Goregrinder wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

For the players who only want to quest and explore, I'd be fine with a safe PVE only option as long as there are no rewards.

No skyshards, no leads, no AP, no Tel Var, no achievements, no fish.

If all you want is questing and exploration, then let the story be its own reward!

But when you want the rewards of a PvPvE zone, you should play it as the Devs intended, which includes the risk of PVP.

(Its my experience that some PVEers just want to quest. They'll take that deal! Its also my experience that most PVEers really want a risk-free path to the rewards of a PvPvE zone, and a number of them get really bothered by the idea of "no risk of PVP, no rewards.")

If skyshards, leads and fish are a reward for risk equivalent to PvP then they need to *all* be relocated inside of group content. Fair is fair. To make skyshards as difficult to get in PvE Tamriel as they are in PvP Tamriel, some should be in a locked room that doesn't open until the dungeon or trial boss is killed and we should have to wait until that's done for them to be open, and then we should still have to fight more trash mobs while going after them, and the easiest ones should still be behind packs of roving mobs, some of which should be stealthed and have a one-shot mechanic if you aren't properly geared for that dungeon.

I'm not saying they are "risk equivalent." Obviously, PvPvE zones have an additional, yet fully intended level of risk with PVP. I mean...duh! The Devs didn't somehow forget that PVP can happen while skyshard hunting or fishing in a PvPvE zone, you know?

I am saying that players should play PVE zones as intended and PvPvE zones as intended. I note that a number of players who want the rewards of PvPvE zones with no risk of PVP are explicitly desiring to NOT play with the risks the Devs intended.


This isn't hard.

The Devs put a lead inside an Imperial City boss; they didn't forget that unlike every other world boss lead, Imperial City has the additional risk of PVP. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone to get that specific lead.

The Devs put skyshards in Cyrodiil; they didn't forget that Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone especially when they put 4 skyshards behind enemy gates and others deep in enemy territory. They intended that players face the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone for those and all the other Cyrodiil skyshards.

No, PVE risks in a PVE-only zone and PVP risks in a PvPvE zone aren't equivalent. They are distinctly different types of zones each with different, yet still fully intended levels of risk.

Why do you think you deserve the rewards of a PvPvE zone when you take away the intended risk of PVP?


(And as someone who does PVE group content as well as PVP, I'm not going to whine over your proposed change. I'll just note that its focusing on creating a false equivalency when that's not the point. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards, etc. around PVE-only zones with the risks of PVE. ZOS intended players to roam hunting skyshards etc. around PvPvE zones with the risks of PvPvE. It just so happens that certain players really, really want to avoid the risks of PvPvE while still asking for the rewards.)

I just don't see skyshards as rewards. They are world features and everywhere else you can run up to them and they only very *rarely* have a mob anywhere near them, and when they do it's a visible one that's easy to deal with beforehand and doesn't respawn while you're using the skyshard. I honestly think they should remove the skyshards from Cyrodiil and IC. Same with fishing. It makes no sense to put most of them where there's no effort whatsoever and then gate some behind something that is anathema to a lot of players. No PvP player will ever be prevented from getting a skyshard in PvE-land, that's impossible. Now, SOME leads it makes sense to have that risk, if they relate to PvP gear or even mythical PvE gear that would be used in endgame content. But skyshards, fishing, and toy leads? They're lying around everywhere else and then suddenly in Cyrodiil and IC they're worth getting killed over and over and over for? What are they the reward for in PvE besides proving that you know how to make your character walk to a place? It's really uneven.

So when players talk about the stuff they want out of Cyrodiil and Imperial City with no risks, typically its the achievements, the skyshards, the quests, the fish, event tickets, anniversary boxes, etc. I characterize those all as "rewards", since you get them by participating in the zones.

Yes, its uneven. As I pointed out, ZOS is fully aware that PvPvE zones have an additional, yet intended layer of risk of PvP, and they still put those "rewards" in there.


I could get behind removal as an option. That strongly incentivizes coming to PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City for explicitly PVP-related reasons, while removing the element of "I'm a PVE-only player who hates PVP but I really want "Tamriel Skyshard Hunter" or "Master Angler."" A lot of those base-game-inclusive titles/achievements/dyes are that way originally because Cyrodiil is part of the base game.

