But most of the other things that are for sale in the in-game Crown Store are non-essential "content" that has no "gameplay" importance other than to be fun-- things like pets, mounts, costumes, emotes, and even houses.

Note that I said "most of," because a few things in the Crown Store do have a certain amount of "gameplay" value, although they still aren't essential to gameplay.

Anyway, the thing about the single-player games is that they're usually designed to be played until you beat them and then put aside so you can buy and play the next game in the series. While they're still in their "heyday" they may have expansions made for them, which generally must be purchased, such as Morrowind's Tribunal and Bloodmoon expansions, or Oblivion's and Skyrim's expansions.

But MMOs that are designed to be played for several years after their initial release are different, because the players expect the games' servers to remain online for many years, and expect new content to be released for the games, so there need to be ways for the companies to pay for the actual servers, for the continuous online service, for the perennial development and support and marketing and administrative teams associated with the games, etc.

nukk3r · February 2021

So are you saying that running a business like a business is bad? If you don't like the product, you have a right to choose a different one.

colossalvoids · February 2021

No one can disagree about cash shop for sure, but fun is a slippery one as you should define it at least, as for some it's questing, flower picking or else and for others it's the most competitive and demanding stuff. Both sides suffering in some aspects surely but I doubt that we would play this game if it wasn't fun in any way.

Mythreindeer · February 2021

It was inevitable really. As gaming became increasingly popular and the tech evolved to bring it to millions, big money enters the equation and that's that. I'm a 50+ gamer for what it's worth and eagerly spent all my quarters at the arcades of the 1980's.

I was thinking this morning, however, how there are so few games right now with reasonable pricing, performance and integrity. This too is inevitable as the games grow larger in development costs, 10s to even 100 million plus dollars and many years, that money is the prime focus whether it appears to be on the surface or not. ESO is pretty good, much better than many I think, but we may see in the years to come a focus on games smaller in scope and costs again that may bring back some of the pure fun.

Artorias24 · February 2021

An MMO has to be kept feeded money to be kept alive

Josira · February 2021

ehhh Mmo's are made to be manipulative,to pull you in and make you feel like you have to do x or y,rather then enjoy it.
sometimes fun can be had. but the times of old have long since passed. I wish it aint so too but..what can be done? one or two people saying "No. Boycott them" wont change a thing.
TES peaked at skyrim. the first edition of Skyrim. and Fallout peaked at FNV and Fallout 3.

I play this game because in the past,I had fun with PvP. but I usually just lurk on the forums and either talk too much,or just lurk and hope the next patch is better,in which it never is.
I also enjoy theory crafting off-meta builds. but thats been in a bad state since greymore.

if you want something decent to play that wont throw a cash shop at you,I suggest Divinity Original Sin 2.
Would even suggest getting into DnD but that can be costly if you dont know the right places to look.

As for your complaints about Forum Moderation...well..thats a...subject. Id rather not get in trouble again. I like browsing the forums. and leaving the occasional reply or *** joke.

Lugaldu · February 2021

I can only disagree. I have a lot of fun in ESO, I'm 40 too and therefore also know other games from the past without shops. Why should I pay any attention to the shop if I am not interested in it and why should it disturb me? If I want to get to see new regions, ok, then I'll buy a new chapter. In the past, we were used to buy a new game when we wanted to see something different/new.

Scardan · February 2021

What is fun for you, OP, was not fun for me.

JanTanhide · February 2021

Most of what you posted are single player games.

ESO is not a single player game and constantly grows. IDK about you but if I was working all the time to add content to an existing game and make changes I would need a paycheck to keep doing so. Therein comes the expansions and DLCs (or Subscription) as well as whatever people want to buy in the Crown Store to provide a paycheck to the employees and pay for the overhead (servers for instance).

I really don't understand this mentality of so many people that everything should be free. Someone has to work and make content and keep things going. That isn't free.

As for fun, I've been in ESO since the beginning and I always have fun. My interactions with the Crown Store are minimal. Most of my cosmetic items such as mounts have all been given in game either from Daily Login rewards or from stockpiling Gems (by turning in items from free login rewards) and using them for the special mounts.

