PvP Heavy Attack Build (Greymoor) - Heavy Attack Hero | BGs | Cyrodiil | IC | Groups | Zergs | Enjoy

Unified_Gaming · July 2020

So - I was asked can a heavy attack PVP build work? Well - I made it happen. Here is the Heavy Attack Hero is otherwise known as HAH! Consistently we hit 3-4k+ per tick of a lightning staff and often land 15-20k heavy attacks at range. If we use the maelstrom lightning staff than we can easily do 4-7k per tick of the lightning staff in pvp. I thought people might find this helpful as it actually works in lag, unlike many other builds. Is this a 1vX build no but will this help people who are new to pvp dish out damage - yes and that's what it is aimed to do. Help people hit harder with minimal effort. There are multiple setups for all people - tanky, high damage, or double up as a healer. Thankfully, the build is also getting a damage buff next patch so it will work too so don't panic about setting it up.

See it for yourself in action (gameplay in the entire video) as well as the build itself.

https://youtu.be/eAXvkKzm3Pw

I hope you enjoy and feel free to leave a comment and check the channel out.

Anyron · July 2020

Your duel partners have trash stam pools. Got CCed without breaking even from start. I wouldnt post this as victory

But, interesting build you have. Seems to be mostly working because of fossilize and leap though

RiskyChalice863 · July 2020

This is pretty similar to what I discussed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492160/undaunted-heavy-attack-pvp-build-magplar-and-magdk/p1

Obviously, that thread is pretty old, so some of it is outdated. Of particular note, the big off balance changes were made after the OP and are therefore only discussed later in the thread, and so much of the thread is very focused on a somewhat outdated skill setup that would keep off balance procced all the time.

Your skills and gear beyond the UI/UU combo are slightly different as well, but not massively different and is perhaps reflective of changes in gear and skills since then (including introduction of mythic items). For instance, I preferred the extra armor from a defensive monster set combo back then, but those have since been nerfed. Inner Beast got that 5% damage buff added to it, making it an option to proc UU. And I used Elusive Mist in the past, but I’m not sure that it’s worth it for this build now with the vampire changes.

A few big things I found with this type of build:

- Keeping UU procced can be a real pain in terms of stamina sustain. I play mostly BGs, and I find that using a stamina skill every 10 seconds in a fight is a really significant stamina drain—particularly since magicka characters already have stamina sustain problems in BGs. I know you’ve gone Dark Elf to help with some with stamina sustain, but I suspect it’s still a bit of an issue, at least in BGs. Anyways, MagDKs don’t have a cheap stamina dump skill like other classes. You use Inner Beast to proc UU, which is a pretty good option now because of the 5% damage buff and because it’s fairly cheap. That said, another option is Crushing Weapon. It doesn’t actually do anything, but since it restores a huge portion of the cost when you don’t consume it (which heavy attacking doesn’t do), using that to proc UU helps with stamina sustain a lot.

- Keeping UU and UI procced can also be a huge pain in terms of wasted global cooldowns in crucial situations. The damage output of this kind of build really depends on having both UU and UI procced, but their effects only last 10 seconds each. So, in order to keep your heavy attack damage up, you really need to be proccing them a lot in fights. Granted, you’ll naturally proc UI a lot of the time. But UU is more of a pain. And I found it not infrequent that I’d get someone low and want to keep the pressure on, only for one or maybe even both of UU and UI to fall off, making my pressure pretty low unless I effectively take one or two GCDs to buff up my heavy attack damage again (by which point someone has often healed up again). If Leap is up, it can solve that problem a lot of the time, but it’s not a perfect solution since it’s an ultimate. For similar reasons, it can make it harder to turn defense into offense, since if I’m on the defensive for a while, UU will typically have fallen off, and then if I want to turn to offense by using Leap and then follow up the Leap with lots of damage, I’ll have to fit in the UU proc somewhere—which lowers the amount of quick pressure I can put on in that situation.

- To add to the clunkiness, a huge portion of the damage on this type of build comes from proccing off balance. Of course, you can no longer have off balance up on someone 100% of the time, which was a big nerf to this kind of build. But even when you can proc it, it’s a bit of a pain with a DK, since it’s a two-GCD process (first Fossilize, then Flame Lash) and cannot be done on demand from a distance. This makes the setup time to do your optimal damage even higher. To get to that peak level of damage, you need to use three GCDs (stamina ability + Fossilize + Flame Lash). That’s a lot of setup and feels clunky. Do other builds require use of several buffs before doing your full damage? Sure. But most builds still do somewhat close to their full damage without the buffs. Here, those buffs basically ARE the damage so if you attack someone without the buffs on or let the buffs fall off briefly in a fight, you basically lose your damage. In my experience, it ends up feeling clunky as a result, and basically forces you to use multiple global cooldowns to set up your attack in situations where you’d normally want to just pressure immediately—sometimes allowing an opponent to recover their health or put you on the back foot while you’re trying to just set up your damage.

- I also found that the healing on this sort of build really isn’t very good. UU and UI don’t boost healing very much. The result is a build with quite low healing output. Some of this is mitigated by how good the magicka sustain is on a heavy attack build. When you end up on the defensive, you’ll often start that situation with full magicka since your offensive combos basically gain you magicka due to heavy attacks. So you’ll usually have lots of magicka to work with when on the defensive. But you just won’t be able to outheal significant amounts of damage. This is exacerbated by the fact that it’s a DK build— MagDKs have pretty lackluster self healing since Coagulating Blood is pretty bad. Flame Lash can help with this, but it’s not a heal on demand (since you need a stun or immobilize first) and takes some setup time.

Overall, I found this build to be pretty good, and I had a lot of success with it. I’ve not tried it on this patch, and it may actually be even better than before since it relies on sustained damage and the nerf to healing in PvP should make that more effective. But what I eventually found was that it was a bit clunky to utilize properly, and that I could output better sustained damage just by playing a Magplar—and that the Magplar would also have significantly better self healing (albeit a Magplar does also need to be more in the thick of things).

