The new CP system. False promises of horizontal progression.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2021

The only thing horizontal in this system is the way the perks are placed.

Agalloch · February 2021

This is a mmo after all..and needs Vertical progression and horizontal progression. Anyway..after Update 29 CP points will have another exp curve so u'll gain CP faster. This is not GW2 ..is ESO and needs also a vertical progression even is a little.

English is not my native language.

P.S Also...veteran players that started since beta need some attention....

Agalloch · February 2021

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/320594109750444043/804326559183011871/dd0c5d1.jpg

This is the conversion.

zaria · February 2021

Agalloch wrote: »

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/320594109750444043/804326559183011871/dd0c5d1.jpg

This is the conversion.

Except that at the PTS cost of getting an new cp level is exact the same as the old formula including the *1.5 penalty of being above 810 cp.

And how is this supposed to work? I assume its so your xp needed to reach cp 3600 is the same as reaching cp 1526 now if you have 0 cp. while if you have 1335 cp cost to cp 1336 is supposed to be the same as going from cp 700 to 701 now.

And grinding only make you go in circles

Agalloch · February 2021

zaria wrote: »

Agalloch wrote: »

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/320594109750444043/804326559183011871/dd0c5d1.jpg

This is the conversion.

Except that at the PTS cost of getting an new cp level is exact the same as the old formula including the *1.5 penalty of being above 810 cp.

And how is this supposed to work? I assume its so your xp needed to reach cp 3600 is the same as reaching cp 1526 now if you have 0 cp. while if you have 1335 cp cost to cp 1336 is supposed to be the same as going from cp 700 to 701 now.

And grinding only make you go in circles

We still not know everything...

We must wait for the next PTS patches and for the official launch. I am sure the new CP system will not so be so grindy.

Septimus_Magna · February 2021

I think the sense of progression would be better if the trees were more equally balanced. The blue tree is where you'll get most of your power from, it takes at least 30CP to gain 1 stage for an extra 260 magicka for example. That feels really slow, even if you gain CP quicker with the new XP conversion.

Warfare is way too loaded with useful stuff, Fitness is decent but Craft is mostly useless for combat. The chance to apply a status effect, extra armor from gear or extra effectiveness from enchants could fall under the Craft tree to spread out the effectiveness a little more.

rpa · February 2021

Having to (possibly) grind to get things like resource gathering speed back does not make "horizontal progression" of the new CP feel like improvement. Balancing nerfs are one thing but nerfs to quality of life are not fun at all.

(However I've only I fiddled few mins with it at PTS, because template only gave CP810 then. Haven't checked after the patch because I did not notice anything relevant in patch notes.)

TwinLamps · February 2021

eso_lags wrote: »

Its crazy to me that something that actually has me super excited for the first time in a long time might be the same thing that makes me quit for good after so many years. Solo pvp is hard enough as it it. Solo pvp takes a hit almost every update and almost every time something gets nerfed. If its going to take 2k plus cp to get to a point where I can be as strong as possible then idk what to say, im just not gonna do it. Im not gonna grind out 600 or more CP with the current rates or even with the 6% boost or whatever.

There has to be a better way. If i have to spend a month playing at a disadvantage, doing what i normally do every day while gaining XP, to get to a viable cp rank then thats fine. Ill do it, even if i dont agree with it. But im not going to go spend months of my time grinding everyday just so i can be able to do what I have always done in this game.

This change is already going to hurt certain play styles and classes more than others, even at the max rank, theres no need to expect everyone to grind so much to get to the max rank, or whatever the amount is to get everything useful and make the correct choices for your build. Maybe they reduce the amount of xp you need by a lot more, maybe they give you enlightened a looott more. Idk the answer.

I also heard that cp progression after 1200 will not change, if thats the case then its a big GG. Thanks to everyone who tested and for the information here.

Now imagine if you had multiple accounts.
I am sure I aint alone in that.

Elo106 · February 2021

The devs said it will be easier to get to 1200 CP but after that it stays the same.
I dont know why they think 400 CP in the blue tree means you are capped at combat effectiveness. One look at the tree and you can see its not true.

Also some perks are overpowered and no brainers while others are not worth the points at all. CP 2.0 needs a lot of work.

I just hope they actually listen to PTS feedback for once.