On the one hand, I eventually became a PVPer because I wanted that Master Angler title. On the other, I get that the "fear of missing out" is a powerful and very uncomfortable motivator that ZOS likes to use to get people into PvPvE zones. Whether its event tickets during MYM, fish for Master Angler, or leads in Imperial City, I understand that its unpleasant to feel torn between "do I do this content I dislike for this "reward" I want" or "do I miss out on the "reward" to avoid content I dislike." I've been there myself.

My preferred option is to leave things as they are. I think that players should play content as its intended and that, if they dislike it, they can make their own decision to do it or skip it without getting the rewards. I think that it's necessary for players to conquer their "fear of missing out", rather than asking for rewards for content they want to skip. Though I do think ZOS could use less FOMO in their events overall, and especially MYM - let people get all the tickets from whichever PVP activity/quest they want.

But I suppose I'm biased, since my decision that I wanted Master Angler enough to head into Cyrodiil got me into PVP, which I eventually realized I enjoy.

Yeah. I mean, I can see your side as well, but what you mentioned last...I think we are all biased depending upon our own personal experiences in Cyrodiil/IC and impressions very quickly become definitions. I know a lot of players who love PvP and were introduced to it via fishing. I also know a lot of players, myself included, who were very open to PvP and dipped their toe in via fishing, were promised that it's Not That Bad and got slammed with nastiness so hard our heads spun. My experience with trying to complete Master Angler in Cyrodiil was an ordeal of constant anxiety after my first few encounters with people who not only slaughtered me despite my attempts to fight back, run, signal that I wasn't after a fight, or fish with stealth, but then hate-whispered me for being too easy to kill, as if being new to PvP is somehow a sin worthy of mockery. It was hellish, and set the tone for my approaches to Cyrodiil from then on. I have since made more attempts to get into it just for the sake of my friends and for my own sanity because I do want the rewards that require earning AP (basically the dyes), and it would be better for me if it wasn't stressful as hell. At every turn I have been confronted by nasty players doing their best to make it personal by being insulting or unnecessarily cruel in gesture. It has improved my outlook not one bit, and instead sent me to the forums to look up your guides on how to do the PvP events without engaging in combat--very helpful, by the way. I can now go into Cyrodiil and grind wall repairs without having a panic attack because I go in the wee hours of morning when the campaigns are empty and have no AP bonuses, so it will be a long grind. But try as I might I don't think I will ever be able to shake the impression that Cyrodiil is for people who have a hate-on for life to vicariously take that out on anonymous strangers rather than a place for people to play a competitive game for fun. And that's where a lot of these suggestions are coming from, I think.

That's the thing though. When you're in a PVP zone, it doesn't matter how players PVP, just that they PVP. The only real "rule" is that when you're in a PVP zone, PVP will happen. I see players with all kinds of gentleman rules they think other people should have when it comes to PVP, and I even see it from other PVPers too (which I find amusing). Rules like: "Oh you're a ganker? Try playing a real build.." "Oh you just kill questers huh? real mature..." or "Oh you just run proc sets and stack health? Ezpz, where's the skill..." or "Oh you just run cheese builds huh? No real builds that take skill....", I could go on and on.

I think it's dumb to have imaginary rules set, and expect other people to participate in them. And if they don't participate using your personal imaginary rules, you chastise them for it. It would be like me suddenly walking up to you at target and being like "You know it's Wednesday right....why didn't you wear pink? You're supposed to wear pink on Wednesdays.....how dare you wear a different color!...I'm reporting you to the police!...."

You'd probably think I was crazy or psycho right? Like who is this dude telling me I'm supposed to only wear a certain color on a certain day right? It would seem pretty illogical to report someone not following imaginary rules to the authorities don't you think?