Unified_Gaming · July 2020

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

This is pretty similar to what I discussed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492160/undaunted-heavy-attack-pvp-build-magplar-and-magdk/p1

Obviously, that thread is pretty old, so some of it is outdated. Of particular note, the big off balance changes were made after the OP and are therefore only discussed later in the thread, and so much of the thread is very focused on a somewhat outdated skill setup that would keep off balance procced all the time.

Your skills and gear beyond the UI/UU combo are slightly different as well, but not massively different and is perhaps reflective of changes in gear and skills since then (including introduction of mythic items). For instance, I preferred the extra armor from a defensive monster set combo back then, but those have since been nerfed. Inner Beast got that 5% damage buff added to it, making it an option to proc UU. And I used Elusive Mist in the past, but I’m not sure that it’s worth it for this build now with the vampire changes.

A few big things I found with this type of build:

- Keeping UU procced can be a real pain in terms of stamina sustain. I play mostly BGs, and I find that using a stamina skill every 10 seconds in a fight is a really significant stamina drain—particularly since magicka characters already have stamina sustain problems in BGs. I know you’ve gone Dark Elf to help with some with stamina sustain, but I suspect it’s still a bit of an issue, at least in BGs. Anyways, MagDKs don’t have a cheap stamina dump skill like other classes. You use Inner Beast to proc UU, which is a pretty good option now because of the 5% damage buff and because it’s fairly cheap. That said, another option is Crushing Weapon. It doesn’t actually do anything, but since it restores a huge portion of the cost when you don’t consume it (which heavy attacking doesn’t do), using that to proc UU helps with stamina sustain a lot.

- Keeping UU and UI procced can also be a huge pain in terms of wasted global cooldowns in crucial situations. The damage output of this kind of build really depends on having both UU and UI procced, but their effects only last 10 seconds each. So, in order to keep your heavy attack damage up, you really need to be proccing them a lot in fights. Granted, you’ll naturally proc UI a lot of the time. But UU is more of a pain. And I found it not infrequent that I’d get someone low and want to keep the pressure on, only for one or maybe even both of UU and UI to fall off, making my pressure pretty low unless I effectively take one or two GCDs to buff up my heavy attack damage again (by which point someone has often healed up again). If Leap is up, it can solve that problem a lot of the time, but it’s not a perfect solution since it’s an ultimate. For similar reasons, it can make it harder to turn defense into offense, since if I’m on the defensive for a while, UU will typically have fallen off, and then if I want to turn to offense by using Leap and then follow up the Leap with lots of damage, I’ll have to fit in the UU proc somewhere—which lowers the amount of quick pressure I can put on in that situation.

- To add to the clunkiness, a huge portion of the damage on this type of build comes from proccing off balance. Of course, you can no longer have off balance up on someone 100% of the time, which was a big nerf to this kind of build. But even when you can proc it, it’s a bit of a pain with a DK, since it’s a two-GCD process (first Fossilize, then Flame Lash) and cannot be done on demand from a distance. This makes the setup time to do your optimal damage even higher. To get to that peak level of damage, you need to use three GCDs (stamina ability + Fossilize + Flame Lash). That’s a lot of setup and feels clunky. Do other builds require use of several buffs before doing your full damage? Sure. But most builds still do somewhat close to their full damage without the buffs. Here, those buffs basically ARE the damage so if you attack someone without the buffs on or let the buffs fall off briefly in a fight, you basically lose your damage. In my experience, it ends up feeling clunky as a result, and basically forces you to use multiple global cooldowns to set up your attack in situations where you’d normally want to just pressure immediately—sometimes allowing an opponent to recover their health or put you on the back foot while you’re trying to just set up your damage.

- I also found that the healing on this sort of build really isn’t very good. UU and UI don’t boost healing very much. The result is a build with quite low healing output. Some of this is mitigated by how good the magicka sustain is on a heavy attack build. When you end up on the defensive, you’ll often start that situation with full magicka since your offensive combos basically gain you magicka due to heavy attacks. So you’ll usually have lots of magicka to work with when on the defensive. But you just won’t be able to outheal significant amounts of damage. This is exacerbated by the fact that it’s a DK build— MagDKs have pretty lackluster self healing since Coagulating Blood is pretty bad. Flame Lash can help with this, but it’s not a heal on demand (since you need a stun or immobilize first) and takes some setup time.

Overall, I found this build to be pretty good, and I had a lot of success with it. I’ve not tried it on this patch, and it may actually be even better than before since it relies on sustained damage and the nerf to healing in PvP should make that more effective. But what I eventually found was that it was a bit clunky to utilize properly, and that I could output better sustained damage just by playing a Magplar—and that the Magplar would also have significantly better self healing (albeit a Magplar does also need to be more in the thick of things).

I like the idea with the stamina morph of elemental weapon to help stam sustain. I find as you'll see in the video and gameplay that stamina isn't the issue to be honest and keeping the sets up is pretty easy as we can proc one then swap cancel the next before going into masters staff and heavy attack twice. The damage is also high regardless of off balance or not as it is hard to get that from dk easily - I tick 3k+ per tick of lightning staff at range and it often gets to 4.5k-5k per tick of the staff which for the playstyle is perfect. It is made to be in a group and for you to use 2 skills and just hold heavy attack knowing you're actually doing pretty decent damage

I would say give it a go and even more so next patch as it is getting a big buff!

Anyron wrote: »

Your duel partners have trash stam pools. Got CCed without breaking even from start. I wouldnt post this as victory

But, interesting build you have. Seems to be mostly working because of fossilize and leap though

the damage works at range too as you will see.

katorga · July 2020

FYI this is getting buffed like next patch. I don't know how the math works, but these sets have a dramatic impact on lightning heavy attacks.

The undaunted sets are getting the resources swapped. Light will have magicka, medium stamina.

They are getting the buff changed to 1600 damage to light and heavy attacks for 10 seconds. Huge.

