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Indirect nerfs and buffs. PVP balance.
milllaurie
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First - this is more of a pvp oriented thread.
Thing is when balance team trying to change balance they indirectly affect many abilities and item sets.
Let me give some examples:
Bone pirate. One of the best stamina sets. At least it used to be. Also bright throat for mag. Devs decided gold food should be much stronger than purple. Dubious now piece of turd, no one is going to run it. Spring loaded infusion? Maybe. But instead of that just go Eternal vigor + Bewitched. GG.
Wizard's riposte. Okay, we nerf maim but also make your set piece of junk. Literally, decon material. I have no doubt a lot of people had it golded.
Fury. Was it powerful? Yes. OP? No. It rewarded your survivability with a short window to burst. What if you don't have ult up within the window? Too bad. Statwise and if you average the damage uptime it would have sit somewhere with Ancient Dragonguard. Which is an OK set if we are generous.
Now - they are nerfing critical chance. Okay, everybody run malacath since crits are so low. Can a medium armor build be competitive against heavy malacath? No. We did the testing. Mala damage is just higher while having more bulk.
Maybe a medium gankblade with high crit dmg is still viable? Nah, everybody runs 35k+ hp. I have even seen gankblades running in duos and timing their combos via comms. TWO FULL DAMAGE nightblades to kill one person. Worst thing is, the 35k hp person can also one-combo both nightblades. WHILE they are in stealth. I know it because I have done it on my stam warden. I do not think this is a healthy balance.
Also I do not think defile impacts PVE in any way at all. Why nerf it at all IN A PVP TANK META? Wouldn't making Blast bones inflict minor defile be sufficient? Because now sets like Durok's bane, Cyrodiil's ward, Fasalla's guile are decon material. Or just taking up space because we still hope we can use it some day. (my case). Thing is, defile was never meta or OP. Instead of maybe release of necros when everybody was running Thurvokun, BUT - that could be fixed by making Blast bones do minor defile. Solved.
Troll king over performing. It was never over performing (1.5k hp recov = 750 HpS), stacking hp recov was. Well maybe stop treating HP recov as a special snowflake at long last? It gets affected by Defile, why shouldn't it be affected by battle spirit? For healing to by boosted by 40% you have to: Major Mending, Major Vitality, Minor mending. For HP recov to go up by 40% you have to: drink a potion. Don't you see a problem with that? Extrawelt in PC EU has released a video where he can stack more than 14,000k hp recov in the upcomming patch with the Strategic Reserve CP. 14 heckin K, Carl! That is 7k HpS. And you can actually actively heal/shield on top of that. Given that 2.5k-3k hps in pvp is considered good, what is 14k hp regen considered?
And yeah, again, Malacath. A best way to buff tanks. Flat 25% damage increase for builds that don't crit anyway. But wait, heals can still crit! Isn't it an item with 0 drawbacks?
Check the others:
Stranglers - makes you squishy AF.
Pale order - Can't receive any heals.
Snow Treaders - can't sprint.
Torc - requires you to play a minigame with your resource bars.
So why run a medium build where you actually have to put effort into surviving and counting on combos to crit, when you can slap One Ring To Rule Them All which also boosts proc damage. For it to be balanced it should at very least not boost proc damage in my opinion it should also make heals not crit (heavy users have low crit anyway). Then you actually have to make decisions.
Hopefully the new armor passives will change this in a good way. Which I don't think will happen.
What skills/stats/abilities you feel were indirectly nerfed?
Thing is when balance team trying to change balance they indirectly affect many abilities and item sets.
Let me give some examples:
Bone pirate. One of the best stamina sets. At least it used to be. Also bright throat for mag. Devs decided gold food should be much stronger than purple. Dubious now piece of turd, no one is going to run it. Spring loaded infusion? Maybe. But instead of that just go Eternal vigor + Bewitched. GG.
Wizard's riposte. Okay, we nerf maim but also make your set piece of junk. Literally, decon material. I have no doubt a lot of people had it golded.
Fury. Was it powerful? Yes. OP? No. It rewarded your survivability with a short window to burst. What if you don't have ult up within the window? Too bad. Statwise and if you average the damage uptime it would have sit somewhere with Ancient Dragonguard. Which is an OK set if we are generous.
Now - they are nerfing critical chance. Okay, everybody run malacath since crits are so low. Can a medium armor build be competitive against heavy malacath? No. We did the testing. Mala damage is just higher while having more bulk.
Maybe a medium gankblade with high crit dmg is still viable? Nah, everybody runs 35k+ hp. I have even seen gankblades running in duos and timing their combos via comms. TWO FULL DAMAGE nightblades to kill one person. Worst thing is, the 35k hp person can also one-combo both nightblades. WHILE they are in stealth. I know it because I have done it on my stam warden. I do not think this is a healthy balance.
Also I do not think defile impacts PVE in any way at all. Why nerf it at all IN A PVP TANK META? Wouldn't making Blast bones inflict minor defile be sufficient? Because now sets like Durok's bane, Cyrodiil's ward, Fasalla's guile are decon material. Or just taking up space because we still hope we can use it some day. (my case). Thing is, defile was never meta or OP. Instead of maybe release of necros when everybody was running Thurvokun, BUT - that could be fixed by making Blast bones do minor defile. Solved.
Troll king over performing. It was never over performing (1.5k hp recov = 750 HpS), stacking hp recov was. Well maybe stop treating HP recov as a special snowflake at long last? It gets affected by Defile, why shouldn't it be affected by battle spirit? For healing to by boosted by 40% you have to: Major Mending, Major Vitality, Minor mending. For HP recov to go up by 40% you have to: drink a potion. Don't you see a problem with that? Extrawelt in PC EU has released a video where he can stack more than 14,000k hp recov in the upcomming patch with the Strategic Reserve CP. 14 heckin K, Carl! That is 7k HpS. And you can actually actively heal/shield on top of that. Given that 2.5k-3k hps in pvp is considered good, what is 14k hp regen considered?
