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Of all things to nerf....
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FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Most endgame PC NA PVE discords I have browsed are happy about this change. Could just be a matter of sample bias, but I have not actually seen anyone I know being upset by this. Most discussions lead to a desire for ZoS to fix the elfbane destro pre buff.
Yep. I'm actually surprised to see a complaint about this.
The people I play with are annoyed. A lot of them have been practicing their timing and generally been having fun with the whole thing.
I am more rolling my eyes at their priorities.
Game breaking bugs that prevent you from clearing content? Fine!
Prebuffing? Omg better fix that.
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FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭hexentb16_ESO wrote: »If I'm understanding this post correctly ZOS is making it so buffs applied by other sets are removed when the set is unequipped? Correct me if I'm wrong. The OP is kinda unclear about what he's complaining about.
Equipping and unequipping a set just for a buff can go. I don't think its a bad thing but not a good thing either. HOWEVER I think buffs from sets equipped to our backbar shouldn't be removes because we switched bars.
Some sets do, many sets can be one bar only.0 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Most endgame PC NA PVE discords I have browsed are happy about this change. Could just be a matter of sample bias, but I have not actually seen anyone I know being upset by this. Most discussions lead to a desire for ZoS to fix the elfbane destro pre buff.
Most people inherently understand that society generally frowns upon cheating and don't need it explained to them, or don't need to pretend that they need it explained to them.
Unlike the OP.
It isn´t an exploit, it is changing your gear before the fight started.
It isn't just that. It is changing your gear before the fight starts but still retaining the buffs the gear you are no longer wearing. This isn't "You had Balorgh equipped and now you don't" This is "You had Balorgh equipped and procced it and then replaced it with Zaan and still have the Balorgh damage buff and now a completely different monster set doing damage"
Yes, that is true.
The player I responded to states it is an exploit and chooses to insult the OP with things like ´mental gymnastics´. Funny thing is, it has been in the game for the years and it isn´t an exploit. Or have you heard about all these people who got banned because of pre-buffing? Because that is just data ZOS can read out.
Zos doesn't need to ban players to consider something an exploit and fix it. They've identified this as an unintended exploit, and now they have fixed it.
The same thing happened with the stealth detection through add ons. No one was banned, but it was determined to be an unintended exploit, so they fixed it.
The stealth exploit gave some people a clear and distinct advantage in pvp.
This is much less clear. Players are generally competing against themselves (or a good natured rivalry with another guild) for their scores, and no one is at a disadvantage.
I see no downside to prebuffing, and several clear upsides.
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coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What's prebuffing... ?FantasticFreddie wrote: »
dear god people actually do that? then again ive heard with that addon its incredibly easy to switch between loadouts but dear god.....that..explains a lot. good riddance to that rubbage then.
This, I hadno idea it existed but yeahhhh good riddanceHoping for more playable races1 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »@coop500 thanks for asking what is prebuffing. You are not the only one who didn't know. I thought they might be nerfing my sorcs from casting surge or my wardens from casting netch before a fight.
@FantasticFreddy thank you for answering the question but I was confused until you did so.
Whew, changing and swapping gear sets is just not something I do - before a fight, after a fight, for any particular dungeon, etc. Buffing up before a fight with spells? You bet.
Yeah I was scared that it was like, casting long lasting buff skills before engaging combat and I was like NOOO isn't that a big point of these skills?Hoping for more playable races0 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What's prebuffing... ?FantasticFreddie wrote: »
dear god people actually do that? then again ive heard with that addon its incredibly easy to switch between loadouts but dear god.....that..explains a lot. good riddance to that rubbage then.
This, I hadno idea it existed but yeahhhh good riddance
I don't understand this mentality. You have never heard of it. You've never done it. Never played with anyone who has.
But you hate the idea of it and want it gone..... why? What possible negative impact could it have on you?0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »Most endgame PC NA PVE discords I have browsed are happy about this change. Could just be a matter of sample bias, but I have not actually seen anyone I know being upset by this. Most discussions lead to a desire for ZoS to fix the elfbane destro pre buff.
Yep. I'm actually surprised to see a complaint about this.
The people I play with are annoyed. A lot of them have been practicing their timing and generally been having fun with the whole thing.
I am more rolling my eyes at their priorities.
Game breaking bugs that prevent you from clearing content? Fine!
Prebuffing? Omg better fix that.
When I saw the change nerfing prebuffing I dm'd a friend who played competitively up until Markarth. You know what his reaction was?
Thank.
(Naughty word)
God.