I used to run this as a farming build back the day. Unkillable, huge damage. I may have to dust it off and try it again.

Unified_Gaming · July 2020

katorga wrote: »

FYI this is getting buffed like next patch. I don't know how the math works, but these sets have a dramatic impact on lightning heavy attacks.

The undaunted sets are getting the resources swapped. Light will have magicka, medium stamina.

They are getting the buff changed to 1600 damage to light and heavy attacks for 10 seconds. Huge.

I used to run this as a farming build back the day. Unkillable, huge damage. I may have to dust it off and try it again.

Effectively a 113% incrase

Luckylancer · July 2020

Are those deal more damage than knightslayer?

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 8% of their Maximum Health as Oblivion Damage. This can deal a maximum of 8000 Oblivion Damage.

As it is oblivioun damage it is not halved by battle spirit and it goes trough armor and resistances too.

Unified_Gaming · July 2020

Luckylancer wrote: »

Are those deal more damage than knightslayer?

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 8% of their Maximum Health as Oblivion Damage. This can deal a maximum of 8000 Oblivion Damage.

As it is oblivioun damage it is not halved by battle spirit and it goes trough armor and resistances too.

Yes as against most targets knight slayer does 1-2k approx whereas the sets we use buff both lohht and heavy attacks

Grianasteri · November 2020

@Unified_Gaming

So does the UU 1685 additional damage to the lightning staff heavy attack ticks and the last hit, actually do more damage over all, than the Infallible Aether sets 900 additional damage to the lightning staff heavy attack ticks and the last hit + 5% additional damage from minor vulnerability from all your damage sources...

Id love to see calculations, because it must be close. Or maybe it just seems that way but isnt...

Also whatever the outcome of the above comparison, say you drop Undaunted Infiltrator for IA... so youd then also get the 2, 3 and 4 piece magic focused stats that you lose out on with UI, as well as the 5th piece from IA... surely that outperforms UI over all? Or again, maybe not!

Its possible these have been answered in the thread already, if so soz.

Ive recently considered changing one of my pve DKs into a pvp character, because he hardly ever gets played in pve, Im just not a fan of the playstyle... but for pvp maybe this kind of set up could be good for a lazy laugh

ps, as a side... does anyone know if IA procs Icy Conjuror?... the wording suggests it may do... which could be... fun.

Unified_Gaming · November 2020

Grianasteri wrote: »

@Unified_Gaming

So does the UU 1685 additional damage to the lightning staff heavy attack ticks and the last hit, actually do more damage over all, than the Infallible Aether sets 900 additional damage to the lightning staff heavy attack ticks and the last hit + 5% additional damage from minor vulnerability from all your damage sources...

Id love to see calculations, because it must be close. Or maybe it just seems that way but isnt...

Also whatever the outcome of the above comparison, say you drop Undaunted Infiltrator for IA... so youd then also get the 2, 3 and 4 piece magic focused stats that you lose out on with UI, as well as the 5th piece from IA... surely that outperforms UI over all? Or again, maybe not!

Its possible these have been answered in the thread already, if so soz.

Ive recently considered changing one of my pve DKs into a pvp character, because he hardly ever gets played in pve, Im just not a fan of the playstyle... but for pvp maybe this kind of set up could be good for a lazy laugh

ps, as a side... does anyone know if IA procs Icy Conjuror?... the wording suggests it may do... which could be... fun.

I tested on a dummy and on a player. IA needs the full heavy to get the debuff and the loss between undaunted unweaver is just a big drawback and the extra stam we get means can cast inner beast for more damage .

RiskyChalice863 · December 2020

@Unified_Gaming

I just watched your new video—released today—with an updated version of this build. It was a great video!

I was glad to see you have come around to using Crushing Weapon to proc UU. I do think that’s the play on the DK.

Since our above discussion, I too have come to the same conclusion as you that putting 64 points into health is ideal for this build.

That said, I do have some fairly lengthy thoughts/comments regarding the build:

- While I think Crushing Weapon is the play on a DK (since it is really cheap and can be used before a fight), I think it helpful to have another stamina ability on your bar that is actually of value in a fight. Otherwise, in a longer fight, those dead GCDs from using Crushing Weapon can be pretty unfortunate. So I’ve come around to using Spiked Bone Shield too. When you stack health Spiked Bone Shield is actually a pretty good ability, and, in the middle of a fight, getting a solid damage shield that has damage return has a lot more value than the nothing you get from Crushing Weapon. The stamina sustain won’t be there to use it all the time, but I really like being able to avoid dead GCDs at least somewhat. There may not be room on your bar for this as a DK, but there’s definitely room on my Templar version (see more below on the Templar version).

- I’m not sure that Malacath is actually worth it on this build. The issue I have with it is that Malacath’s 25% damage boost is additive and you’re stacking tons of other percent damage boosts onto your heavy attack damage. This lowers the relative value of Malacath compared to crits. For instance, if you’ve got Molten Armaments up and have just used Structured Entropy, you’ve already got a 90% damage boost on heavy attacks. Malacath simply makes that 90% boost a 115% boost. Thus, assuming no-CP (and therefore no other percent damage boosts), Malacath actually only adds about a 13% damage boost to your heavy attacks (because 2.15/1.90 = 1.13). If the person is also off balance, then Malacath only adds a 9.6% damage boost. With these sorts of numbers, giving up critical hits actually makes Malacath not add a whole lot. For instance, if you have Major Prophecy, you will get like a 35.7% crit chance with 50% crit damage on the DK, in no-CP. If someone isn’t running impen gear, that means that crits will add, on average, an 11% damage boost (because 0.357*(0.5-0.2) = 0.11). So you could easily do more damage on an off balance opponent without Malacath than with it, and you wouldn’t do much more even without off balance. Of course, people do run impen (which lowers the value of crits), you have some other small damage components outside of heavy attacks (which will get the full 25% boost from Malacath), and you’ll sometimes be attacking people with heavy attacks without the empower or off balance buffs up (in which case, Malacath is more like a 16.7% damage boost). So, overall, Malacath is very likely to add damage (at least in no-CP; Malacath will scale even worse in CP, where there’s even more additive damage bonuses, and you can ramp up crit chance and damage more), even if in certain scenarios it will be a detriment. But Malacath also takes an item slot. I choose to run Maw of the Infernal on my version of this, and if I ran Malacath, I could not run that monster set (unless I wanted to have UU and UI only proc on different bars, which is a real pain and IMO not at all worth it). I think having crits and Maw of the Infernal gives me more damage than Malacath and 1pc Skoria would.

