So sick of this PvP "meta" in BGs...

Brynhiild · February 2021

Vateshran Destro staff, Crimson Twilight, Malacath... How to win the game without any skill... I'm so sick of this. Why ZOS put those broken sets in the game in the first place ?

If you want to know why PvP is not fun anymore don't look further : PROCS sets. The new meta is just being dumb and wait for the proc. Vateshran beam is going for 15m, in BG it's simply unbreakable because you can't escape if you play as a magicka class (not enough stam to roll dodge, and the guy is following you anyway.), by that time the Crimson did his proc, healing the guy in the process, while he is beating the sh*t out of you with a 2H weapon with Malacath Ring... SUPER FUN.

So, am i doomed to see the PvP i did enjoy (a while ago) being ruined like that ? Do i need to play the same kind of build as them to enjoy the game again ?...
Even "glass canon" kind of build can't beat this meta, i'm not a "pro" BG player but i'm not a total incompetent. The only moments where i still have fun is when i play against players who're like me : refusing to play this ridiculous meta and playing whatever they want to play...

Do you have a good counter for those builds ? Who are FUN to play and not "rolling my face over the keyboard to win"...

Waffennacht · February 2021

WW
Heavy Attack build
Thews

There's a few viable builds that arent exactly what you mentioned (though close lol)

But, all the "elites" would definitely say go proc or go home

techyeshic · February 2021

But it adds variety and everyone just needs to L2P is what I hear.

Grebcol · February 2021

ZOS did make e big *** meta with this proc nonsense. Tanky DD's everywhere.

Brynhiild · February 2021

So either i go proc sets or werewolf... Yeah i think i'll pass on that and go to PvE mode and avoid PvP for a long time ._.

I really love to see how devs can destroy the little fun we had... A good exemple of "looks good on the paper but terrible in reality"...

jaws343 · February 2021

Waffennacht wrote: »

WW
Heavy Attack build
Thews

There's a few viable builds that arent exactly what you mentioned (though close lol)

But, all the "elites" would definitely say go proc or go home

Nothing like burst and ult dumping only to kill yourself because the player is wearing Thews. And then you have to spend the rest of the BG avoid the one player the rest of the group hides behind. Which basically eliminates most ultimates and all aoe abilities you could cast against the group.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Brynhiild wrote: »

So either i go proc sets or werewolf... Yeah i think i'll pass on that and go to PvE mode and avoid PvP for a long time ._.

I really love to see how devs can destroy the little fun we had... A good exemple of "looks good on the paper but terrible in reality"...

You could also put together a dedicated healer build to help keep your/our Stamina overlords alive.

Believe it or not, a lot of Magicka builds are actually helped by the current meta of procs + heavy armor, even if the playstyle isn't particularly enjoyable for a lot of people. The gap between Mag and Stam builds is much larger in virtually all cases when you're limited to stat-based sets and class/weapon skills - the PvP game balance is pretty awful in that realm (especially for some classes, like Magicka Necromancer).

There are some Stamina players being successful with stat-based setups right now in BGs, utilizing at most the Vateshran 2h (which is a bigger overall problem than the Destruction Staff) for proc sets. The only Magicka class that I can remember seeing be successful with stat sets in BGs lately is Mag Sorc. I would assume it might be possible for Mag DK and/or Templar as well, but they'd still be quite noticeably behind stat-based Stam Warden, Stam Sorc, etc...

ivramirez · February 2021

one more week in 2021 and we continue to have proc sets, unbalanced AoE damage, WW, brainless gameplay.

Auberon1983 · February 2021

I actually ran into my first proc set opponent today in Battlegrounds, something like "Power of the Red Mountain". I'd never heard of that, so I had to look it up. Man, it hit my dude hard. I honestly have no idea what defense to run against it. This was in under level 50 Battlegrounds, btw.

SOLDIER_1stClass · February 2021

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

Auberon1983 · February 2021

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

EtTuBrutus · February 2021

Auberon1983 wrote: »

show previous quotes

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

I feel like Stam sorc is one of the easiest classes to stay alive on, especially when going medium.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

I could write novels about why Heavy armor shouldn't penalize your damage any more than it already does - unless Medium penalizes your Healing Received more than it already does (i.e. the absence of any buffs, like Heavy with damage, but no direct penalties) - but it's popular to disparage heavy armor builds and always has been. As I've said in other threads, was the self-healing and roll-dodge meta between Elsweyr and Greymoor solved by a direct nerf to Medium armor?