Do you know that for one of the groups pushing the world record on vMoL during Stonethorn patch they had a 17 step prebuff sequence with something like 5 gear swaps just on Zhajassa? That's ridiculous and shouldn't be in the game.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »Most endgame PC NA PVE discords I have browsed are happy about this change. Could just be a matter of sample bias, but I have not actually seen anyone I know being upset by this. Most discussions lead to a desire for ZoS to fix the elfbane destro pre buff.
Most people inherently understand that society generally frowns upon cheating and don't need it explained to them, or don't need to pretend that they need it explained to them.
Unlike the OP.
It isn´t an exploit, it is changing your gear before the fight started.
It isn't just that. It is changing your gear before the fight starts but still retaining the buffs the gear you are no longer wearing. This isn't "You had Balorgh equipped and now you don't" This is "You had Balorgh equipped and procced it and then replaced it with Zaan and still have the Balorgh damage buff and now a completely different monster set doing damage"
Yes, that is true.
The player I responded to states it is an exploit and chooses to insult the OP with things like ´mental gymnastics´. Funny thing is, it has been in the game for the years and it isn´t an exploit. Or have you heard about all these people who got banned because of pre-buffing? Because that is just data ZOS can read out.
Zos doesn't need to ban players to consider something an exploit and fix it. They've identified this as an unintended exploit, and now they have fixed it.
The same thing happened with the stealth detection through add ons. No one was banned, but it was determined to be an unintended exploit, so they fixed it.
The stealth exploit gave some people a clear and distinct advantage in pvp.
This is much less clear. Players are generally competing against themselves (or a good natured rivalry with another guild) for their scores, and no one is at a disadvantage.
I see no downside to prebuffing, and several clear upsides.
Considering scores are tied to leaderboards which are tied to rewards, how is no one at a disadvantage? Considering ZOS uses completion data, alongside other trial and dungeon data, to make decisions one what to nerf or buff or change in the mechanics of an encounter, this literally has a negative impact on that data. And since console and PC are balanced equally, console players are at a severe disadvantage when content is balanced around whether a PC player can gear swap and gain unintended buffs while completing difficult content.2 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »I don't understand this mentality. You have never heard of it. You've never done it. Never played with anyone who has.
But you hate the idea of it and want it gone..... why? What possible negative impact could it have on you?
Ugh. Since you want to go on pretending cheating isn't wrong for its own sake:
High scores. Players who achieve a place on the leaderboards get additional gear they may need. Cheaters who exploit prebuffing and inflate their score may push non-cheaters off the leaderboard, thus depriving them of otherwise legitimately earned gear.
There. Now cheating is both wrong for its own sake and has been shown to hurt non-cheaters. Now stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.2 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »ZOS decided they don't like the concept of prebuffing. It doesn't fit with their ideal game mechanics. It's also unique to pc with addons and is typically only used by top end players so the removal levels the consoles with pc somewhat and lowers the skill ceiling attainable. These could be considered valid reasons for the removal of the mechanic.
Having a dressing room and the capability to swap between boss and trash setups at the push of a button cuts whole minutes off a fight and is done by most players once you reach a certain point.
Prebuffing gets you a few seconds, and is almost exclusively done by end game players.
Nerfing prebuffing does nothing to bring PC in line with console, a much smarter choice would be to give build a dressing room system into the UI so console gets it too
Why does PC need to be in line with console when there is zero cross play?
If both bases played mixed together I would totally get why it would be an issue with one part having a competitive advantage. But as PC and console are totally separate, there is no issue.
Because the game is balanced globally, not per platform. And seriously, gaining the bonus of a set when you aren't wearing the set anymore is clearly not something that was ever intended. Especially when you consider, they have been systematically making most sets that provide proc buffs, like clever alchemist, also require you be in combat to use for a while now.
My reply has nothing to do with whether prebuffing should stay or go. Voiced no opinion on it and take no sides. Won't affect my game play either way.
Sole point was the logic or justification quoted - to bring PC in line with console makes zero sense or logic when cross play between those platforms are not possible.
Using addons, PC players can much more effectively trade and price leverage flip selling and other aspects of game than console. But what does the price of mats in one world that has zero interaction with another separate world matter in any way?
Again, have no issue with prebuffing being removed, but if the rationale for such change is because PC can do it more effectively vs console (addon automated vs manually donning gear on console) and needs 'to be in line', then we have a bizarre state of trying to balance cross platform despite no cross play occurring.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »I don't understand this mentality. You have never heard of it. You've never done it. Never played with anyone who has.