- I think a Charged trait might be better on the staff than an Infused trait. You get a ton of damage from putting people off balance, and having a Charged trait instead of an Infused trait allows you to have a significantly higher chance of proccing off balance when you use Wall of Elements. Of course, you lose damage from the enchant, but if you only wanted damage, then a sharpened weapon is quite likely better anyways.

- I’ve played DK and Templar versions of this build, and I actually like the Templar version a good bit better. While Molten Armaments gives a 50% damage boost, you get a 40% damage boost for 10 seconds from Solar Barrage (which also is a AOE DoT and procs minor sorcery and UI). So it’s not very far off in that regard. Meanwhile, I think the Templar version has a number of pretty significant advantages:

It can proc off balance really easily with Toppling Charge. This is a huge deal, since off balance gives you a 70% damage boost on your heavy attacks. The DK can proc off balance with Wall of Elements or with Fossilize + Whip, but those are nowhere near as instant or reliable (and the only way to make it remotely reliable involves using a Charged trait, which sacrifices significant damage). And this is a particularly big deal because Toppling Charge also stuns. So you are basically guaranteed to have your damage peak (i.e. attacking an off balance opponent) coincide perfectly with a stun. That’s nowhere near as reliable, automatic, or instant on the DK. In theory, DKs could get a notably higher semi-burst damage peak by combining Molten Armaments, Empower, and off balance. But, in practice, lining up all of that at once can be difficult, and even more difficult to line up with a stun (i.e. preventing someone from blocking, escaping, or healing through it). So, even if the DK has more damage than the Templar’s peak of Empower and off balance, the Templar’s peak is better IMO, because it’s super easy to line it all up and have it coincide with a stun.
Restoring Focus is a better ability to proc Undaunted Unweaver than Crushing Weapon. Crushing Weapon is good on a DK because it is cheap and can be procced without a target. But it doesn’t actually do anything (besides giving you the Psijic damage shield on block, I suppose). Restoring Focus is similarly cheap and can also be procced without a target, but also gives you a ton of stuff (armor buff, really good stamina sustain, and minor mending). So the Templar version is notably more efficient with its global cooldowns than the DK version is.
The Templar gets some nice damage boosts for this build. The 10% extra crit damage is actually really good for this build (assuming you don’t use Malacath—see above on that), because crit damage actually increases the UU/UI set damage (as opposed to stats like spell power that do not affect the set damage). Similarly, the 10% extra damage on blocking opponents scales with the set damage too, and is particularly nice here since lightning heavy attacks cannot be dodged or reflected, so blocking is the best way to mitigate it
Magicka sustain on the Templar version is significantly better. DK abilities are just much more expensive, and they don’t have the Templar’s cost reduction passive. I find on the Templar version that I legitimately never run out of magicka despite being a stage 3 vampire, running zero sources of magicka recovery in my build, and not even bothering to use potions most of the time. Your video notes that you recommend running at least one magicka recovery glyph. The Templar version can definitely run something else instead.
The Templar version has significantly more mobility. Because I run Restoring Focus, I can basically sprint without almost any stamina cost. In theory, battle roar plus the helping hands passive give DKs stamina sustain regardless of sprint or block too, but in practice I found I can’t sprint nearly as much without having stamina issues (mostly I think because, like you, I don’t use ult off cooldown). Also, on the Templar, I’ve got a gap closer (while heavy attacks are long range, a gap closer is really nice, in order to stop people from LOSing you).
As with any Templar build, you obviously get a great purge. I find this is quite helpful on a build that lacks stats and therefore doesn’t have very high healing. DoT pressure can overwhelm your HoTs more easily than on other builds, so having a purge is great

All that said, DKs do have a potential advantage in the sense that they can stack Molten Armaments AND Empower, using a Mage’s Guild ability (as you suggest in your video). I’ve not really tested this since I’ve never gotten Mage’s Guild to level 10—the grind is too much for me on that—and I found Empowering Chains wasn’t that great for these purposes. That said, the DK can only get 3 seconds of empower at a time, meaning that to utilize this you’d basically have to stop and cast an ability like Structured Entropy after every heavy attack, which is a significant DPS loss (not to mention basically negating the magicka gain from your heavy attacks). My back of the napkin calculations indicate that getting the empower buff and Molten Armaments buff but having to cast Structured Entropy after every heavy attack actually results in only really similar DPS to having Molten Armaments or Solar Barrage but being able to constantly heavy attack, so I don’t put a whole lot of value on this (though, again, I’ve not tested it with Structured Entropy, so I can’t say for sure).

The DK also gets Leap, which is a really good ultimate. That said, the stats on this build are low enough that Leap’s damage isn’t actually that good (such that it’s not even so clear that it’s worth using for damage over just continuing to heavy attack), and I use resto ult a ton for the survivability (which Leap is good for too, but Resto ult is obviously even better). So I’m not sure Leap is a huge benefit, though it probably is a decent benefit if you’re not running a resto staff (in which case, a Templar could run Crescent, or Ice Comet, or Swarming Scion or Destro ult—all of which are decent but probably not as good as Leap).

RiskyChalice863 · December 2020

Oh also @Unified_Gaming another thought:

I don’t really think Dark Elf actually is the best race for this.

For one thing, spell damage isn’t really very important on this build. It helps your heals, of course, but the vast majority of your damage comes from heavy attacks, and the vast majority of your heavy attack damage comes from the UU and UI set damage, which are unaffected by spell damage. So the heavy attack damage scales really badly with spell damage. Given that, I think you’re likely better off running something like Nord that gives you bonuses that aren’t massively less useful than normal.