However insufferable this meta in BGs, at least it's equally available to all classes, unlike the PetSorc meta (from Murkmire to Elsweyr, I think it was).

olsborg · February 2021

Brynhiild wrote: »

If you want to know why PvP is not fun anymore don't look further : PROCS sets. The new meta is just being dumb and wait for the proc

Yea I agree wholeheartedly. Game(pvp) is dumbed down so much that there is no challenge anymore, well unless you wanna play without proccs, but then youre just gimping yourself beyond whats reasonable. Once upon a time you could play vs meta builds with a nonmeta build, but nowadays there is no light in the tunnel.

hexentb16_ESO · February 2021

Brynhiild wrote: »

Vateshran Destro staff, Crimson Twilight, Malacath... How to win the game without any skill... I'm so sick of this. Why ZOS put those broken sets in the game in the first place ?

Skill also involves using sets well AND dealing with players using strong sets. Using these sets doesn't mean somone doesn't have skill but not being able to deal people using them might. Rise to the challenge and you'll find the game is far more fun.

And no...I don't use "OP" sets like that.

Auberon1983 · February 2021

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Auberon1983 wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

I feel like Stam sorc is one of the easiest classes to stay alive on, especially when going medium.

I actually switched back to medium due to sustain issues. Tankiness only goes so far when I'm stuck basic attacking and unable to break free/dodge roll. I've just had to learn to be more offensive in style. 3 ranks in the crit buff part of Medium Armor + slotting Camo Hunter has let me kill faster. I normally live by "the best offense is a good defense", but I'm discovering this isn't always the case.

It's what I love about PvP; experimentation and new experiences

Pixiepumpkin · February 2021

pvp is not fun anymore. its dumb broken in eso

WreckfulAbandon · February 2021

"But Crimson allows 1vX"

Said a surprising number of decent PvPers who (with this statement) support one of the worst PvP metas ever

Kory · February 2021

The Wrath of Elements Vateshran Destro staff is absolutely overtuned. Disgusting....
I'm gonna use it

It's not even defendable other than running away/kiting which means you have your back to the opponent which means you're dead. The tether doesn't even break when you get line of sight. Gotta be 35k health and up and good healing utility to even compete with that.

ThorianB · February 2021

Auberon1983 wrote: »

show previous quotes

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

Heavy Armor gets a huge nerf with CP 2.0. You have the armor penalties themselves and Ironclad gets a major nerf where it gives a flat 1750 armor to everyone for 50 points instead of being based off your armor rating. You won't have such a disadvantage for light and medium builds now.

Auberon1983 · February 2021

ThorianB wrote: »

show previous quotes

Auberon1983 wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

Heavy Armor gets a huge nerf with CP 2.0. You have the armor penalties themselves and Ironclad gets a major nerf where it gives a flat 1750 armor to everyone for 50 points instead of being based off your armor rating. You won't have such a disadvantage for light and medium builds now.

I don't want to say that's "good news", as many people are going to have to rebuild well established characters. At the same time, it is somewhat of a relief. I recently switched back to medium, and am happier for it

Kory · February 2021

Auberon1983 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ThorianB wrote: »

Auberon1983 wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

Heavy Armor gets a huge nerf with CP 2.0. You have the armor penalties themselves and Ironclad gets a major nerf where it gives a flat 1750 armor to everyone for 50 points instead of being based off your armor rating. You won't have such a disadvantage for light and medium builds now.

I don't want to say that's "good news", as many people are going to have to rebuild well established characters. At the same time, it is somewhat of a relief. I recently switched back to medium, and am happier for it

In other words, people are chasing after meta anyway.

ThorianB · February 2021

Auberon1983 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ThorianB wrote: »

Auberon1983 wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Id rather they get rid of the heavy meta.
Add a damage debuff to heavy per piece.

Make malacath not increase proc damage.