Zer0_CooL · February 2021

At least all the free experience scrolls got a use now

Elwendryll · February 2021

I couldn't properly test on PTS *sad EU noises*.
I started playing in march 2015, at the time of this post I have 3700+ hours played on my main character, I'm CP 1127.
If we do some quick math, it would roughly average 1 hour and 40 minutes a day, for 6 years.

I have been playing in a way that grants experience very slowly. I don't do writs, I seldom run random dungeons, I only join the daily pledges when asked to, I still haven't completed any story content after Southern Elsweyr, that I'm still not done with.

What do I do then? Vet DLC dungeons, and trials. Over 2020, I got 10 dungeon trifecta achievements, from Scalecaller to Icereach, we're currently working on the Stonethorn ones, we've been waiting for the motifs to be released. I also got the clears on all the trials HM, and I started progressing on the Trifectas, I got TTT last month, and we just started progression on IR. I also used to do some PvP, my rank was in the low 20's, I plan to eventually seriously get into it.

But I'm still only CP 1127, I know a lot of people who played a similar time or less and who are way higher CP than me, why? Because I didn't bother farming anything, I really just played what I wanted to play, because after all, there is so much content in this game that eventually I would reach max CP just doing whatever I want, and I would still have content left, right?

Ahah, not anymore. Because now, if the cap goes up like that, I will have to spend a lot, and I mean a lot of time, to claim back a part of the power that is going to be taken away from us. Now, don't get me wrong, I think an overall nerf is a good thing. I only play one character, that I can DD and Tank with on an equally decent level, 102k+ dps on dummy, I got a TTT clear as off-tank, I'm currently off-tanking vAS+2 for our IR prog. Yesterday we were running Castle Thorn, I had 70k+ dps on some of the bosses, we ended up clearing the dungeon under 20 minutes, without dying (and still got no achievement because it's bugged but that's an other story

). Some groups also have way too much damage in trials, sometimes using pre-buff sets (that are going to be taken away), an overall damage nerf wouldn't hurt, it would make the mechanics more relevant. However, the issue now is that some players who reached max CP relatively recently but are very skilled are going to be at a disadvantage. We were all on a level playing field, at max CP, and it was personal experience that separated players. With the new CPs, some people who worked very hard to get were they are will have an extra obstacle to overcome to catch up to, not even older players, but people who farmed experience more efficiently. I'm not worried about my positions in my current groups, CPs won't make a big difference for me as a tank, and I only DD in dungeons, where I already have way too much damage for the content, but for DDs and Healers, I'm afraid a lot of people will have troubles still performing at the required level, if they don't just get replaced by someone with higher CPs.

For PvP it's going to be even worse, I already preferred no-CP, I have a feeling some people may make the same decision after the new system is out.

Overall I like the new system, and I like the intention, vertical progression then horizontal progression, it's good. But the actual implementation missed a few marks, as this post pointed out. I really don't like grinding, I like this game, but because of the challenge and my communities, I lost interest in the solo content and farming a long time ago. And now it looks like a lot of the time I invested will lose value, as I am now facing a situation where I feel like I may be forced to play. I like objectives that require me to get better as a player and accrue personal experience, and that will take time as a result, not objectives that will take time because it just takes time, I already have Genshin Impact for that.

What do I want? The devs to learn what vertical actually means so their system does what they say it does. Horizontal progression after CP 1200 is good, but as the OP brilliantly explained, we can only achieve that if we change the balance between passive and active stars.

zvavi · February 2021

Agalloch wrote: »

This is the conversion.

Interesting, it does make it a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bit better, since it means we will finish grinding it at some point, but 800,000,000 total XP? It means that they expect a casual to reach the cap after 2k days (400k enlightenment XP) and that's almost 6 years

which would have been entirely fine (around a year for 1200 CP) if vertical progression really ended at 1200 CP, but it doesn't.

ThePedge · February 2021

Sgrug wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m concerned that the fix would be to change more passives to slottable, which just means we all get weaker.

IMO some of the stars are just too expensive, like 100 CPs for more status effects (or 200 for hybrids), the benefit per CP spent seems much lower than in the old system. Also there’s too much packed into the blue tree, while red and green are weaker, resulting in a situation where only 1/3 of new CP’s earned feel useful. The system is good overall, just needs some minor adjustments to reduce the grind.