And I tend to think High Elf is strictly superior to Dark Elf with this. You get the same spell damage, and slightly more magicka, so the damage and healing is even better (albeit by a very tiny margin). You have lower total stamina than a Dark Elf, but none of your damage scales on stamina, so the stamina pool is only helpful for stamina sustain and you have quite significant, and very likely better, stamina sustain on the High Elf from Spell Recharge. Meanwhile, the Dark Elf has the extra flame resistance and immunity to burning—which are quite nice on a vampire. But the High Elf’s 5% damage reduction while channeling is quite a big deal on a heavy attack build, so I would think that’d give you a decent bit more survivability than a Dark Elf. In other words, I think the High Elf gets slightly more damage, better stamina sustain, and more survivability. So unless you know you’ll be facing tons of flame damage, I’d think there’d be little reason to choose Dark Elf over High Elf.

Sergykid · January 2021

this "heavy attack" playstyle has much better competitors in decent level pvp. You won't get far with heavy attacks while your opponent uses actual abilities or proc sets. You don't have in your sets healing or defense, and the damage is lower than other proc sets. 1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling, while other sets give free 4k damage instantly. There is a reason this is not a thing in decent level pvp.
The results in such a playstyle are good for the things you offer, but there are alternatives where you get more for less. Like heavy armor proc sets, or damage oriented build with actual abilities. I will hit you harder with two dots on you and spamming sweeps than you doing your heavy attack on me, in the time i have better heals and defense than you.

RiskyChalice863 · January 2021

Sergykid wrote: »

this "heavy attack" playstyle has much better competitors in decent level pvp. You won't get far with heavy attacks while your opponent uses actual abilities or proc sets. You don't have in your sets healing or defense, and the damage is lower than other proc sets. 1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling, while other sets give free 4k damage instantly. There is a reason this is not a thing in decent level pvp.
The results in such a playstyle are good for the things you offer, but there are alternatives where you get more for less. Like heavy armor proc sets, or damage oriented build with actual abilities. I will hit you harder with two dots on you and spamming sweeps than you doing your heavy attack on me, in the time i have better heals and defense than you.

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think you realize how much damage a heavy attack build can do, even if you build in lots of defense. The biggest thing you’re not getting is clearly revealed when you portray heavy attack builds as doing “1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling.” That’s not how it works. When you use a lightning staff, Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver apply their extra damage to every single tick of the lightning heavy attack. So these sets each apply their damage 4 times in every 2.2 second heavy attack channel. And the damage from these sets doesn’t behave like most proc sets do, in that it’s not a separate damage source. Rather, it simply adds to the heavy attack’s damage amount. That is really crucial, because it means that the huge percent damage modifiers you put on heavy attacks (40% from empower, 50% from Molten Armaments, 70% on off balance opponents, etc.) all increase the damage from these sets. It’s also crucial because it means that the damage from the sets can crit. Put that all together and the damage potential of these sets is really big. For instance, if a DK has Molten Armaments on, casts a Mage’s Guild ability, and then heavy attacks an off balance opponent, these two sets combined can add over 35k of crit-able damage to a single heavy attack.

With that kind of damage potential from those sets, you can easily build in lots of defense and whatnot, while still having plenty of damage. For instance, I can run a Nord health-based Templar heavy attack build that has heavy attacks that, in no-CP, do 11.6k tooltip damage per second when the target is not off balance and 17.3k tooltip damage per second on off balance opponents (and I can set off balance easily with Toppling Charge), with 10,903 penetration (more actually, since the destro staff passive makes you ignore 10% of someone’s resistances upfront), and a 35.7% crit chance with 60% crit damage. That damage is applied in an AOE around your target, cannot be dodged or reflected, and I do ten percent more damage to blocking opponents. Meanwhile, in no-CP, a build with that kind of damage can also have 31.7k health, 27.7 spell resistance, 23.2k physical resistance, the Vampire Undeath passive, minor protection, and full impen gear. It can run a healing monster set like Earthgore or Chokethorn, the high health means it can run Spiked Bone Shield for a good damage shield, and it can farm resto ults really frequently (high ult gen from being Nord, and resto ult can be the primary ult you use). It has laughably easy magicka sustain because it’s a heavy attack build. This build also has 1k stamina recovery in no-CP, along with 240 extra stamina a second from Restoring Focus, and a 19k stamina pool, so you can sprint, dodge, block, and break free essentially at will.

I can tell you as a factual matter, I’ve been in BGs where everyone in the BG is a good player and running heavy armor with proc sets, super tanky werewolf builds with crimson, etc, and I recognize the players themselves as people who I know are good. And this sort of build has more than held its own.

Sergykid · January 2021

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

this "heavy attack" playstyle has much better competitors in decent level pvp. You won't get far with heavy attacks while your opponent uses actual abilities or proc sets. You don't have in your sets healing or defense, and the damage is lower than other proc sets. 1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling, while other sets give free 4k damage instantly. There is a reason this is not a thing in decent level pvp.
The results in such a playstyle are good for the things you offer, but there are alternatives where you get more for less. Like heavy armor proc sets, or damage oriented build with actual abilities. I will hit you harder with two dots on you and spamming sweeps than you doing your heavy attack on me, in the time i have better heals and defense than you.

