ZOS needs to kick in a compensation mechanic for dungeon weapons RNG

divnyi · February 2021

As of now, if you want a specific dungeon set weapon (weapons only drop from last boss or chests at small chance), your chances of getting it from boss is 1 in 13 item types / 3 set types / 2 (accessory or weapon). 1/13/3/2=0.0128

Now okay, you don't run alone, so it's 0.0128*4 = ~5.1%. So in average, you need 20 runs. A lot for the same content, but okayish for MMO, right?

Well, that's when RNG kicks in. You won't have all 4 160cp+ chars running a dungeon every time (it's 1-2 below in average), so double the number. And what about unlucky streaks? That's easily going well above 100 runs.

This isn't good. You might think this is what hold players in the game, but it's not. Players would rather acquire the item and play the harder content. Stuff like this is just discouraging and can cause players to leave a game at that point.

Ok, so what do I propose?

You have collection system, right? So you know exactly what items player is missing. Just make them acquire a new item from collection every N runs (N equals 3 sounds reasonable, but this is a variable). It won't lower number of runs to insanely small amount, but will act as a "pity" timer most games with RNG have.

This idea is copyrighted under public domain, just in case you would want to use it.

Zyaedra · February 2021

I agree that it would be nice if we had an avenue that allowed us to attain the item we are after after N runs.

The level (CP 160) is not a factor anymore with the addition of collections -- once we bind a looted set item, we can use the transmutation station to recreate it :-)

divnyi · February 2021

Zyaedra wrote: »

The level (CP 160) is not a factor anymore with the addition of collections -- once we bind a looted set item, we can use the transmutation station to recreate it :-)

Good catch

orion_1981usub17_ESO · February 2021

Dungeon collections are truly a pain on consoles, very few pugs are willing to wait just a minute or two to swap items. And even a pre-made group often can do multiple runs and pick up just a few items if lucky. It's simply not worth actively trying to get that one item to collect. Nothing worse than getting through the dungeon and collecting nothing.

zaria · February 2021

The chances is worse since its also an chance of dropping jewelry on the last boss.
I say the jewelry drop chance is pretty high compared to one specific weapon like the BSW inferno staff.
The saving grace is that chests can also drop weapons.

SOLDIER_1stClass · February 2021

Just make unique items like key fragments for each dungeon.

After defeating the final boss and final boss only, you will receive 5 "key fragments".

Once 50 is collected it can be turned into a vendor located at Undaunted Enclave for specific dungeon gear or weapons.

Fuzzybrick · February 2021

Back in the day I had to walk up hill both ways in 6 feet of snow just to play some eso.... Youngsters these days don't know how good they have it...

I remember farming for the molag kena monster set... I think I ran white gold tower 20 times before it dropped even once for me... And it was in training...

thorwyn · February 2021

We got the sticker book and an abundance of transmute crystals to farm, so all you need is ONE drop (trait irrelevant) and you can equip your entire army of Mag DDs with Medusa staves and people are still complaining about rng.
[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Lysette · February 2021

To me all of this sounds just like you guys would have made the game into unpaid work with a high stress and frustration factor. Is that really worth it?- Why not just enjoy playing, without this insane race to be just like the next best guy in pretty much the same gear with the same skills - how could it be any more boring?- And on top of that as well highly grindy.

LashanW · February 2021

Lysette wrote: »

To me all of this sounds just like you guys would have made the game into unpaid work with a high stress and frustration factor. Is that really worth it?- Why not just enjoy playing, without this insane race to be just like the next best guy in pretty much the same gear with the same skills - how could it be any more boring?- And on top of that as well highly grindy.

Different people have different ways of having "fun". "Fun" and "boring" are completely subjective. Don't be surprised if someone else is having fun in a different way than yours. Some people have fun playing competitively in endgame.

The game does need a compensation mechanism for really bad luck. It's entirely possible for a person to run vMA 200 times and never get the inferno staff while someone else get it in their first try. Only deciding factor is luck and it's not exactly encouraging to realize that you can run vMA again for another 50 times and still don't get the item you want. Crown store has a compensation mechanism (crown gems), so dungeon/trial/arena items should also have one.

preevious · February 2021

As one who ran Arx corinium 178 times (yes, not exageration .. it was 178, though I might be off 1-2) to finally be able to buy a lvl 20 medusa staff for a fellow adventurer ... I agree with you.

Now, I'd like some perfected staves, and I know it'll be a looooong journey.

Daemons_Bane · February 2021

It does not NEED it, even though you might like it.. mmo games have always had grinding, and it's not really that bad in eso..

Bomber293 · February 2021

huh? They already made it alot easier to get what you need. Back than you could not transmute the trait of a weapon so you didn't need 20runs but 120. Besides that you now have to do it once and recreate the weapon as often as you want.