You're completely ignoring the most important part of all that, though. While it is true that some of us are given unrealistic expectations of some sort of code of honor that might give someone pause before attacking an obviously unthreatening but legitimate target, because of the many, many posts by PvPers claiming that very thing...that's not the problem for me at all. The problem, which I mentioned in the same sentence as the different types of attacks, is that after every single one, I was abused by the other player for losing. Without an exception. Every single one had to make some sort of comment, ranging from a terse "noob" to a descriptive paragraph about how I should never have bothered to come fish in Cyrodiil, that I should "keep carebear stuff out of Cyrodiil" and that I should never play again because I am such a weak, unskilled loser. I did not message any of these people first. I can't do that (even if I was inclined to), I am never quick enough to catch someone's username and I don't type fast enough even if I do see a short name to send a tell before they're out of sight and I'm not sure what I saw. They all chose to take note of my name so that they could specifically contact me to tell me that they thought I sucked and shouldn't be there. I managed to get my Cyrodiil fishing done in four days, because I was determined to get it over with, and every single time I encountered another player this is what happened. THAT is the problem with Cyrodiil. It's not just an isolated incident for some people. For some, the isolated incidents are like my two times in the entire four years I've played and had to go into IC for events where people actually treated me like they were aware there was another human behind the toon they were seeing. Two times of just not being treated like garbage, out of many, many encounters. And I know I'm not the only one.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Then make it a fair fight. Bring friends, get some pvp gear, and keep trying. I wouldn't try to solo sunspire in pvp gear, why would you solo the IC quests in pve gear?

Because its a pve quest wich is plaged by the curse of pvp player

Its a quest in a PVP enabled zone so its a PVP quest. The mobs are not the main challenge of the zone, its the other players.

Remember you are as much a quest objective as that Xivkyn you are beating on, if you act like an NPC you will die. Stealth around, use detect potions, actually use gear intended for the content you are doing which in the end is PVP content. If you have to build tanky, then build tanky. If you have to bring friends, then bring friends.

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Then make it a fair fight. Bring friends, get some pvp gear, and keep trying. I wouldn't try to solo sunspire in pvp gear, why would you solo the IC quests in pve gear?

Because its a pve quest wich is plaged by the curse of pvp player

Its a quest in a PVP enabled zone so its a PVP quest. The mobs are not the main challenge of the zone, its the other players.

Remember you are as much a quest objective as that Xivkyn you are beating on, if you act like an NPC you will die. Stealth around, use detect potions, actually use gear intended for the content you are doing which in the end is PVP content. If you have to build tanky, then build tanky. If you have to bring friends, then bring friends.

Except the main quest of IC completely ignores the Alliances' presence and treats you just like lone hero in a city occupied by daedric forces. Drake of Blades tells you from the start that Three Banners war doesn't matter and you should focus on Molag Bal's plan.

The Three Banners War might not matter to the Drake of Blades because she's an essential NPC who's equally willing to ally with my EP Legate, AD Eye of the Queen, and Breton Hero of the Covenant to stop Molag Bal. She want me to do her quests, not faff about fishing or fighting the other alliances.

It most definitely matters to me because I'm not an essential NPC. I'm a member of one of those three alliances and when I step out of the safe zones, I'm a fair target in a zone designed to be a battlefield torn between daedra and the Three Banners War. That's true even when I'm doing her quests. Only the last one is instanced for most of it.

To quote ZOS:

"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357

"Between enemy alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, danger lurks around every corner of the Imperial City....Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365


You're basically asking us to pretend that ZOS somehow forgot that the entire Drake of Blades's questline until the last quest requires running around in the PVP-enabled Sewers and Districts.

Azurya wrote: »

erio wrote: »

Another year, another lot of pve posts asking for their own special instance of IC that has PVP disabled.
Heres my logic, in the form of a comparison:
Imagine that I - A mainly pvp player - Wanted to get some fancy smanchy gear and achievements/skins from Vet Sunspire. Well Im a pvp player, and I dont want to learn how to pve properly. I dont want to dedicate time to earning my rewards, I just want to stick to what im good at. Since I love pvp so much, and im not good at pve - I demand a special instance of Vet Sunspire that caters to my pvp skills and lack of pve knowledge. In this special instance, I cannot die, but I can earn all the benefits and rewards!
Edit: Try to interpret what im saying here instead of doing a literal comparison between vet sunspire and IC lmao

Do you see my logic here?

Even though I pvp and dont like pve, if I want the hottest new proc set, I have to get ready, and hop on my pve toon to farm it out. You should have to do the same in pvp.

If you arent good at something, you shouldnt reap the rewards imo.

On top of shrinking the pvp playerbase (by removing pvers from pvp ic), it would ruin the economy for telvar since there would be 0 risk associated with it
Edit 2: People are trying to focus on this one point, and ignore everything else, which is silly imo. Ill elabrate on this point more too. If you remove pvers from the pvp playerbase, it will shrink the pvp population, because not as many pvers will start to pvp. Thats how I got into it after all, I was like 300ish cp, and wanted skyshards so I stepped into cyro. I ended up pvping and enjoyed it.