Stahlor · February 2021

I have fun playing ESO and I'll stop immediately as soon as I don't have fun anymore. If you don't have fun - why do you play the game?

stewhead2ub17_ESO · February 2021

OP I am also a long time gamer who is 50+. [snip] "FUN" is subjective as are "GOOD IDEAS". The current business models favor in game stores & cash shops. However, you are not required to partake of these services. Computer gaming has become a popular hobby & logically people utilize the medium to make a profit. Nothing wrong with this. Games, & the cost of producing such games, has come a long way since the days of a couple guys coding in a basement. If you don't feel you get your $$ value from a product you are free to hold onto your $$.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Eldain333 · February 2021

Yes, i am very aware of running costs and such for MMOs.

But, there are better ways to get the money in, so you can develop more and dive deeper, and at the same time, keep a happy player base, and a good reputation while doing it.

Subscriptions are also perfectly ok... BUT, keep them low.
If it is low, people that take breaks from playing, will still have it running in the background.

1: Keep the price in store LOW... LOW = more people buying it. = more money.
2: ONLY have appearance / cosmetics in the store, and keep making more of them...its an RPG after all, AND keep them available at all times... do NOT remove them from time to time.
3: FFS, fix the mount system...remove the 20 hour CD...it is *** ***... Worst thing i have ever seen.
4: Encourage players to post ideas on the forum by actually having a real communication with the players!!!!!.
5: Specific made items IRL to sell on IRL store... i looked at Bethesda store, and i find it very weak.
6: Remove lottery loot crates... no one truly likes them, and make the items available in the hopefully cheaper store.
7: Have adds on their homepage... not massive things... small ones... that would bring a pretty bag of money.
etc etc.

Example: FAILED communication from developers. Werewolf and vampire.
Players have been posting ideas to make that side of the game deeper and better and more interesting for YEARS!!!!.
And then they made Greymoor DLC... a DLC made with no outside communication, heavily focused on werewolf and vampire.
You would think that this would make it better right... WRONG... they made things WORSE... because they did NOT listen to the community about what they want for the werewolf and vampire.
FFS.. even the NPCs have better skills and depths to them!!!!... Good luck getting money from the NPCs.
A complete and total failure.

And there are many many many other good ideas on these forums on how to improve the game.
NOT ONE of them have: "Oh, this is very interesting, i will make sure to pass this on so it gets look at, and please post more ideas on the subject"

OR better yet, if you see the developers actually getting involved and having communications back and forth.
*Dev: Ok this is the plan... ... ...
*Players: Ok, that looks interesting, but have you thought of making it like ... ... instead"
*Dev. Oh, we never saw that... very cool... And we also like the skill idea for ... ... That player ... ... made".

[snip]

and so on.
The whole thing is actually very simple if you look at it.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

ectoplasmicninja · February 2021

Having the crown store be a revolving door of time-gated items creates artificial scarcity and plays on fear of missing out which drives more people to impulse spend on items when they do return, because you don't know know they'll be back. Similarly I'm sure their marketing people have done enough research and have access to enough data that the math on a lower number of people buying higher priced items checks out in their favour. This is a massive company with a department of people who spend their time figuring out the best way to monetize the game, I'm pretty sure that their current approach is working for them.

As a player of course I would like to be able to buy anything I want all the time for a cheaper price, but I would be naive to think that my desires and ZOS' desires are going to be on the same financial page. Crown gifting was a great decision, and that's how I get almost all my crown store stuff now.

Plus it's not as easy as just implementing player feedback from the forums. People on the forums are a tiny fraction of the playerbase, and even here nobody ever agrees on anything. Catering to the opinions of 2% of your players is generally not a wise move. And there are intellectual property issues involved with taking plotlines or ideas for skill lines etc from someone else - if you have to involve lawyers and accountants it's probably not worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. I see some great ideas here and on Reddit and such, and we can all see places in ESO where the ball was really dropped in terms of immersion and consistency and coolness potential. But ultimately the game is what it is. It's an MMO with continuous operating and development costs and at the end of the day folks want to make profit on their product so there is monetization, and enough players spend their money that the current system is profitable.

JKorr · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

Is it not interesting how you are NOT supposed to have fun in games today.

I do not know about you, but myself, i am an old gamer.. i remember Pong, Pac Man, Space Invader and many other very very early games.
And playing them on Vic-20.. and commodore-64... and later Amiga-500, and TONS of games coming out in all shapes and forms... Populus, James Pond, Dragons Lair, Eye of the Beholder, Moonstone, and lets not forget to mention all the precursors to today mmo games....The old D&D games like: Death Knight of Krynn... Pool of Radiance...Silver Blades... etc etc.

AND ALSO... Lets not forget, ARENA - DAGGERFALL. The first Elder Scroll.