And yeah, again, Malacath. A best way to buff tanks. Flat 25% damage increase for builds that don't crit anyway. But wait, heals can still crit! Isn't it an item with 0 drawbacks?
Check the others:
Stranglers - makes you squishy AF.
Pale order - Can't receive any heals.
Snow Treaders - can't sprint.
Torc - requires you to play a minigame with your resource bars.
So why run a medium build where you actually have to put effort into surviving and counting on combos to crit, when you can slap One Ring To Rule Them All which also boosts proc damage. For it to be balanced it should at very least not boost proc damage in my opinion it should also make heals not crit (heavy users have low crit anyway). Then you actually have to make decisions.
Hopefully the new armor passives will change this in a good way. Which I don't think will happen.
What skills/stats/abilities you feel were indirectly nerfed?
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Lephrel✭✭✭✭✭
You could easily get full stacks of fury even in 1v1s, unless you were in no cp. The set was pretty ridiculous tbh, especially considering how weak the magicka set options were in comparison.milllaurie wrote: »Fury. Was it powerful? Yes. OP? No. It rewarded your survivability with a short window to burst. What if you don't have ult up within the window? Too bad. Statwise and if you average the damage uptime it would have sit somewhere with Ancient Dragonguard. Which is an OK set if we are generous.
I do generally agree with the points you're making. The indirect nerf to max magicka stacking is especially criminal imo. Over the past years almost all the percentage bonuses to magicka have been removed and damage shields have become unviable on basically every class apart from sorc. I really miss the days of 60k magicka nightblades and wardens...health stacking and procs just aren't fun imo.1 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭You could easily get full stacks of fury even in 1v1s, unless you were in no cp. The set was pretty ridiculous tbh, especially considering how weak the magicka set options were in comparison.
Well yeah and you can easily backbar clever alchemist now for on-demand 675 weapon damage. Logic has to make sense but it does not when it comes to fury nerfs.2 -
Elo106✭✭✭✭✭True I never understood the defile nerf. If it was just due to blast bones they should have changed blast bones2 -
Lephrel✭✭✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »You could easily get full stacks of fury even in 1v1s, unless you were in no cp. The set was pretty ridiculous tbh, especially considering how weak the magicka set options were in comparison.
Well yeah and you can easily backbar clever alchemist now for on-demand 675 weapon damage. Logic has to make sense but it does not when it comes to fury nerfs.
Logic has to make sense but it does not when it comes to fury nerfs? I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean by that.
But I agree that fury was over-nerfed. It would probably be even more awful if the changes were reverted, because everyone runs malacath now.1 -
Lephrel✭✭✭✭✭@milllaurie Yeah, but completely nonsensical balancing changes are the signature move of the new combat team. I mean first we get 50k dots, a patch later they are nerfed into oblivion and we get 30k vigor tooltips instead. Then all of a sudden everyone has to run 40k hp and stack procs.
Change for the sake of change seems to be their approach, and from what I can tell the community is tired of this frequent, volatile and needless disruption of combat balance.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The nerf to drinks (double bloody mara for example) because they are "drinks" and therefore should be worse than "foods" (I think they said it is because there are sets that get buffs when you use a drink, as if green pact doesn't exist for foods too) directly nerfed all drinks. So bone pirate and bright throat boast were directly nerfed by nerfing all drinks, it was intentional.Edited by zvavi on February 4, 2021 1:33PM0 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭(I think they said it is because there are sets that get buffs when you use a drink, as if green pact doesn't exist for foods too)
Exactly. Well they will eventually notice alessian is overtuned. But then, green pact + bewitched or beekeeper.
Thing Is, when battle spirit was created, none of these Op options existed. I just hate how it overlooks HP regen.0 -
Lephrel✭✭✭✭✭
If you at pve for example, where stamina sustain is of less importance, citrus filet and artaeum pickled fish bowl are roughly on par.The nerf to drinks (double bloody mara for example) because they are "drinks" and therefore should be worse than "foods" (I think they said it is because there are sets that get buffs when you use a drink, as if green pact doesn't exist for foods too) directly nerfed all drinks. So bone pirate and bright throat boast were directly nerfed by nerfing all drinks, it was intentional.- Citrus: 3458 magicka + 319 regen = 688 spell damage , 3724 hp
- Artaeum: 5117 magicka = 546 spell damage, 5625 hp
Now there are many more factors to consider here, maybe it's more effective to run sustain sets and damage food or maybe you don't need the extra health from artaeum etc. Point is, drinks aren't generally weaker. It's just that in pvp your off resource pools are far more important (especially on mag) and you can't ever have enough hp, so drinks are underperforming there.0 -
DT-ARR✭✭✭✭IMO 3 changes need to be made.
1 - Malacath doesn't buff proc damage
2 - Limit 1 proc bonus per character build in the same way you can only wear 1 mythic.
3 - Scale proc damage off either stam / magicka
I'm fine with procs being supplemental damage, but it is ridiculous for proc's to be a primary source and complete substitute for using skills / abilities which enables HA tanks to stack health while putting up equal damage as a stat based DD in LA.
EDIT: Fixed a typoEdited by DT-ARR on February 4, 2021 3:23PM1 -
Sun7dance✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭[...]
1 - Malacath doesn't buff proc damage
[...]
That's not enough, because heavy + Malacath armor would be still stronger than medium armor + nerfed crit after the patch.
Give me a good reason to currently play medium!
There is none and after the patch there is less than none!
PS5|EU2