Also people are out here saying that "oooh pvp players are evil nasty gankers who camp quests". No. 99% of us arent like that. No one is going to gank you all day to stop you from doing your quest. Even if someone was trolling you, you can always go to the other campaigns.

Edit 3: Saying pvpers get carried in pve content is just wrong. From a difficulty perspective, most pve content is easy. You can steamroll through most vet dungeons with 0 effort. Secondly, PVP requires that the players actually understand the games mechanics. If not, youll just die in like 2 seconds. Thats why the switch from PVP to PVE is easy. We're literally going from fighting unpredictable human being to a simple ai with telegraphed attacks. This is also one of the reasons why I think pve players complain about doing PVP, because they dont understand the switch.

and what exactly speaks against an *extra* pvp-free version of Cyrodil and Imp-city??

Depends. Do you want the same rewards as PvPvE Cyrodiil/IC without the risk of PVP?

An extra zone, with different rewards and achievements available to everyone, sure! I'd be down for that.

nukk3r wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Then make it a fair fight. Bring friends, get some pvp gear, and keep trying. I wouldn't try to solo sunspire in pvp gear, why would you solo the IC quests in pve gear?

Because its a pve quest wich is plaged by the curse of pvp player

Its a quest in a PVP enabled zone so its a PVP quest. The mobs are not the main challenge of the zone, its the other players.

Remember you are as much a quest objective as that Xivkyn you are beating on, if you act like an NPC you will die. Stealth around, use detect potions, actually use gear intended for the content you are doing which in the end is PVP content. If you have to build tanky, then build tanky. If you have to bring friends, then bring friends.

Except the main quest of IC completely ignores the Alliances' presence and treats you just like lone hero in a city occupied by daedric forces. Drake of Blades tells you from the start that Three Banners war doesn't matter and you should focus on Molag Bal's plan.

The Three Banners War might not matter to the Drake of Blades because she's an essential NPC who's equally willing to ally with my EP Legate, AD Eye of the Queen, and Breton Hero of the Covenant to stop Molag Bal. She want me to do her quests, not faff about fishing or fighting the other alliances.

It most definitely matters to me because I'm not an essential NPC. I'm a member of one of those three alliances and when I step out of the safe zones, I'm a fair target in a zone designed to be a battlefield torn between daedra and the Three Banners War. That's true even when I'm doing her quests. Only the last one is instanced for most of it.

To quote ZOS:

"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357

"Between enemy alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, danger lurks around every corner of the Imperial City....Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365


You're basically asking us to pretend that ZOS somehow forgot that the entire Drake of Blades's questline until the last quest requires running around in the PVP-enabled Sewers and Districts.

Drake calls your alliance a militia and the whole war a "border dispute". It doesn't make any impact on the story, you don't need to kill enemy players to progress through the quest. But your character is THE ONLY character doing these quest from the game's perspective, other players are just background noise. It would've make sense if the quests were like "those EP grunts look sus, thin their ranks to gain intel", so you'd go kill like 5 players and then your main quest would progress. But they didn't make it like this, you just go from point A to point B and talk to NPCs. How is this PvP?

Again, do you think that, when ZOS launched their first PvPvE zone, they forgot that the quests take place in PvP enabled areas.

Lets's look at the Launch details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357
Among the items that are included in the Imperial City DLC, ZOS lists, in order:

• A brand new PvP/PvE space, including the six Imperial City Districts
• New quests and key characters within the Imperial City
• One new Imperial City PvP Public Dungeon: The Imperial Sewers

Yes, yes, tell me that ZOS didn't fully intend those quests to be completed in the middle of a PvP/PvE space...

I mean, of course the Drake of Blades acts like you are the only player in existence. That's true of every NPC questgiver. What's unique about PvP/PvE areas is the PVP - you aren't the only player around, and ZOS knows that.

Sorry, but saying that the Drake of Blades doesn't care about the petty squabbles of the three alliances encroaching on her home turf doesn't mean anything for how ZOS intended members of the three alliances to experience the Imperial City. Its a bad excuse and one that relies on ignoring all the context of what's happening in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City - its clearly NOT just a city under attack by daedric forces, it clearly IS being warned over by all three alliances, and designed from the beginning as a PvP/PVE zone.