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think you realize how much damage a heavy attack build can do, even if you build in lots of defense. The biggest thing you’re not getting is clearly revealed when you portray heavy attack builds as doing “1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling.” That’s not how it works. When you use a lightning staff, Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver apply their extra damage to every single tick of the lightning heavy attack. So these sets each apply their damage 4 times in every 2.2 second heavy attack channel. And the damage from these sets doesn’t behave like most proc sets do, in that it’s not a separate damage source. Rather, it simply adds to the heavy attack’s damage amount.

it adds at the end, the proc set damage is not calculated by all those modifiers like off balance. If your heavy attack deals 5k and then with off balance 8.5k, with the proc set you will deal 10k with it having 1.5k damage added. It is not added to the 5k base value reaching 6.5k and then with off balance to reach 11k.
Have you tried your heavy attack build exactly the same but with something for example like Spinner or Stuhn ? You are boosting your heavy attacks with all kinds of stuff, the proc set only comes and adds 1.5k to that hit. You make it sound like this set is getting benefit from your mag and spd which proc sets do not get use from. Your HA is getting bonuses from mag and spd and then the proc set adds his damage, just like any other proc set. If it's not working like this, then it's a bug because the proc set should not give increased damage based on your other factors.

and you say it's hitting hard. Well yes but your only source of damage is the heavy attack channel then? i have much harder time against people that actually use abilities and weave LA between them. I have met in BG people that use this HA thing and while they hit hard, they are not bigger threat than players that play with their abilities and do not depend on heavy attacks. This build may be good but it's a niche for magdk and magplar then. However builds like grothdarr and overwhelming are much stronger on these classes. Gives the same dps but has more effects and they're passive meaning you can actually hit with something else.

RiskyChalice863 · January 2021

Sergykid wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

this "heavy attack" playstyle has much better competitors in decent level pvp. You won't get far with heavy attacks while your opponent uses actual abilities or proc sets. You don't have in your sets healing or defense, and the damage is lower than other proc sets. 1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling, while other sets give free 4k damage instantly. There is a reason this is not a thing in decent level pvp.
The results in such a playstyle are good for the things you offer, but there are alternatives where you get more for less. Like heavy armor proc sets, or damage oriented build with actual abilities. I will hit you harder with two dots on you and spamming sweeps than you doing your heavy attack on me, in the time i have better heals and defense than you.

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think you realize how much damage a heavy attack build can do, even if you build in lots of defense. The biggest thing you’re not getting is clearly revealed when you portray heavy attack builds as doing “1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling.” That’s not how it works. When you use a lightning staff, Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver apply their extra damage to every single tick of the lightning heavy attack. So these sets each apply their damage 4 times in every 2.2 second heavy attack channel. And the damage from these sets doesn’t behave like most proc sets do, in that it’s not a separate damage source. Rather, it simply adds to the heavy attack’s damage amount.

it adds at the end, the proc set damage is not calculated by all those modifiers like off balance. If your heavy attack deals 5k and then with off balance 8.5k, with the proc set you will deal 10k with it having 1.5k damage added. It is not added to the 5k base value reaching 6.5k and then with off balance to reach 11k.
Have you tried your heavy attack build exactly the same but with something for example like Spinner or Stuhn ? You are boosting your heavy attacks with all kinds of stuff, the proc set only comes and adds 1.5k to that hit. You make it sound like this set is getting benefit from your mag and spd which proc sets do not get use from. Your HA is getting bonuses from mag and spd and then the proc set adds his damage, just like any other proc set. If it's not working like this, then it's a bug because the proc set should not give increased damage based on your other factors.

and you say it's hitting hard. Well yes but your only source of damage is the heavy attack channel then? i have much harder time against people that actually use abilities and weave LA between them. I have met in BG people that use this HA thing and while they hit hard, they are not bigger threat than players that play with their abilities and do not depend on heavy attacks. This build may be good but it's a niche for magdk and magplar then. However builds like grothdarr and overwhelming are much stronger on these classes. Gives the same dps but has more effects and they're passive meaning you can actually hit with something else.

That’s not correct. The set damage absolutely is affected by modifiers like off balance. I have these sets and have used them a lot and can categorically tell you that the set damage is affected by modifiers like off balance and empower. It’s very obvious just based on the percent increase in overall damage I get when those modifiers are on.

I am not making it sound like the sets benefit from magicka and spell damage. They don’t. But they do work a bit differently than other proc sets. That is because they are *not* a separate damage source. Rather, they actually add damage to the heavy attacks themselves. Since they add damage to an existing damage source, that means that they get multiplied by any modifiers to that existing damage source (such as off balance, empower, molten armaments, etc.). It also means that they effectively can crit, because the heavy attack that they add their damage to can crit. All this is made quite obvious if you play with the sets. When you heavy attack with them, there aren’t separate damage numbers on your screen from the sets. All there is is just one number from each heavy attack tick—but those numbers are just much higher than without the sets, and those higher numbers increase by the advertised percent when you apply heavy attack damage modifiers like off balance.

To illustrate this, let’s go over a hypothetical example:

We’ll use the example you gave and say that, based on your magicka and spell damage, your lightning heavy attack would do 5,000 damage total (i.e. overall, from all four ticks combined). Now let’s say you triggered both Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver. These both add a fixed damage value onto each tick of heavy attack damage (and this fixed damage increase is only affected by the quality of your gear on that set, not on spell damage or magicka). If you have all legendary gear, then the sets would each add 1,680 damage per tick. Since there are 4 ticks of damage—and these sets apply their additional damage onto every heavy attack tick—that means that the two sets combined would add 13,440 damage to your lightning heavy attack ((1680+1680)*4 = 13,440)). Thus, your lightning heavy attack would now overall do 18,440 damage (5,000+13,440 = 18,440). Now let’s say your opponent is off balance. That would increase your overall heavy attack damage by 70%. Since the two sets are simply part of the heavy attack damage calculation and not their own separate source of damage, this 70% modifier would be applied to that 18,440 number. Thus, you’d now do 31,348 damage with a lightning heavy attack. Similarly, if your heavy attack damage crits, then the damage value that would be multiplied would include the damage from the sets since that damage is literally treated as part of the heavy attack damage itself.

As you can see, these sets scale your heavy attack damage up way more than anything like Spinner’s or Stuhn’s could. It’s not even close.