Its fine how it is if you get every set you want for free there is no more need to play

renne · February 2021

*stares out the window, dreaming the impossible dream of a Z'ens inferno*

Ermiq · February 2021

mickeyx wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

We got the sticker book and an abundance of transmute crystals to farm, so all you need is ONE drop (trait irrelevant) and you can equip your entire army of Mag DDs with Medusa staves and people are still complaining about rng.
Let the excuses begin... "but I need the drop in the first place and the chances are sooo low" and "not everyone has a crafter and a transmute station because I'm not in a guild and I prefer to solo" and "but I have a job and a life and a puppy I can not play more than 30 minutes a day, this is a game not work" etc.etc.

[Quoted post was removed]

In MMORPGs dungeon/trial/raid runs supposed to be the fun and the actual process of playing the game. It's the main and essential part of PvE content in these games.
When I do dungeon runs for any reason, even when I farmed all my sets, I never felt like it was too long or I have been wasting my time. I've been playing the game. If not those runs, what else I would do? Start another alt to go through all the quests again? Stick to PvP content and never touch PvE again because I now have nothing to do in PvE? Nah... To me, it's better when I have something else to do here and there, in this dungeon, in that trial, from that BG trader... Once I get all I need I just lose any reason to play the game.

Daemons_Bane · February 2021

mickeyx wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

We got the sticker book and an abundance of transmute crystals to farm, so all you need is ONE drop (trait irrelevant) and you can equip your entire army of Mag DDs with Medusa staves and people are still complaining about rng.
Let the excuses begin... "but I need the drop in the first place and the chances are sooo low" and "not everyone has a crafter and a transmute station because I'm not in a guild and I prefer to solo" and "but I have a job and a life and a puppy I can not play more than 30 minutes a day, this is a game not work" etc.etc.

[Quoted post was removed]

I work, I have 2 families and several hobbies too.. but I enjoy collecting my stuff, and I enjoy helping others do it.. it has become so much easier to accomplish now, thanks to the sticker book.. I can recommend joining a guild or a discord channel.. farming gets a lot funnier when you have some banter going

Massacre_Wurm · February 2021

I remember farming bsw fire staff solo ( chest nb runs ) for a week. And it was nerfed it next patch. So never again )

But on the other hand - people farming sets = people in dungeon queue. And its good for the game.
So i am not sure about it.

ZaroktheImmortal · February 2021

RNG in this game can sure be a pain. I've had to run dungeons several times just to find the pieces I needed.

LashanW · February 2021

thorwyn wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

If effort is the only thing that is required, that would be fine. But luck is also required.
In fact, effort is not the deciding factor, luck is. And there is absolutely no way to counter extreme bad luck. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, how good you are with teamwork, how much time you put into the game. None of it matters.

Only thing that matters is whether the game's RnG code executed in your favor in the server you play in. You have absolutely no control over it. And that doesn't sound very motivating.

Personally I have been rather lucky. I have gotten pretty much all rare meta weapons in a relatively low number of runs. Got maelstrom infernos in less than 10 runs (both before and after perfected versions were introduced). Had like 3 BSW infernos and 2 pFG infernos and I wasn't really even farming them (these were before set collection system was introduced). But I do know and play with people who have had really bad luck and never got what they wanted despite being as skilled as me and actually having spent even more time than me.

Nobody here is asking stuff for free, they are just asking for a safety system to account for extreme bad luck. It is not very common but it CAN happen to some people, and it's awful when you become the example of the extreme bad luck case.

ZaroktheImmortal · February 2021

One thing I'll say is I'm glad at least they have reconstruction now though that means getting as many pieces of a set as you can to lower the reconstruction cost.

NupidStoob · February 2021

I disagree that this is needed. ZoS has added many ways to make this process easier and easier over the years. First with transmutation which they have buffed just recently with more ways to earn crystals easily. Secondly with collections which ensure that you only ever need to find something once. Even monstersets have become a lot easier to acquire since we can now target buy shoulders. We're at a point where it is very reasonable to get something you want in a reasonable time and anything you get is still valuable as you might need it in the future.

Now another reason why I disagree that this is needed is that there is no situation where there is no alternative build and you must absolutely have whatever weapon you can't get.

The argument of not always having 160 CP in your groups from OP is not ZoSs fault and 100% a problem OP has created for themselves. ZoS added a guildfinder and there a tons of guilds out there with people that will happily farm dungeons. If you nowadays play with randoms it's your fault and you have no right to complain about it.

The only place where I would have agreed this was a good idea would have been maelstrom arena, but since they added perfected weapons that are hardly worth using over their normal versions this problem has also been fixed.

Mythreindeer · February 2021

A guaranteed way to get the best items in the game?

No thanks, eezy peezy MMO not for me.

thorwyn · February 2021

If effort is the only thing that is required, that would be fine. But luck is also required.

Effort goes hand in hand with luck. That's how it is in games and in RL.

