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Are the Argonians in Blackwood apart of the ebonheart pact?

Cameron991
Cameron991
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I’m curious if Gideon and other argonian settlements in Blackwood are apart of the ebonheart pact during the dlc? I remember @ZOS_LeamonTuttle mentioned an argonian ebonheart veteran ruled over one of the lands in Blackwood(I don’t remember if it was Gideon or not) and the people followed him. So I wonder if this argonian (I don’t remember the name) is still apart of the pact and helping them still or if he retired from the alliance war and they are no longer apart of the pact. I’m quite curious any thoughts?
  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
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    From Argonian to Saxhleel by Vicecanon Heita-Meen - "There is still bitter blood flowing between many Saxhleel and our new allies, and not every tribe has joined us—only those of Thornmarsh, Shadowfen, and Murkmire. This is not a surprise. I hope that they will, in time, and realize that this opportunity we have been given to cultivate the understanding will allow us to preserve our way of life.".

    They are apart at least for now, but I hope they'll follow the example of their north-eastern brethren. At least I'll do whatever I can if I have such a choice. And I haven't read anything of that Argonian veteran. Where did the loremaster mention it?
  • Cameron991
    Cameron991
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    From Argonian to Saxhleel by Vicecanon Heita-Meen - "There is still bitter blood flowing between many Saxhleel and our new allies, and not every tribe has joined us—only those of Thornmarsh, Shadowfen, and Murkmire. This is not a surprise. I hope that they will, in time, and realize that this opportunity we have been given to cultivate the understanding will allow us to preserve our way of life.".

    They are apart at least for now, but I hope they'll follow the example of their north-eastern brethren. At least I'll do whatever I can if I have such a choice. And I haven't read anything of that Argonian veteran. Where did the loremaster mention it?

    It was in the reveal when they were talking about the lore of Blackwood they first talked leyawin and then he said something about the leader being a pact veteran maybe I can find the video
  • Cameron991
    Cameron991
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    From Argonian to Saxhleel by Vicecanon Heita-Meen - "There is still bitter blood flowing between many Saxhleel and our new allies, and not every tribe has joined us—only those of Thornmarsh, Shadowfen, and Murkmire. This is not a surprise. I hope that they will, in time, and realize that this opportunity we have been given to cultivate the understanding will allow us to preserve our way of life.".

    They are apart at least for now, but I hope they'll follow the example of their north-eastern brethren. At least I'll do whatever I can if I have such a choice. And I haven't read anything of that Argonian veteran. Where did the loremaster mention it?

    This is the video he says it around 13:40 he says “alliance war” so maybe I assumed he was ebonheart when maybe he was on a different side I’m not sure
  • Cameron991
    Cameron991
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    Here is the UESP article on the Keshu that Leamon was talking about.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Keshu

    The final section, 'The Black Fin Comes Home', will be of interest to you.
    General Keshu, known as the Black Fin, turned command of the Pact forces in Cyrodiil over to a Dark Elf general named Felisi Varo. Then, with a small group of companions that included myself, Vos-Huruk, Tee-Wan, Xocin, the Dark Elf twins Llensi and Meralyn, and the Nords Jod and Ulfbel, we departed the war-torn countryside and returned to Mournhold for a final meeting with Jorunn the Skald-King.

    "The more time I spend in this strange country, the more I miss the mountains and the snow," Jorunn said as we entered his audience chamber in the Dark Elf city. "Now tell me, Black Fin," he said, turning to face Keshu, "are you sure you want to do this?"

    Keshu raised the spine of affirmation and said, "I've done all I set out to do for you and the Pact, Jorunn. It's time for me to return to Black Marsh and do the same for my people."

    Jorunn nodded solemnly. "Then I can ask no more of you, my trusted friend," he said with a tear in his eye. "May Kyne guide you back home, Black Fin. And if you ever need my aid, you have but to ask."

    At those words, Keshu's eyes sparkled like the stars in the sky. "Well, there is a small matter," she said, and then she went on to explain how she was hoping to open Black Marsh to outsiders, especially crafters and artisans, to help expand the knowledge and experiences of her people. "I shall put out the word," Jorunn agreed. "And where should these crafters and artisans go? To Stormhold?"

    "No," Keshu replied. "Send them to Gideon."

    Keshu, however, led us to Gideon, the Imperial stronghold in central Black Marsh, where she was determined to establish a more inviting and vibrant "modern" Argonian society. Her plan, as she explained them to us during the journey, was to start out by bringing the things we learned and discovered during our time in Morrowind and Skyrim to Gideon, and then begin a series of quests to re-discover the secrets of the ancient Argonian civilization. "I do not want to change our culture," Keshu assured us. "I want to enhance it and bring back the glory we had and lost in ages past."

    We may not have all agreed with everything Keshu outlined on our journey home, but we believed in the Black Fin. We would follow her to Oblivion and back if she asked it of us. So it wasn't that far a leap to realize that we were going to help her achieve her dream for our people.