But you hate the idea of it and want it gone..... why? What possible negative impact could it have on you?
Ugh. Since you want to go on pretending cheating isn't wrong for its own sake:
High scores. Players who achieve a place on the leaderboards get additional gear they may need. Cheaters who exploit prebuffing and inflate their score may push non-cheaters off the leaderboard, thus depriving them of otherwise legitimately earned gear.
There. Now cheating is both wrong for its own sake and has been shown to hurt non-cheaters. Now stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.
The people who prebuff don't need the gear. They have it already.
But the very top level players who prebuff were cheering its removal when the patch notes came out so I think it's not the elite players who are upset, but the next tier down who think prebuffing is their ticket into the elites.0 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »What's prebuffing... ?FantasticFreddie wrote: »
dear god people actually do that? then again ive heard with that addon its incredibly easy to switch between loadouts but dear god.....that..explains a lot. good riddance to that rubbage then.
This, I hadno idea it existed but yeahhhh good riddance
I don't understand this mentality. You have never heard of it. You've never done it. Never played with anyone who has.
But you hate the idea of it and want it gone..... why? What possible negative impact could it have on you?
Actually I wouldn't know, maybe some of the times I got killed in PVP, someone was pre-buffing? it's not super obvious and the fact so many people haven't heard of it seems like it's an unintended bug people were using. Do I blame people for using it? No of course not, but I don't blame ZOS for fixing it either because it does feel a bit cheat-y.
I just hope fixing it doesn't break other stuff in the process lol.
Edit: Just read this whole thread now. I dunno why it's so complicated? It seems pretty obvious that it's unintended and unfair. We're limited to 7 body part armors, two rings, one necklace and two weapon slots, anything defeating that is an exploit. Getting bonuses of more sets than you can wear at one time in ONE fight is an exploit. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how someone can say prebuffing was an intended and fair feature of the game?Edited by coop500 on February 3, 2021 6:26PMHoping for more playable races0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't consider prebuffing cheating. I just think it's annoying and should be removed for that reason.
I mean, if you really consider prebuffing cheating you'd want skills that you cast such as shields, channeled acceleration, boundless storm, flames of oblivion, etc that are cast before combat starts to be wiped when combat is initiated.
You'd want the 2 second arming timer removed from barbed trap and the fire staff destro ultimate.
Etc etc etc.0 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't consider prebuffing cheating. I just think it's annoying and should be removed for that reason.
I mean, if you really consider prebuffing cheating you'd want skills that you cast such as shields, channeled acceleration, boundless storm, flames of oblivion, etc that are cast before combat starts to be wiped when combat is initiated.
You'd want the 2 second arming timer removed from barbed trap and the fire staff destro ultimate.
Etc etc etc.
That is HARDLY the same thing.
One is intended actual skills you can equip in the game.
The other is swapping gear with an addon in a split second to get bonuses from more sets than you could actually useHoping for more playable races0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I don't consider prebuffing cheating. I just think it's annoying and should be removed for that reason.
I mean, if you really consider prebuffing cheating you'd want skills that you cast such as shields, channeled acceleration, boundless storm, flames of oblivion, etc that are cast before combat starts to be wiped when combat is initiated.
You'd want the 2 second arming timer removed from barbed trap and the fire staff destro ultimate.
Etc etc etc.
That is HARDLY the same thing.
One is intended actual skills you can equip in the game.
The other is swapping gear with an addon in a split second to get bonuses from more sets than you could actually use
I can pre-cast channeled acceleration and drop a Destro, then use an add-on to swap Destro to shooting star and channeled to rearming trap before combat initiates. The destro then enjoys the mages guild buffs from having shooting star on my bar.0 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?
Or using add ons to gain more buffs simultaneously than a human could legitimately apply without them to not be cheating?
Your definition of cheating is garbage.Edited by Mindcr0w on February 3, 2021 6:55PM1 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What I can't understand is why can't people just.... have their gear and skills? Why do they need to exploit addons to give themselves an advantage? And claim it's fair?Hoping for more playable races0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?
You definition of cheating is garbage.
Prebuffing is a combination of quick changing skills and gear. Not just gear. I don't consider any of it cheating, I just don't think any of it is good for the game because it significantly widens the skill gap.
Please don't stoop to personal insults.1 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why target prebuffing?
Because if you are at all honest you know that it is an unintended cheese mechanic.