Side note: You know, I was in favor of the seperate queue entrances for Imperial City for the convenience of players who didn't want to ride through Alliance War Cyrodiil to get to and from the sewer entrances, but times like this I sort of wish the old entrances were still the only way in. Nothing like riding through PVP territory to even get to the Imperial City to rub it in that, yes, ZOS fully intended for everyone to risk PVP even getting to those quests, much less doing them.

Greasytengu wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

People in this thread forgetting that fact that questing in a pvp zone makes you a pvper even if you dont like it.

If you honestly cant pvp, then make friends with people who can and get them to help out.

IC is as much PvE zone as it is PvP. Thing is that many PvErs are there just to do 8 quests, get their 15 achievement points and a dye, and leave IC forever (or until MYM). It's an hour and a half endeavor but getting constantly farmed in Nobles district, where you need to kill waves of daedra at three places, makes it unnecessarily longer. And IC dwellers know this all too well, because they're the reason for it. But I guess someone just isn't interested in fair fights.

Then make it a fair fight. Bring friends, get some pvp gear, and keep trying. I wouldn't try to solo sunspire in pvp gear, why would you solo the IC quests in pve gear?

Because its a pve quest wich is plaged by the curse of pvp player

Its a quest in a PVP enabled zone so its a PVP quest. The mobs are not the main challenge of the zone, its the other players.

Remember you are as much a quest objective as that Xivkyn you are beating on, if you act like an NPC you will die. Stealth around, use detect potions, actually use gear intended for the content you are doing which in the end is PVP content. If you have to build tanky, then build tanky. If you have to bring friends, then bring friends.

Im not there to waste my time in pvp im there to complete te pve quest that are in a pvp enable pve zone

Then for the sake of anyone else who reads my argument and wants to continue the debate, my point is this: ZOS' intention that the Imperial City quests take place in PvP/PvE areas is so clear that it supersedes semantics over the Drake of Blades acting like we're the only player in a war zone. The Drake of Blades' dialogue is not sufficient reason to treat her questline as a "PVE quest" when all of the marketing materials make it crystal clear that ZOS' intention was for most of her quests to take place in explicitly PvP/PvE areas.

Its a PvPvE quest, plain and simple, with all of risk of any other PvP-enabled zone that entails.

hafgood wrote: »

Those arguing for PvE Cyro / IC just don't get it do they?

The whole point of having so called PvE stuff in these zones is to take PvErs into PvP.

Thats the whole reason for the mix.

Its not to annoy PvErs, its not to provide PvPers with easy kills.

Its to get PvErs into these zones so they give PvP a go.

Yes I get some of you have had bad experiences, yes I get some of you find it daunting, and yes I get some of you don't want to do it.

But there are plenty of dedicated PvErs that go into Cyro or IC during an event or because they want the skyshards, etc and find that they enjoy it.

By removing PvP from an instance so that PvErs have the safe zone the vocal few crave it is actually PvErs that miss out. Not PvPers.

PvPers only loss from PvErs having their own zone is in queue time. Because our queues to get into our home campaign will be shorter.

But all those PvErs that would have gone on to enjoy PvP miss out because the vocal rabid anti-PvP minority robbed them of the opportunity by presenting them with a safe PvE zone.

And that's a shame.

Leave Cyro / IC alone, they are PvP for a reason.

As someone who used to be a PVE-only player who got lured into PVP areas by the siren song of the "Master Angler" title even though I really, really hated the idea of PVP...

I think they do get it. They know that ZOS is playing on their "fear of missing out" to drag them into PVP areas. At least, I knew it and I went anyway, accepting the risk and unpleasantness of getting ganked while fishing in order to get my Master Angler title.


Where I think a lot of PVPers struggle with this debate is the idea that for many players, PVP areas are genuinely and viscerally unpleasant. For me, I don't mind dying and starting over, but there's a certain wary alertness that's necessary for questing and fishing in PVP that's just not found anywhere else. Its the opposite of relaxing. It stresses me out and saps the enjoyment out of a play session pretty quickly. And I like PVP!
(Side note: I suspect this is why a lot of the "Well, I dislike PVE content but I have to do it" comparisons fall flat for PVE-only players - most people in this game don't find PVE content viscerally unpleasant to the same extent. PvPers say "I've gotten kicked from dungeons" - yes, but do you fear getting kicked from every group the way a PVE-only player fears getting ganked at a questgiver? There's a difference, and it often comes across as minimizing their visceral experience of feeling hunted by more experienced players in Cyrodiil. I've felt that fear when I was a new PVPer. I fought through it by reminding myself that I was new, I was going to die lots, and that was okay.)