They all had 2 things in common.
1: FUN!!!!. This was THE most important attribute they focused on.
2: There were NO in game shops, NO microtransactions to ruin the game... [snip] (in game shops can done, if only for appearance/cosmetics).

Daggerfall, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.
Morrowind, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!... create your own spell that breaks the game... FUN!!!!!.
Oblivion, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.

[snip]

There are a few games that are very very interesting, where the players are heard.
*League of Legends. Free to play... making billions... Many champions are actually made by players... microtransactions are cosmetics.
*Skyrim. Game is still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout 4. also a game still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout New Vegas. old game, but still alive because of the player community and their mods.

You would think that this would PROVE, that you should listen to the player community, and that there are some very good ideas on how to improve the game.
And still i have seen posts about ESO that are several years old... ignored... even if they have good ideas.
This is also one of the reasons why LoL are making billions, and ESO are only making a few millions.

And yes, if you wonder... i am 40+... so i have seen the corruption spread in the game industry.

[snip]

Let's see....tape drives...5 1/4" floppy....3 1/2" not quite as floppy...pre-internet....dial up modem....1200 baud, 2400, 4800, and totally blazing at 9600 baud...while tying up a phone line....... hmmm.....Perhaps there was a reason that there were no immediate microtransactions. There were also no immediate patches. Some glitches are in those games to this day.

I played Morrowind, and loved it. And to keep it going I bought at full price Tribunal. Then I bought Bloodmoon, also at full price. So, no microtransactions, but still, for the full story arc, full price transactions.

Oblivion....seems you're forgetting this is when they offered, for fun because they told people it was cosmetic, horse armor. OMG microtransaction!!!!! But you said Oblivion was fun....

[snip] You are not forced to use the crown store for anything, including riding lessons. Were you here when the game released? Remember the riding system then? Please remember, this was before the crown store, when no one had any option other than hoard gold and spend time for their horse.... https://www.ign.com/wikis/elder-scrolls-online/Horses Or https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mounts#Deprecated_Mounts

You could have one horse, unless you bought more stable space. You had to decide the trait you wanted; if you wanted speed you had to buy the Gaited Horse and feed it apples and only apples. You wanted inventory space, you had to buy the Draft Horse and feed it oats. Each one was 47200 gold to buy. Would people have paid for the convenience of not slogging through quests paying 75 gold rewards to buy a finished horse in the crown store if they had the option?

I've criticized things about the game. I've asked for changes, I've said I absolutely detest certain parts of the game. I'm still here, still posting on the forum. [snip] When a thread is nothing but ranting and demands with not a lot of thought or coherence, they should shut down the thread. Personal insults should be right out as well. There are many people posting about aspects of the game they don't like, think are broken, and offering solutions, and they are all still here. Personally, I'm glad they ignore most/many of the suggestions on how to "fix" the game. Most of them would make me stop playing immediately. Players tend to focus on their special niche/aspect of the game, and "fixing" that might break a lot of other parts. The devs have to see the game as a whole; what might be super spectacular wonderland awesome for the pvp players would kill the game for the pvers, and the same in reverse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Curious_Death · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

Yes, i am very aware of running costs and such for MMOs.

But, there are better ways to get the money in, so you can develop more and dive deeper, and at the same time, keep a happy player base, and a good reputation while doing it.

Subscriptions are also perfectly ok... BUT, keep them low.
If it is low, people that take breaks from playing, will still have it running in the background.

1: Keep the price in store LOW... LOW = more people buying it. = more money.
2: ONLY have appearance / cosmetics in the store, and keep making more of them...its an RPG after all, AND keep them available at all times... do NOT remove them from time to time.
3: FFS, fix the mount system...remove the 20 hour CD...it is *** ***... Worst thing i have ever seen.
4: Encourage players to post ideas on the forum by actually having a real communication with the players!!!!!.
5: Specific made items IRL to sell on IRL store... i looked at Bethesda store, and i find it very weak.
6: Remove lottery loot crates... no one truly likes them, and make the items available in the hopefully cheaper store.
7: Have adds on their homepage... not massive things... small ones... that would bring a pretty bag of money.
etc etc.

Example: FAILED communication from developers. Werewolf and vampire.
Players have been posting ideas to make that side of the game deeper and better and more interesting for YEARS!!!!.
And then they made Greymoor DLC... a DLC made with no outside communication, heavily focused on werewolf and vampire.
You would think that this would make it better right... WRONG... they made things WORSE... because they did NOT listen to the community about what they want for the werewolf and vampire.
FFS.. even the NPCs have better skills and depths to them!!!!... Good luck getting money from the NPCs.
A complete and total failure.