Something something light attack weaving... something something double standards
But honestly I'm glad they're tackling this unintended mechanic at least. Mostly I just wish they'd revisit buffs in general. Many are too strong to be an option, and instead your build is simply incomplete without them (major sorcery/brutality most notably) and casting buffs for upkeep just isn't a fun gameplay loop full stop. They should all be passive skills to slot with bonus effects like Camo Hunter (always active while slotted, and auto-trigger an additional damage boost when dealing crit damage while flanking an enemy) - that's a fantastic passive skill gameplay-wise. All buff skills should function in a similar way, as passives.0 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Prebuffing is a combination of quick changing skills and gear. Not just gear. I don't consider any of it cheating,
Then you are wrong.Please don't stoop to personal insults.
Please don't stoop to appeals to tone to justify blatantly awful opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some opinions are bad, and no one is entitled to not having their bad opinions called out honestly for what they are.Edited by Mindcr0w on February 3, 2021 7:01PM0 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »Why target prebuffing?
Because if you are at all honest you know that it is an unintended cheese mechanic.
Something something light attack weaving... something something double standards
But honestly I'm glad they're tackling this unintended mechanic at least. Mostly I just wish they'd revisit buffs in general. Many are too strong to be an option, and instead your build is simply incomplete without them (major sorcery/brutality most notably) and casting buffs for upkeep just isn't a fun gameplay loop full stop. They should all be passive skills to slot with bonus effects like Camo Hunter (always active while slotted, and auto-trigger an additional damage boost when dealing crit damage while flanking an enemy) - that's a fantastic passive skill gameplay-wise. All buff skills should function in a similar way, as passives.
That is a good point. It kinda forces everyone to get these buffs or they simply won't preform as well and won't be able to complete most content outside overland.
But that's a separate issueEdited by coop500 on February 3, 2021 7:01PMHoping for more playable races0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Prebuffing is a combination of quick changing skills and gear. Not just gear. I don't consider any of it cheating,
Then you are wrong.Please don't stoop to personal insults.
Please don't stoop to appeals to tone to justify blatantly awful opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some opinions are bad, and no one is entitled to not having their bad opinions called out honestly for what they are.
Unintended gameplay is not the same as cheating. I stand by my opinion. Just because ZOS has decided it's not a gameplay style they want to be possible going forward doesn't mean people who used it were cheating.0 -
Nymzy✭✭You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?
Or using add ons to gain more buffs simultaneously than a human could legitimately apply without them to not be cheating?
Your definition of cheating is garbage.
"You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts and then completely swapping your ability loadout to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?"
Yes.PC-EU
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?
Or using add ons to gain more buffs simultaneously than a human could legitimately apply without them to not be cheating?
Your definition of cheating is garbage.
"You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts and then completely swapping your ability loadout to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?"
Yes.
Thank you Nymzy for actually reading what I wrote and understanding what I was trying to convey
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coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?
Or using add ons to gain more buffs simultaneously than a human could legitimately apply without them to not be cheating?
Your definition of cheating is garbage.
"You really consider casting an ability on your ability bar before combat starts and then completely swapping your ability loadout to be the same as having more gear buffs than are intended active at the same time?"
Yes.
I agree that these two are pretty close to the same, though that's not what the OP originally said, at least that's not what it seemed like.Hoping for more playable races0 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IMO addons shouldn't directly aid in combat either in terms of skill OR gear, both are cheating and give a unfair advantage over other players and it DOES very much affect other players. It creates higher expectations, pressure and in terms of PVP... do I even need to spell that out?Hoping for more playable races0 -
Mindcr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thank you Nymzy for actually reading what I wrote and understanding what I was trying to convey.
Oh get off it.
You started one post talking about simply pre-casting abilities on your bar, then immediately went into the next talking about usinging add ons to swap skills after casting them in ways no human could achieve naturally.
Move the goal posts more.Edited by Mindcr0w on February 3, 2021 7:22PM1 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oh get off it.
You started one post talking about simply pre-casting abilities on your bar, then immediately went into the next talking about usinging add ons to swap skills after casting them in ways no human could achieve naturally.
Move the goal posts more
This, exactly. That was some fast talking there.Hoping for more playable races1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IMO addons shouldn't directly aid in combat either in terms of skill OR gear, both are cheating and give a unfair advantage over other players and it DOES very much affect other players. It creates higher expectations, pressure and in terms of PVP... do I even need to spell that out?
For PvP at least the only add-ons I see used tend to be a grim focus counter (enhancing the in game UI to be easier to see), ability timers (most serious players use these on PC, so everyone is on even ground) and cmx used after the fight is over to either see what they did right or what they did wrong.0
This discussion has been closed.