So while now I say "Well, obviously ZOS wants players to experience ALL the game if we want ALL the rewards," I do remember back to when I was a PVE-only player. From that perspective, it sounds more like:

"Obviously, ZOS wants me to do this awful and extremely unpleasant content that I really, really don't want to do in order to get this reward I really, really want!"

Which, well, is true. That's exactly how I felt...and its exactly what ZOS wants. FOMO is a powerful motivator.. And for players who know they'll never like PVP, there's the added bit of "And no, I'm never ever going to like PVP, so there's no point in forcing me to try it out, when I'm never going to like it/all my prior experiences have been terrible. Why are you still forcing me to go?" Its very hard to judge that ZOS thinks that forcing you into an experience you've explained is awful is worth it for the percentage of players who will try it out and discover they like PVP well enough to participate in it casually or hardcore.

There's a reason why we get semi-annual posts around events that amount to "ZOS, make the bad place go away! Don't make me go there for rewards! Give me us a "path of least resistance" so only the people who really want to PVP have to PVP!" Its largely from players for whom PVP is genuinely and viscerally unpleasant, whether from fear or previous toxic interactions with PVPers rather than conquer their "fear of missing out." I think they know its counter to the game design that ZOS has chosen to follow with rewards, but I understand why they keep asking for PVP to become the exception to the rule - its just so unpleasant for them that they think it justifies ZOS giving them a way out.


What's the answer?
There is no answer that will please everyone.

ZOS seems content to expect players to head into PVP twice a year for Midyear Mayhem rewards, and to give them the option for it during the Imperial City Celebration and Anniversary. In addition, they seem to be sticking to "you have to play ALL of the game if you want ALL the rewards."

I think that's a reasonable game design choice that won't please everyone. It didn't please PVE-only me, though in hindsight, its worked out very well for me. I admit I'm a bit of a poster child for "hated PVP- went for fish- went for achievements-started to PVP- now loves PVP!" Its not that way for everyone. My SO has tried PVP and still doesn't care for it.

My personal answer is to always remember that I used to be a PVE-only player who hated PVP and to try to pass along the tips and tricks that helped me slowly and gradually become a player who loves PVP. As long as ZOS expects players to try PVP for all the rewards, there will always be players like PVE-only me who come only for the rewards while dreading every minute of PVP risk.

Minyassa wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Those arguing for PvE Cyro / IC just don't get it do they?

The whole point of having so called PvE stuff in these zones is to take PvErs into PvP.

Thats the whole reason for the mix.

Its not to annoy PvErs, its not to provide PvPers with easy kills.

Its to get PvErs into these zones so they give PvP a go.

Yes I get some of you have had bad experiences, yes I get some of you find it daunting, and yes I get some of you don't want to do it.

But there are plenty of dedicated PvErs that go into Cyro or IC during an event or because they want the skyshards, etc and find that they enjoy it.

By removing PvP from an instance so that PvErs have the safe zone the vocal few crave it is actually PvErs that miss out. Not PvPers.

PvPers only loss from PvErs having their own zone is in queue time. Because our queues to get into our home campaign will be shorter.

But all those PvErs that would have gone on to enjoy PvP miss out because the vocal rabid anti-PvP minority robbed them of the opportunity by presenting them with a safe PvE zone.

And that's a shame.

Leave Cyro / IC alone, they are PvP for a reason.

As someone who used to be a PVE-only player who got lured into PVP areas by the siren song of the "Master Angler" title even though I really, really hated the idea of PVP...

I think they do get it. They know that ZOS is playing on their "fear of missing out" to drag them into PVP areas. At least, I knew it and I went anyway, accepting the risk and unpleasantness of getting ganked while fishing in order to get my Master Angler title.