And there are many many many other good ideas on these forums on how to improve the game.
NOT ONE of them have: "Oh, this is very interesting, i will make sure to pass this on so it gets look at, and please post more ideas on the subject"

OR better yet, if you see the developers actually getting involved and having communications back and forth.
*Dev: Ok this is the plan... ... ...
*Players: Ok, that looks interesting, but have you thought of making it like ... ... instead"
*Dev. Oh, we never saw that... very cool... And we also like the skill idea for ... ... That player ... ... made".

[snip]

and so on.
The whole thing is actually very simple if you look at it.

hi! they wont get that they re milk cows for new projects

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stewhead2ub17_ESO · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

Yes, i am very aware of running costs and such for MMOs.

But, there are better ways to get the money in, so you can develop more and dive deeper, and at the same time, keep a happy player base, and a good reputation while doing it.

Subscriptions are also perfectly ok... BUT, keep them low.
If it is low, people that take breaks from playing, will still have it running in the background.

1: Keep the price in store LOW... LOW = more people buying it. = more money.
2: ONLY have appearance / cosmetics in the store, and keep making more of them...its an RPG after all, AND keep them available at all times... do NOT remove them from time to time.
3: FFS, fix the mount system...remove the 20 hour CD...it is *** ***... Worst thing i have ever seen.
4: Encourage players to post ideas on the forum by actually having a real communication with the players!!!!!.
5: Specific made items IRL to sell on IRL store... i looked at Bethesda store, and i find it very weak.
6: Remove lottery loot crates... no one truly likes them, and make the items available in the hopefully cheaper store.
7: Have adds on their homepage... not massive things... small ones... that would bring a pretty bag of money.
etc etc.

Example: FAILED communication from developers. Werewolf and vampire.
Players have been posting ideas to make that side of the game deeper and better and more interesting for YEARS!!!!.
And then they made Greymoor DLC... a DLC made with no outside communication, heavily focused on werewolf and vampire.
You would think that this would make it better right... WRONG... they made things WORSE... because they did NOT listen to the community about what they want for the werewolf and vampire.
FFS.. even the NPCs have better skills and depths to them!!!!... Good luck getting money from the NPCs.
A complete and total failure.

And there are many many many other good ideas on these forums on how to improve the game.
NOT ONE of them have: "Oh, this is very interesting, i will make sure to pass this on so it gets look at, and please post more ideas on the subject"

OR better yet, if you see the developers actually getting involved and having communications back and forth.
*Dev: Ok this is the plan... ... ...
*Players: Ok, that looks interesting, but have you thought of making it like ... ... instead"
*Dev. Oh, we never saw that... very cool... And we also like the skill idea for ... ... That player ... ... made".

[snip]

and so on.
The whole thing is actually very simple if you look at it.

Everything you mentioned is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. But entirely subjective so you shouldn't present it as "fact". As an example: "1: Keep the price in store LOW... LOW = more people buying it."
Well what exactly is "low"? What is low for you may be high for me. The game is already BTP & everything else is optional.

"6: Remove lottery loot crates... no one truly likes them, and make the items available in the hopefully cheaper store."
the ongoing debate about loot crates notwithstanding, projecting your belief that "no one truly likes them" is a big assumption on your part, not backed by any actual facts. Also, creating a desire for limited time items is a marketing strategy, that is certainly within a company's right to engage in.
& on & on. I'm done with this topic. Best of luck in your travels.

SGT_Wolfe101st · February 2021

So just the other day my son was asking how much this games costs. I explained it isn’t as simple as that, base game, chapters, ESO+, etc. I started thinking and came up with about $750 total investment. He said wow, that much. I then went on to explain that my first achievement was in 2015 (console launch) and I have been playing this game for 6 years. If you take my total play time divided by total investment I am in for $0.25 an hour. I can’t think of too many activities one can do for a quarter. The store exists. If you don’t want to partake then don’t. As for the chapters and DLCs, development takes money, servers take money, it is naive for me to expect a $60 purchase 6 years ago would entitle me to everything forward. And for what it’s worth the base game is easily a 1000 hours if you go cradle to grave across the Cadwell’s silver and gold and everything else in the original 10-12 zones, along with all achievements, it’s likely more. Don’t like crates, don’t buy them, don’t like houses don’t buy them. You can avoid the shop and still enjoy the game.