    It appears that Keshu and her Black Fin Legion have retired from the Alliance War, and are no longer actively supporting the Pact. They have turned their attention to building a new, modern Argonian society based out of Gideon and her veteran soldiers appear entirely loyal to her.

    It remains to be seen how the Imperials in Leyawiin will take to this sudden influx of lizards to its front-door, but a trade deal was struck between them and Gideon in 2E 582 (the year before the events of ESO) so presumably they have established positive relations.

    Awesome! Thanks for the info!
  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
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    "Awesome" button is to the right of the "Insightful" one, @Cameron991 :). Thank you for the video! In spite of the fact we are discussing an unreleased content yet, that was, awesome, indeed, @RemanCyrodiil_I! Thank you too! I'm glad Keshu's been still affiliated with the Pact - I'll definitely provide any assistance necessary to her in her goal to improve the life of her followers, if I have such an option.

    P.S.
    .. 2E 582 (the year before the events of ESO)

    The Birds of Wrothgar was corrected, 2E 583 was deleted. Leamon Tuttle - "So, time in-game is personal to you. Given that multiple players can play content in any order, we've resisted the push to advance to 2E 583. For that reason, we assume that all events of ESO take place in 2E 582".
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    "Awesome" button is to the right of the "Insightful" one, @Cameron991 :). Thank you for the video! In spite of the fact we are discussing an unreleased content yet, that was, awesome, indeed, @RemanCyrodiil_I! Thank you too! I'm glad Keshu's been still affiliated with the Pact - I'll definitely provide any assistance necessary to her in her goal to improve the life of her followers, if I have such an option.

    P.S.
    .. 2E 582 (the year before the events of ESO)

    The Birds of Wrothgar was corrected, 2E 583 was deleted. Leamon Tuttle - "So, time in-game is personal to you. Given that multiple players can play content in any order, we've resisted the push to advance to 2E 583. For that reason, we assume that all events of ESO take place in 2E 582".

    really saying that it depends on the order you play it

    me I'll say that 6 years have passed since the plane meld
  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    "Awesome" button is to the right of the "Insightful" one, @Cameron991 :). Thank you for the video! In spite of the fact we are discussing an unreleased content yet, that was, awesome, indeed, @RemanCyrodiil_I! Thank you too! I'm glad Keshu's been still affiliated with the Pact - I'll definitely provide any assistance necessary to her in her goal to improve the life of her followers, if I have such an option.

    P.S.
    .. 2E 582 (the year before the events of ESO)

    The Birds of Wrothgar was corrected, 2E 583 was deleted. Leamon Tuttle - "So, time in-game is personal to you. Given that multiple players can play content in any order, we've resisted the push to advance to 2E 583. For that reason, we assume that all events of ESO take place in 2E 582".

    really saying that it depends on the order you play it

    me I'll say that 6 years have passed since the plane meld

    I understand what do you mean, but objectively it doesn't. To somebody it's now Fredas, Midyear 8th, 2E 610 (according to the day and night cycle), to you it might be 2E 588, etc. The year of 3E 427 when I met Vivec for the first time was 18 years ago to me. From Vivec's perspective it was our second meeting, and those events were the only reason I helped him today, in 2E 582, "in past" of that world. But today, in 2E 582, it's our second meeting with him to me, and our first one to him. The very reason I helped him with his troubles caused by Barbas today, in 2E 582, are still ahead, it will happen in 741 years in future, but that future is already a certain past to me. A past I also might turn into present any time I like and able to. A time paradox, but likewise a simple thing to understand when you deal with two realities instead of just one, two universes like Aurbis and our "real" one. It is my subjective experience only, but regarding the timeline and specific years I speak of the objective things, i.e. common to the vast majority including the NPC, not the ones existing in the experience or the minds of some individuals only. My experience that is not recognized by the world of the game does not exist to you, to you it's a lie, just like yours is a lie to me. Objective things are things that can be true to both of us. Say, like my Temple Knight achievement proving me to be a Hand of Almalexia and thus an Ordinator, or your Grand Warlord rank in Alliance War.

    Were your approach right, were, say, the day and night cycle really defining the year in that world, and thus were it the 2E 610, Emeric would have either been dead or an 89 years old man, instead of 61 he's now. Jorunn would have been 64 instead of 36. I would still have been a 25 - 30 years old guy just because I want it, and I feel it that way ;). But it all doesn't happen, because things do not work that way. Regarding the reality of Nirn, I suppose Raynor described it the best way - "Don't think of time and space as a road upon which you travel, but rather a rope, or a cable. Many threads, all bound together with no beginning or end". There is no difference what order you play it - all the events happen simultaneously as soon as the observer, a player, a Prisoner (as Sotha Sil called us, players), a Hero of an Elder Scroll triggers them. But it all happens in 2E 582 - the year defined by the creators of that world, the developers, or, speaking with the in-game words, by the Seven Divines and other et'Ada. "Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event" - really wise words.
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    "Awesome" button is to the right of the "Insightful" one, @Cameron991 :). Thank you for the video! In spite of the fact we are discussing an unreleased content yet, that was, awesome, indeed, @RemanCyrodiil_I! Thank you too! I'm glad Keshu's been still affiliated with the Pact - I'll definitely provide any assistance necessary to her in her goal to improve the life of her followers, if I have such an option.