RiskyChalice863 · January 2021

Sergykid wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

this "heavy attack" playstyle has much better competitors in decent level pvp. You won't get far with heavy attacks while your opponent uses actual abilities or proc sets. You don't have in your sets healing or defense, and the damage is lower than other proc sets. 1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling, while other sets give free 4k damage instantly. There is a reason this is not a thing in decent level pvp.
The results in such a playstyle are good for the things you offer, but there are alternatives where you get more for less. Like heavy armor proc sets, or damage oriented build with actual abilities. I will hit you harder with two dots on you and spamming sweeps than you doing your heavy attack on me, in the time i have better heals and defense than you.

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think you realize how much damage a heavy attack build can do, even if you build in lots of defense. The biggest thing you’re not getting is clearly revealed when you portray heavy attack builds as doing “1.5k extra damage per sec while channeling.” That’s not how it works. When you use a lightning staff, Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver apply their extra damage to every single tick of the lightning heavy attack. So these sets each apply their damage 4 times in every 2.2 second heavy attack channel. And the damage from these sets doesn’t behave like most proc sets do, in that it’s not a separate damage source. Rather, it simply adds to the heavy attack’s damage amount.

. . .

and you say it's hitting hard. Well yes but your only source of damage is the heavy attack channel then? i have much harder time against people that actually use abilities and weave LA between them. I have met in BG people that use this HA thing and while they hit hard, they are not bigger threat than players that play with their abilities and do not depend on heavy attacks. This build may be good but it's a niche for magdk and magplar then. However builds like grothdarr and overwhelming are much stronger on these classes. Gives the same dps but has more effects and they're passive meaning you can actually hit with something else.

Yes, with a build like this, the heavy attack damage is the vast majority of the damage. I note that it’s not the only source of damage though. On my Templar version, I’ve always got Solar Barrage up. I have weapon enchant damage. I run Maw of the Infernal, which adds a good bit of damage. I use Swarming Scion if I’ve got enough ult for it, which adds some solid AOE damage around me (destro ult is another option). Obviously, I also get some damage from Toppling Charge when I use it. And I run Spiked Bone Shield, which adds some damage return.

Are there builds that can do as much damage as this? Sure. But it is extremely hard to make a build that can compete with this build’s damage while being able to have the kind of health, resistances, and sustain this build can have.

Are there downsides to the build? Yes. A few listed below:

- Your healing is not good. A stat-based build that has similar damage might not be able to compete in terms of health and resistances, but it will have massively superior healing. I don’t find it too much of a problem because Spiked Bone Shield is strong on this build, I get and use resto ult really frequently, I’ve got a strong purge, and I’ve got ample stamina to dodge and block a lot. But it’s definitely a negative. One could deal with this by replacing Maw of the Infernal with Earthgore or Chokethorn though.

- While you have a really strong 7 second damage window whenever someone is off balance—which the Templar can obviously very easily combine with a stun—you don’t have the kind of completely instant stacked burst damage that you can get with a MagSorc or Stamden or something. That said, it’s quite common for me to stun someone and kill them with a single heavy attack before they can even react (especially if they instinctively roll dodge after breaking free, since that doesn’t help them and just wastes their time). And people who that doesn’t work on are largely the type of bulky people who don’t get one-shot by MagSorc or Stamden combos either.

- You do not have an execute. You could run Jesus beam, but your stats are low enough that it’s not really worth bothering with it. I don’t find this a big problem—and I could run Crescent Sweep to finish people if I did—but stamina builds will definitely output more damage in execute range with Executioner.

- There’s a lack of mobility on the build, since you move slowly while channeling a heavy attack. I don’t find this a big problem on the Templar version, since Toppling Charge can stop people from LOSing me, and I use Restoring Focus and therefore can sprint a ton virtually for free. But I think it does make you an easy target, while attacking, for things that other builds may be able to avoid like Dizzying Swings and Jabs/Sweeps. That’s part of the reason I use Maw of the Infernal on the build—messing with peoples’ LOS with the Daedroth helps mitigate this issue.

Sergykid · January 2021

i don't doubt it's a strong build, but in pvp you can't beat meta without meta. While this heavy attack thing is good, it can't beat meta users (heavy armor with procs or high stats kite burst builds). I have met these builds, i had no significant problems with them, i didn't see them have better scores than "regular" people.
As you specified, its nature not being a burst is a disadvantage. In pvp burst kills people, dots are just there to help a coming burst. You can easily mash potatoes with this build, but potatoes are killed by anything.

RiskyChalice863 · January 2021

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't doubt it's a strong build, but in pvp you can't beat meta without meta. While this heavy attack thing is good, it can't beat meta users (heavy armor with procs or high stats kite burst builds). I have met these builds, i had no significant problems with them, i didn't see them have better scores than "regular" people.
As you specified, its nature not being a burst is a disadvantage. In pvp burst kills people, dots are just there to help a coming burst. You can easily mash potatoes with this build, but potatoes are killed by anything.

I have played probably 100 or so BGs with this build (or, rather, a Templar version) and many of them were in what I think were high MMR games (where I recognize the names of virtually everyone, and they’re all people who are usually dominant) in which people are all running the meta. And this build has fared really well. Has it completely *dominated* good players running the meta? No. But, even in those scenarios, it essentially always puts me amongst the top performers in the match (i.e. amongst the most kills and most damage, with amongst the fewest deaths). And I have never had a single bad BG on this build. There’s never been a single game in which I had more deaths than kills, for instance, nor have I ever had a game with it where I wasn’t in the top few in damage. Honestly, I can only remember one BG where there was anyone who clearly outperformed me (a game where I was definitely arguably the second best performer, but there was someone on another team who was really dominant). So this build definitely holds its own against the meta. And I note that I really am not a particularly good player and some of these games I know I’d get eaten alive if I were on other builds.