Red cp is not any more balanced. Red cp looks very important to tank, so many passives affecting the sustain of tanks, and tanking passives (like movement speed during block) you have:
Tumbling 60: dodge stamina sustain
Tireless guardian 50: block cost.
Defiance 50: reduce cost of break free.
Mystic Tenacity 50: reduce duration of status effects
Savage defense 75: bash cost
Nimble protector 15: block movement speed
Fortification 100: blocked dmg
Heroes vigor 50: max health
Tempered soul 250: res with more resources
Spirit mastery 33: res allies faster

This is just the passives, and we are already looking at 733 red cp, which means 2199 cp. I didn't even include Slottable cp stars.

It doesn't matter how small their impact is, up until 2800 cp, it is still vertical progression.

And that is ok. Why are so many people afraid of vertical progression? It is small enough as to not make a game-changing impact but large enough as to make people feel like they are growing. I am actually very impressed with ZoS on this iteration of CP changes.

Because the changes are meant to make progression more horizontal instead of vertical.

The changes go directly against what they set out to try and do. Instead vertical progression continues much further than 810 CP, up to almost 2000.

Iccotak · February 2021

It’s all being tested

What we see on PTS is not exactly what they’re launching with as a point of pts is to test and get feedback.

Even after launch it will still be tested, patched, and balanced overtime.

It’s not going to be perfect and we’ll be spending a lot of time adjusting to the new system.

Expect this to be the case.

zvavi · February 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Expect this to be the case.

*Hope. And I am trying to bring as much closure to it as possible before release so people will know what to expect, and higher chance for them to actually change it.

Mastery404 · February 2021

CP 1.0 was marketed as horizontal progression too. Now they are talking about the obvious power creep, but at the time, it was an "Horizontal progression".

CP 2.0 looks like an improvement but it seems that the power creep will still be there.

HankTwo · February 2021

Yeah, from my own calcs it looks like you would need around 2250 CP before the system would start to feel like horizontal progression. Depending on the build and playstyle, this number can even become significantly higher (hybrid in PvP).

So I don't understand why ZOS just flat out lied to our faces when they said it will be horizontal progression past 1200 CP. What was the point of that when players could just look and see for themselves a day after? Don't they understand their own system?

Overall the only way I can see them making this work is either:

a) Significantly reduce the amount of CP required to unlock all the non-slottable passives

b) Do a CP conversion where your current CP become 3 times their amount for the new system, or at least 2 times coupled with a hefty decrease in experience required to gain CP

FinrodMacBeorn · February 2021

Sgrug wrote: »

And that is ok. Why are so many people afraid of vertical progression? It is small enough as to not make a game-changing impact but large enough as to make people feel like they are growing. I am actually very impressed with ZoS on this iteration of CP changes.

+1300 mag/stam, +10% more damage, +15% more crit damage etc. have a game changing impact (here, on dds), and you can have most of them as many are passives.

I'm with you in so far as liking vertical progression. The current system, however, rewards mindless grinding instead of playing the game. I have 15 lvl 50 chars and almost 10k hours played, but "only" 1430 cp, as I almost did no grinding.

In all mmos which I know there is a cap (level cap raised once a year, +30 cp per quarter in ESO before stopping at 810, ...) which allows you to be at the cap most of the time. Grinding gets you to the cap perhaps 1-3 weeks earlier, but by regular play you reach the cap in a decent amount of time too. The exception are Asian grinders, but there you can buy shortcuts with real money.

To summarize:
I'm completely for vertical progression, but in a manner that people who play the game as its meant to be (overland content, dungeons, trials, pvp) are not significantly handicapped compared to people who spend the same time in game on grinding skyreach zombies.

mobicera · February 2021

Honestly I will quit this broken game before I grind for months just to be able to blue screen in the same trial I'm progressing in right now.
I mean how could they have thought that this cp rework was anything other than a ludicrous grind?
Now I admit the current cp system we have is in need of a rework.
However this rework should not include a grind on par to the xp required for every wow expansion through the years combined.
Its borderline delusional.

ThorianB · February 2021

Agalloch wrote: »

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/320594109750444043/804326559183011871/dd0c5d1.jpg

This is the conversion.

What official source is this from? Or is this conjecture and speculation?