Where I think a lot of PVPers struggle with this debate is the idea that for many players, PVP areas are genuinely and viscerally unpleasant. For me, I don't mind dying and starting over, but there's a certain wary alertness that's necessary for questing and fishing in PVP that's just not found anywhere else. Its the opposite of relaxing. It stresses me out and saps the enjoyment out of a play session pretty quickly. And I like PVP!
(Side note: I suspect this is why a lot of the "Well, I dislike PVE content but I have to do it" comparisons fall flat for PVE-only players - most people in this game don't find PVE content viscerally unpleasant to the same extent. PvPers say "I've gotten kicked from dungeons" - yes, but do you fear getting kicked from every group the way a PVE-only player fears getting ganked at a questgiver? There's a difference, and it often comes across as minimizing their visceral experience of feeling hunted by more experienced players in Cyrodiil. I've felt that fear when I was a new PVPer. I fought through it by reminding myself that I was new, I was going to die lots, and that was okay.)


So while now I say "Well, obviously ZOS wants players to experience ALL the game if we want ALL the rewards," I do remember back to when I was a PVE-only player. From that perspective, it sounds more like:

"Obviously, ZOS wants me to do this awful and extremely unpleasant content that I really, really don't want to do in order to get this reward I really, really want!"

Which, well, is true. That's exactly how I felt...and its exactly what ZOS wants. FOMO is a powerful motivator.. And for players who know they'll never like PVP, there's the added bit of "And no, I'm never ever going to like PVP, so there's no point in forcing me to try it out, when I'm never going to like it/all my prior experiences have been terrible. Why are you still forcing me to go?" Its very hard to judge that ZOS thinks that forcing you into an experience you've explained is awful is worth it for the percentage of players who will try it out and discover they like PVP well enough to participate in it casually or hardcore.

There's a reason why we get semi-annual posts around events that amount to "ZOS, make the bad place go away! Don't make me go there for rewards! Give me us a "path of least resistance" so only the people who really want to PVP have to PVP!" Its largely from players for whom PVP is genuinely and viscerally unpleasant, whether from fear or previous toxic interactions with PVPers rather than conquer their "fear of missing out." I think they know its counter to the game design that ZOS has chosen to follow with rewards, but I understand why they keep asking for PVP to become the exception to the rule - its just so unpleasant for them that they think it justifies ZOS giving them a way out.


What's the answer?
There is no answer that will please everyone.

ZOS seems content to expect players to head into PVP twice a year for Midyear Mayhem rewards, and to give them the option for it during the Imperial City Celebration and Anniversary. In addition, they seem to be sticking to "you have to play ALL of the game if you want ALL the rewards."

I think that's a reasonable game design choice that won't please everyone. It didn't please PVE-only me, though in hindsight, its worked out very well for me. I admit I'm a bit of a poster child for "hated PVP- went for fish- went for achievements-started to PVP- now loves PVP!" Its not that way for everyone. My SO has tried PVP and still doesn't care for it.

My personal answer is to always remember that I used to be a PVE-only player who hated PVP and to try to pass along the tips and tricks that helped me slowly and gradually become a player who loves PVP. As long as ZOS expects players to try PVP for all the rewards, there will always be players like PVE-only me who come only for the rewards while dreading every minute of PVP risk.

A partial solution--VERY partial, it wouldn't address people for whom the atmosphere itself is stressful, and who get frustrated about the learning curve--would be to address the toxicity that brands PvP areas as a horribly unpleasant place that guarantees misery. More consequences or prevention for genuinely toxic behavior that is NOT defined as "attacking PvE players who didn't want to be attacked" at all.

Hate whispering, repeatedly hunting down the same player to kill them over and over again, camping doors to kill people who have not loaded yet, teabagging or otherwise mimicking sexual desecration of a corpse, these things could be prevented or curbed if ZOS put their minds to it. Actual consequences for reported hate whispers should be a no-brainer, since the game records them and they are provable. Something done about door camping, like making a safe zone around quest NPCs, could be done. Having an immediate investigation of griefing by on-duty game mods would help. Taking care of the nasty things that people do deliberately to other players that are OUTSIDE of the normal scope of just killing anyone that's fair game would go a very long way toward lifting the stigma of horribleness for a lot of players. It could absolutely be fixed if ZOS wanted to fix it, and honestly if PvP players really want more people to come play with them, they should work on getting ZOS to take care of the parts of the PvP stigma that are not legitimate play instead of focusing on screaming at the players who don't like being killed. Those people have their own problem that nothing can be done about. People who dislike being actually abused could be settled by finding ways to get rid of the abuse and I guarantee that such steps would get more players into PvP. As I've said many times before, I have never met someone who hates PvP because they get killed. It's alway because they don't like being verbally or gesturally abused.