    P.S.
    .. 2E 582 (the year before the events of ESO)

    The Birds of Wrothgar was corrected, 2E 583 was deleted. Leamon Tuttle - "So, time in-game is personal to you. Given that multiple players can play content in any order, we've resisted the push to advance to 2E 583. For that reason, we assume that all events of ESO take place in 2E 582".

    really saying that it depends on the order you play it

    me I'll say that 6 years have passed since the plane meld

    I understand what do you mean, but objectively it doesn't. To somebody it's now Fredas, Midyear 8th, 2E 610 (according to the day and night cycle), to you it might be 2E 588, etc. The year of 3E 427 when I met Vivec for the first time was 18 years ago to me. From Vivec's perspective it was our second meeting, and those events were the only reason I helped him today, in 2E 582, "in past" of that world. But today, in 2E 582, it's our second meeting with him to me, and our first one to him. The very reason I helped him with his troubles caused by Barbas today, in 2E 582, are still ahead, it will happen in 741 years in future, but that future is already a certain past to me. A past I also might turn into present any time I like and able to. A time paradox, but likewise a simple thing to understand when you deal with two realities instead of just one, two universes like Aurbis and our "real" one. It is my subjective experience only, but regarding the timeline and specific years I speak of the objective things, i.e. common to the vast majority including the NPC, not the ones existing in the experience or the minds of some individuals only. My experience that is not recognized by the world of the game does not exist to you, to you it's a lie, just like yours is a lie to me. Objective things are things that can be true to both of us. Say, like my Temple Knight achievement proving me to be a Hand of Almalexia and thus an Ordinator, or your Grand Warlord rank in Alliance War.

    Were your approach right, were, say, the day and night cycle really defining the year in that world, and thus were it the 2E 610, Emeric would have either been dead or an 89 years old man, instead of 61 he's now. Jorunn would have been 64 instead of 36. I would still have been a 25 - 30 years old guy just because I want it, and I feel it that way ;). But it all doesn't happen, because things do not work that way. Regarding the reality of Nirn, I suppose Raynor described it the best way - "Don't think of time and space as a road upon which you travel, but rather a rope, or a cable. Many threads, all bound together with no beginning or end". There is no difference what order you play it - all the events happen simultaneously as soon as the observer, a player, a Prisoner (as Sotha Sil called us, players), a Hero of an Elder Scroll triggers them. But it all happens in 2E 582 - the year defined by the creators of that world, the developers, or, speaking with the in-game words, by the Seven Divines and other et'Ada. "Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event" - really wise words.

    except we know that time does pass forward if you play it in order

    before they changed it, Orsinium actually took place in 583 - this was noted in the letters and journals found in the landscape.

    In Elsweyr Tharn will talk to you like years have passed since you last met.

    The narrative is written in a way that time has passed but they don't make that definitive for everyone - because everyone plays it in a different order. This was not a lore decision they made - it's a gameplay decision to not confuse people who started in the latest chapters. Simple as that

    (EDIT: Also of course I am not going to take the day/night cycle seriously - that's ridiculous)
    Edited by Iccotak on January 31, 2021 6:43PM
  • Kajuratus
    Kajuratus
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    From Argonian to Saxhleel by Vicecanon Heita-Meen - "There is still bitter blood flowing between many Saxhleel and our new allies, and not every tribe has joined us—only those of Thornmarsh, Shadowfen, and Murkmire. This is not a surprise. I hope that they will, in time, and realize that this opportunity we have been given to cultivate the understanding will allow us to preserve our way of life.".

    They are apart at least for now, but I hope they'll follow the example of their north-eastern brethren. At least I'll do whatever I can if I have such a choice. And I haven't read anything of that Argonian veteran. Where did the loremaster mention it?

    Whats important to note is that this quote is from a time when Murkmire was going to be the zone south of Shadowfen, containing the city of Gideon. Later in the Murkmire Q&A Jee Lar states that Murkmire is most definitely autonomous, although there are Pact envoys trying to recruit folks in Lilmoth. I would hazard a guess that the Black Fin Legion that is stated to be loyal to Keshu is a member of the Pact, effectively making Gideon a Pact city. As to how Heita-Meen managed to confuse eastern Blackwood and Murkmire? Who knows, maybe there is an in universe confusion about what region of Black Marsh is called Murkmire. Maybe the Argonians don't really care too much about the names of regions, and switch them around all the time. Maybe the naming conventions are personal for each Argonian tribe.
    Edited by Kajuratus on June 9, 2021 8:57PM
    So the Dark Elves have weird alien architecture, where people live in mushroom towers and the shell of a giant crab, but the High Elves, the pinnacle of technology, the most magically advanced race in Tamriel, are still stuck in slightly pretty, fairly tall stone buildings? Not even a hint of a glass city? Are stainless glass windows really enough to claim that a city is made of glass?
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