People spend countless hours pick pocketing NPC's for those rare drops. Not one of them comes up with "this is too much rng, we need a token system, one aetheric ciphre for 1000 successful steals".

Rootmender_Inky · February 2021

divnyi wrote: »

As of now, if you want a specific dungeon set weapon (weapons only drop from last boss or chests at small chance), your chances of getting it from boss is 1 in 13 item types / 3 set types / 2 (accessory or weapon). 1/13/3/2=0.0128

Now okay, you don't run alone, so it's 0.0128*4 = ~5.1%. So in average, you need 20 runs. A lot for the same content, but okayish for MMO, right?

Well, that's when RNG kicks in. You won't have all 4 160cp+ chars running a dungeon every time (it's 1-2 below in average), so double the number. And what about unlucky streaks? That's easily going well above 100 runs.

This isn't good. You might think this is what hold players in the game, but it's not. Players would rather acquire the item and play the harder content. Stuff like this is just discouraging and can cause players to leave a game at that point.

Ok, so what do I propose?

You have collection system, right? So you know exactly what items player is missing. Just make them acquire a new item from collection every N runs (N equals 3 sounds reasonable, but this is a variable). It won't lower number of runs to insanely small amount, but will act as a "pity" timer most games with RNG have.

This idea is copyrighted under public domain, just in case you would want to use it.

Don't know if that would work, but i'm all up for it. Farming Moongrave Fane's Hollowfang Lightning Staff since the DLC pack dropped.
100+ runs, on normal, veteran, and even veteran hard mode, and no Lightning Staff. I have all other pieces of Hollowfang too.

Anyron · February 2021

Imagine PvP only player farming perfected vateshran flame destruction staff
Now pve players can cry about farming rapid..

FinrodMacBeorn · February 2021

Anyron wrote: »

Imagine PvP only player farming perfected vateshran flame destruction staff
Now pve players can cry about farming rapid..

And their pleas have been heard by the almighty devs (on the pts) in a way that they didn't even dare to dream of.

For weapon drop chances, it would really help if at least each weapon has a similar drop chance.

I'm pretty sure (from own data and past discussions in this forum) that - at least in the arenas - first a set is chosen randomly and then the particular weapon of the set.

In Maelstrom, you have 6 sets (https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Maelstrom+Weapons). Hence, the chance for a resto staff (1 piece in the set) is 1/6, the chance for an inferno staff (3 weapons in the set) is 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/18.

gatekeeper13 · February 2021

They should add a fragment that after collecting a specific number of them, will let you to craft a set piece.

divnyi · February 2021

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

Youngsters these days don't know how good they have it...

My first MMO is Lineage2 c4. Youngsters, you say

NupidStoob wrote: »

The argument of not always having 160 CP in your groups from OP is not ZoSs fault and 100% a problem OP has created for themselves. ZoS added a guildfinder and there a tons of guilds out there with people that will happily farm dungeons. If you nowadays play with randoms it's your fault and you have no right to complain about it.

Why would anyone want to run simple normal dungeon with me all day in a row? Does it sound like fun or something? I've wasted whole weekends (not exxagerating, I remember my 2h buff going off like 6 times one day and like 4 times second day, every hour of it is speedrunning the dungeon & checking all chest spots) with no drop.

Ermiq wrote: »

When I do dungeon runs for any reason, even when I farmed all my sets, I never felt like it was too long or I have been wasting my time. I've been playing the game. If not those runs, what else I would do?

Playing harder content, which is actually challenging. I can do this dungeon solo with the closed eyes. I know every monster position, every chest, every dialogue. It's not fun.

Mythreindeer wrote: »

A guaranteed way to get the best items in the game?

Define best sets. Lots of the best sets are there in the shops, some are craftable (and you can just ask in the zone chat to craft them). Do you claim that all dungeon sets are better than others?

ghost_bg_ESO · February 2021

RNG in this game needs safe switch if it will be crystals or tokens or whatever for people to change for desired item, or some better rates...

I personally don't care that someone had run 200 times some instance "back in the days", if i don't get item faster enough (max 20 runs in rare cases) i just stop farming it, so less content to play - game become boring faster...

Skullstachio · February 2021

preevious wrote: »

As one who ran Arx corinium 178 times (yes, not exageration .. it was 178, though I might be off 1-2) to finally be able to buy a lvl 20 medusa staff for a fellow adventurer ... I agree with you.

Now, I'd like some perfected staves, and I know it'll be a looooong journey.

You and me both, I lost count of how many times I cleaned out Arx Corinium just for a Medusa Lightning staff, plus side, each time I “don’t” get it, I walk away richer because in the space of a week or less, I literally had around +200000 gold to spend/bank, so yeah, definitely worth the grind when your getting rich on the side.

Orion_89 · February 2021

Grinding dangeons has become really interesting for me, since ZOSs added set collections. Probably one of the best updates they ever made! Now you are not have to worry about armor's traits, just obtain each piece at once. It is already simple as hell!