Absolutely!

It would go a long way if ZOS made it clear that "reported hate whisper = consequence." Same thing for teabagging; yes, the Devs have confirmed its a reportable offense under certain contexts, but again, a firm stance in enforcing those circumstances would go a long way towards encouraging not teabagging random players. Or they could just ban it, though that would cut against the grain of a lot of PVP games, which probably factors into their reasoning that context matters.

I mean, sure, ZOS says there are consequences, but since they are more concerned with the privacy of the offender, they'll never report it or allow discussion of those disciplinary actions. So its hard to see the effects of what ZOS does do...except that we clearly see the results: PVP players who want to be toxic feel free to do so, not fearing consequences that might make them think twice about hate whispering or teabagging someone.

And yes, questgivers are a mess. I know I've asked for ZOS on past PTS events to be consistent about their quest givers - some of them are safe and some of them are in very unsafe buildings. For example, ZOS took the doors off resources to prevent stun-killing people as they load in, but hasn't done the same for town questgivers? Come on, ZOS. Either make interiors a safe no-combat zone or take the doors off so players have a fighting chance.


Side note: For what it's worth, when I was PVE-only, I hated the idea of PVP because I really didn't like the idea of going to Cyrodiil and getting killed. At that point, I hadn't had any PVP interactions at all, good or bad. I'm probably the exception though, as ESO was the first video game I'd played that had any PVP at all, so I had no idea of what to expect except that I didn't like being killed by other players. And I've been very fortunate to not get many hate whispers over the years I've PVPed. Most of my hate whispers come from beating people to resource nodes, actually. Again, it may be that I'm the exception. I was certainly very fortunate to find a welcoming PVP guild when I decided to really try to learn PVP. Positive reinforcement rather than toxic experiences makes a world of difference.

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Where is this pvp toxicity that I keep hearing about? I’ve played almost daily for 5 years and I got 2 whispers, 1 saying I was cheating and another saying I won because I have gold weapons. Meanwhile if I look through this thread all the toxicity and insults seems to be coming from the pve crowd.

There’s an old saying when you point a finger at someone else there are 3 more pointing back at you. And no this isn’t directed at you Varanis, you’re one of the most helpful people I’ve seen on the forums.

Thanks, but honestly, from the sort of things my PVP guildmates say they've gotten in their hate whispers during raid, I don't have any problems believing that some PVPers get toxic. I mean, even beyond Cyro zone chat, its kind of a thing with certain players in Cyrodiil to send a nasty whisper but be set to "offline" so they can't be whispered back.

I don't get a lot of hate whispers myself, but I'm sure the main reason for that is because I play a healer. I just don't end up on a lot of death recaps that way. In comparison, my guildmates and especially my guild leaders get plenty. There's a reason why a lot of PVPers tend to shrug off hate whispers received after winning a fight as "think of it as a compliment or a badge of honor." In raid, we're laughing at the whisperers. Even the whispers we get taunting us when we lose are easier to laugh off because we're PVPing with friends. Its PVP; we all know we win some and lose some.

So on the one hand, there are some PVP-hating players who condemn PVPers who are playing within the bounds that ZOS intends with all sorts of nasty terms and implications of sociopaths, etc.
On the other, I have no problems believe that some PVPers are genuinely toxic and abusive, especially with hate whispers. I personally haven't gotten many, but I've heard plenty of what my guildmates have gotten. Ugh. Just because taunting is generally a part of "PVP culture" is no excuse for being toxic, abusive, and breaking the TOS.


Side note: One reason that some PVE-only players feel like PVPers are being toxic in these forum discussions is when "I really don't like PVP at all for X reasons" is met with a litany of "Get good, scrub" and "L2Play" posts that say everything but "Buck up, Buttercup" without providing any help or advice. I get the frustration with advice that seems obviously unhelpful. Like, "Thanks, but that doesn't address my problem." At a certain point, its my experience that faux helpful advice that isn't actually helpful starts to feel pretty disingenuous and mean-spirited. It may not be the intention of the PVPers who are offering it, but that's one reason I started writing my guides. Since I think players should learn to get by in PvPvE zones, I try to pass on the info that would have helped me when I was learning to get by. I can't do much to help players who can't stand PVP for X reasons like PVP any better since that's their own preferences, but I can at least pass on what made it easier for me.