Starlock · February 2021

You're absolutely right, @Eldain333 - your wisdom will be lost on many. I'm not sure which is most unfortunate - that major game developers (the ones usually called AAA developers) are making worse games because greed is driving game design, or that customers themselves have gotten so complacent to this trend that they'll actually defend it.

In fairness, the notion of games as a service is relatively novel, and there's a case to be made for those games being done differently. However, when development focuses on ways to manipulate customers into spending money, the game design and customer suffers for it. It's no secret that this game has a monetization problem. Any game that has no upper spending limit and hires monetization designers pretty much has a monetization problem. That's a game looking to play it's customers, when back in the day we used to just... I don't know, play games? I remember too.

I let ESO be my sole exception to boycotting games that play their players like this because certain members of the team do a fantastic job coming up with great stories and content. I still play sometimes, but as this game's monetization problem has only escalated over the past couple years, I'm done making exceptions. I'll certainly never make this costly mistake again with ZoS or any other game developer.

Alurria · February 2021

All this is a matter of opinion. It's your choice to spend money or not. In the end this is a business and money makes it run. I'm older than you OP and gaming has changed and evolved like everything. Don't get stuck in the past as long as they offer you the option to play free or not then it becomes YOUR choice to play free or not.

ZOS_ConnorG · February 2021

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for various rule violations. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Daemons_Bane · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

6: Remove lottery loot crates... no one truly likes them

Speak for yourself.. I like them, and want to keep them

Viewsfrom6ix · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Good ideas are subjective. Just because you think it is good, doesn't means it is good for the general population of a MMO.

vibeborn · February 2021

I personally still have plenty of fun with this game
And like others have mentioned; ESO+ plus anything from the crown store is completely optional and not a must have. So basically you could play base game (plus Morrowind), not use ESO+ and not buy anything from the crown store if that's what you wanted. Personally I want access to the whole game including DLC's and things like that cost money, but again it's optional.

Oh and ESO+ doesn't give you any upper hand when it comes to combat or progressing in the game, I'm a living proof of that

Kiralyn2000 · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

AND ALSO... Lets not forget, ARENA - DAGGERFALL. The first Elder Scroll.

They all had 2 things in common.
1: FUN!!!!. This was THE most important attribute they focused on.
2: There were NO in game shops, NO microtransactions to ruin the game... [snip] (in game shops can done, if only for appearance/cosmetics).

Daggerfall, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.
Morrowind, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!... create your own spell that breaks the game... FUN!!!!!.
Oblivion, did NOT have microtransactions, and were focused ONLY on making the game FUN. and it was fun!!.

As mentioned already - all those old games didn't even get patches most of the time. Because there were no patches, because there was no "online". So, yeah - they had no post-release content/support/shops/microtransactions/etc. Because those things couldn't exist.

Also, Oblivion was one of the first games to have microtransactions/DLC. Can you say "Horse Armor"?

*Skyrim. Game is still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout 4. also a game still alive, and only because of the player community and their mods.
*Fallout New Vegas. old game, but still alive because of the player community and their mods.

Because those are "normal" games - single player, produced/developed for a period of time, and then considered "done". So, yeah - they're being "kept alive" by mods & people playing them. Because they're regular games that are Done.
They're not MMOs, or Live Service games. MMOs are never "done", because the point of the genre is to continue. WoW started back in the "good old Nostalgia days" of "fun" games. And it's still going. Because that's the point of MMOs.

edit: and the crazy part? Kids these days are getting used to the whole "live service"/"endless Alpha" thing - I have games that followed the normal pattern (Release, DLC, DLC, Done!) and people keep posting "why aren't there more DLC? What do you mean DONE? Why has this game been abandoned!?!?!?" /sigh

You would think that this would PROVE, that you should listen to the player community, and that there are some very good ideas on how to improve the game.
And still i have seen posts about ESO that are several years old... ignored... even if they have good ideas.
This is also one of the reasons why LoL are making billions, and ESO are only making a few millions.

And yes, if you wonder... i am 40+... so i have seen the corruption spread in the game industry.

Not sure why you're holding up LoL as some great example, given that it's a live service game that never will be Done (until the servers are closed down, and everything people have bought goes up in smoke), and is piled with microtransactions.

Oh, and isn't Fun.