In terms of not having burst being a disadvantage, I think this build actually is not at a disadvantage on that right now compared to the meta builds. Let’s remember that the meta right now is not burst. It’s low-stat, high-hp proc-set builds, and the procs are almost all DoT procs. Can those builds still burst someone who is squishy? Perhaps. But if someone is not running a tanky build, the heavy attack build can absolutely kill them with a Toppling Charge and one heavy attack. If they roll dodge after breaking free, a large percent of players are simply dead before than can hit an ability. The meta builds actually don’t kill as fast. So, when I’m in a BG where there’s a lot of squishier players not running meta but there’s also one or two good players who are running the meta, I will typically outperform them, because I actually can farm non-tanky players quicker than them. Meanwhile, in games where everyone is running meta, there basically is no such thing as burst, because everyone is too tanky to burst down and no one is running a high burst build. In that scenario, the name of the game is really just sustained damage. And this build can actually put in as much or more sustained damage against groups than the meta builds, while being similarly tanky. If anything, I think this build does more damage, but just is a bit less survivable, so it’s a tradeoff more than anything.

Korppikoira · February 2021

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't doubt it's a strong build, but in pvp you can't beat meta without meta. While this heavy attack thing is good, it can't beat meta users (heavy armor with procs or high stats kite burst builds). I have met these builds, i had no significant problems with them, i didn't see them have better scores than "regular" people.
As you specified, its nature not being a burst is a disadvantage. In pvp burst kills people, dots are just there to help a coming burst. You can easily mash potatoes with this build, but potatoes are killed by anything.

I have played probably 100 or so BGs with this build (or, rather, a Templar version) and many of them were in what I think were high MMR games (where I recognize the names of virtually everyone, and they’re all people who are usually dominant) in which people are all running the meta. And this build has fared really well. Has it completely *dominated* good players running the meta? No. But, even in those scenarios, it essentially always puts me amongst the top performers in the match (i.e. amongst the most kills and most damage, with amongst the fewest deaths). And I have never had a single bad BG on this build. There’s never been a single game in which I had more deaths than kills, for instance, nor have I ever had a game with it where I wasn’t in the top few in damage. Honestly, I can only remember one BG where there was anyone who clearly outperformed me (a game where I was definitely arguably the second best performer, but there was someone on another team who was really dominant). So this build definitely holds its own against the meta. And I note that I really am not a particularly good player and some of these games I know I’d get eaten alive if I were on other builds.

In terms of not having burst being a disadvantage, I think this build actually is not at a disadvantage on that right now compared to the meta builds. Let’s remember that the meta right now is not burst. It’s low-stat, high-hp proc-set builds, and the procs are almost all DoT procs. Can those builds still burst someone who is squishy? Perhaps. But if someone is not running a tanky build, the heavy attack build can absolutely kill them with a Toppling Charge and one heavy attack. If they roll dodge after breaking free, a large percent of players are simply dead before than can hit an ability. The meta builds actually don’t kill as fast. So, when I’m in a BG where there’s a lot of squishier players not running meta but there’s also one or two good players who are running the meta, I will typically outperform them, because I actually can farm non-tanky players quicker than them. Meanwhile, in games where everyone is running meta, there basically is no such thing as burst, because everyone is too tanky to burst down and no one is running a high burst build. In that scenario, the name of the game is really just sustained damage. And this build can actually put in as much or more sustained damage against groups than the meta builds, while being similarly tanky. If anything, I think this build does more damage, but just is a bit less survivable, so it’s a tradeoff more than anything.

Hey! Can you share your latest setup for Templar? I saw your other post about it, but you seemed to have changed it a bit after that. Thank you!

Unified_Gaming · February 2021

Korppikoira wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't doubt it's a strong build, but in pvp you can't beat meta without meta. While this heavy attack thing is good, it can't beat meta users (heavy armor with procs or high stats kite burst builds). I have met these builds, i had no significant problems with them, i didn't see them have better scores than "regular" people.
As you specified, its nature not being a burst is a disadvantage. In pvp burst kills people, dots are just there to help a coming burst. You can easily mash potatoes with this build, but potatoes are killed by anything.

I have played probably 100 or so BGs with this build (or, rather, a Templar version) and many of them were in what I think were high MMR games (where I recognize the names of virtually everyone, and they’re all people who are usually dominant) in which people are all running the meta. And this build has fared really well. Has it completely *dominated* good players running the meta? No. But, even in those scenarios, it essentially always puts me amongst the top performers in the match (i.e. amongst the most kills and most damage, with amongst the fewest deaths). And I have never had a single bad BG on this build. There’s never been a single game in which I had more deaths than kills, for instance, nor have I ever had a game with it where I wasn’t in the top few in damage. Honestly, I can only remember one BG where there was anyone who clearly outperformed me (a game where I was definitely arguably the second best performer, but there was someone on another team who was really dominant). So this build definitely holds its own against the meta. And I note that I really am not a particularly good player and some of these games I know I’d get eaten alive if I were on other builds.

In terms of not having burst being a disadvantage, I think this build actually is not at a disadvantage on that right now compared to the meta builds. Let’s remember that the meta right now is not burst. It’s low-stat, high-hp proc-set builds, and the procs are almost all DoT procs. Can those builds still burst someone who is squishy? Perhaps. But if someone is not running a tanky build, the heavy attack build can absolutely kill them with a Toppling Charge and one heavy attack. If they roll dodge after breaking free, a large percent of players are simply dead before than can hit an ability. The meta builds actually don’t kill as fast. So, when I’m in a BG where there’s a lot of squishier players not running meta but there’s also one or two good players who are running the meta, I will typically outperform them, because I actually can farm non-tanky players quicker than them. Meanwhile, in games where everyone is running meta, there basically is no such thing as burst, because everyone is too tanky to burst down and no one is running a high burst build. In that scenario, the name of the game is really just sustained damage. And this build can actually put in as much or more sustained damage against groups than the meta builds, while being similarly tanky. If anything, I think this build does more damage, but just is a bit less survivable, so it’s a tradeoff more than anything.

Hey! Can you share your latest setup for Templar? I saw your other post about it, but you seemed to have changed it a bit after that. Thank you!

You want noble dualist + one of the undaunted sets and then a monster of choice like zaan or valk or 1 valk + malacath.