(what's that? "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder, and those early examples of games you held up as the example of "Games were Fun, now they're Not" might not have been fun for people back then? Huh.)

For the record - I'm 50, and I've been playing videogames since the 70's. Got an Apple II in 1979, played Ultima 1 & Wizardry 1. Plus all sorts of other stuff. Before that, I played the original Colossal Cave Adventure text game ("You're in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

) on an analog-modem thermal-printer terminal calling in to a Bell Laboratories mainframe. Are games different nowadays? Sure. Are they fun? Just as in the old days, some games are Fun, some games are Bad, and some games just aren't my taste. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.
(and I'm firmly of the opinion that most of what players ask for on game forums would be a mistake for the devs to do. "The customer is always right" is nearly always wrong.)

amm7sb14_ESO · February 2021

I agree with the overall premise, though not necessarily for the same reasons.

I tend to find that MMO's - and ESO is no exception - are built so heavily around things you *can't* do, rather than the things you *can* do.

Find a set with a really fun effect that you want to use for a unique build and playstyle? Can't use it, cuz it's not meta, so you can't bring it along in any high end group content.

Can't do x, y, or z thing because "balance"

Game mechanics to try to simulate challenge? Stop you from being able to actually play (stuns, immobilizes, and other mechanics that freeze your character)

I'm not so worried about the microtransactions because there are certainly in game microtransactions that I think are worth it, and ESO is one of the better games in terms of it not being pay to win, the vast majority of stuff is all cosmetic, and the things that are gameplay, still require you to earn it on another character before you can buy it (skyshards, skill lines, etc).

jaws343 · February 2021

Eldain333 wrote: »

Players have been posting ideas to make that side of the game deeper and better and more interesting for YEARS!!!!.

And there are many many many other good ideas on these forums on how to improve the game.
NOT ONE of them have: "Oh, this is very interesting, i will make sure to pass this on so it gets look at, and please post more ideas on the subject"

OR better yet, if you see the developers actually getting involved and having communications back and forth.
*Dev: Ok this is the plan... ... ...
*Players: Ok, that looks interesting, but have you thought of making it like ... ... instead"
*Dev. Oh, we never saw that... very cool... And we also like the skill idea for ... ... That player ... ... made".

There is probably a lot of liability involved with taking other's ideas from the forums and implementing them in game. It really isn't as simple as "Player X gave us this great idea."

tsaescishoeshiner · February 2021

To praise the business strategy of LoL, run by such a greedy company that they majorly target whales, gate what champions you can play behind paid unlocks, and artificially control the competitive scene to the point where they've banned players for choosing off-meta champions, puts the rest of this critique in perspective.

There are valid critiques of ESO's cash shop model here. I really enjoy the cosmetics and housing, but I wish that they were more affordable, more available, and that crates were less exploitative. Surely we can all agree on those? Maybe not?

Those other games you mentioned also mostly didn't have 4x yearly major content drops, and many woulda had microtransactions if there had been the technology or interest for them.

You might want to check out Larian Studios. They make ambitious games inspired by old school RPGs, and release a lot of free content post-release. While they're clearly very passionate, I do wonder about their work culture that they produce so much for free.

Kiralyn2000 · February 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Eldain333 wrote: »

Players have been posting ideas to make that side of the game deeper and better and more interesting for YEARS!!!!.

And there are many many many other good ideas on these forums on how to improve the game.
NOT ONE of them have: "Oh, this is very interesting, i will make sure to pass this on so it gets look at, and please post more ideas on the subject"

OR better yet, if you see the developers actually getting involved and having communications back and forth.
*Dev: Ok this is the plan... ... ...
*Players: Ok, that looks interesting, but have you thought of making it like ... ... instead"
*Dev. Oh, we never saw that... very cool... And we also like the skill idea for ... ... That player ... ... made".

There is probably a lot of liability involved with taking other's ideas from the forums and implementing them in game. It really isn't as simple as "Player X gave us this great idea."

And then there's the other issue - with a large enough forum population, you can have groups of posters enthusiastically supporting completely opposite ideas. So which "the players want it!" idea do the devs make?

fredthefrown · February 2021

I wouldn’t be willing to use a cash shop or buy expansions for any of the games you mentioned

Eldain333 · February 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

And then there's the other issue - with a large enough forum population, you can have groups of posters enthusiastically supporting completely opposite ideas. So which "the players want it!" idea do the devs make?

THAT is why you need to have a communication WITH the players... not just ignore them.