If you want to run around in heavy it should come at a considerable price to your damage output

I completely agree about heavy armor. My StamSorc isn't wearing heavy because I want him to, I'd much rather rock medium armor (better crit rating, better sustain, cheaper rolls etc). No, he's wearing heavy just so he stays alive longer than 2-3 hits (I don't use proc sets, though)

Heavy Armor gets a huge nerf with CP 2.0. You have the armor penalties themselves and Ironclad gets a major nerf where it gives a flat 1750 armor to everyone for 50 points instead of being based off your armor rating. You won't have such a disadvantage for light and medium builds now.

I don't want to say that's "good news", as many people are going to have to rebuild well established characters. At the same time, it is somewhat of a relief. I recently switched back to medium, and am happier for it

Everyone is going to have to rebuild for everything. CP is reset and so are skill points. The entire CP system is different so every character is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch.

StarOfElyon · February 2021

I play games to have fun but this one just makes me really sad sometimes. It doesn't really feel fair at all that I can't even bar swap or get my Crescent Sweep to come out after a Toppling Charge, but I get hit by a shield charge and suddenly I got Sellistrix, Venomous Smite, and/or Serpent's Spirit obliterating me all at once. I feel like I have to wait one second between pushing buttons to make sure my skills activate while on my back bar trying to recover from the dots that the procs put on me. It's really, really, really, really bad! I can't even get a window to go offensive on some people because the procs are up 100% of the time forcing me to get on the back bar.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Kory wrote: »

The Wrath of Elements Vateshran Destro staff is absolutely overtuned. Disgusting....
I'm gonna use it

It's not even defendable other than running away/kiting which means you have your back to the opponent which means you're dead. The tether doesn't even break when you get line of sight. Gotta be 35k health and up and good healing utility to even compete with that.

I wish people would stop spreading this misinformation; the tether absolutely does break on LOS. Some players claim that it won't be broken if LOS is only achieved for a split second between damage pulses, and I suppose that might possibly be true, but I can't say that I've ever had it not be broken when LOSing it myself.

And I'll say again that I think the 2h is generally more of a problem than the destruction staff is. No one has ever been 1-shotted because the staff was utilized with an already potent burst combo, and you can't counter the 2h with a brief cloak, streak, or LOS before going right back on the offensive.

ThorianB wrote: »

Heavy Armor gets a huge nerf with CP 2.0. You have the armor penalties themselves and Ironclad gets a major nerf where it gives a flat 1750 armor to everyone for 50 points instead of being based off your armor rating. You won't have such a disadvantage for light and medium builds now.

It would seem that most people disagree with your assessment of heavy armor on the PTS. The CP change you reference, which is a fairly minor thing to begin with, only has an effect in CP-enabled PvP, and is meaningless for BGs and non-CP Cyrodiil/Imperial City campaigns.

Take a look at the other armor changes on PTS:

Spoiler

Light Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 5% per piece worn

Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5% per piece worn

Reduces the cost of Bash by 3% per piece worn

Light Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Block by 3% per piece worn

Decreases your damage done with Bash by 1% per piece worn

Medium Armor Bonuses
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5% per piece worn

Reduces the cost of Block by 3% per piece worn

Reduces your damage taken from Area of Effect Attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you Roll Dodge

Increases your Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken from Martial attacks by 1% per piece worn

Increases the amount of damage blocked by 1% per piece worn

Increases damage done with Bash by 3% per piece worn

Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

The heavy armor penalties aren't nothing, to be sure, but compared to the extra damage reduction when CC immune and the new penalties associated with light armor (alongside already having drastically lower resists), I don't think we're going to see a huge meta shift for most players. Medium armor might become a bit more widespread, but barring future PTS changes I think light armor will be completely dead for most people. There will probably be some 1vX highlight videos put out where some people will use it - along with a tremendous amount of dodge spamming, especially in CP-enabled Cyrodiil - to engage in some potato mashing, but against good players in organized teams? I just don't see it happening right now.

Waffennacht · February 2021

@wheem_ESO is pretty accurate.

Solariken · February 2021

@wheem_ESO it Vate Destro technically does break on LOS but it is either VERY forgiving for the caster or buggy. So many times I've broken LOS for 3+ seconds to try to get rid of the tether and sometimes it just won't come off. Or even more frustrating is when I streak on my sorcs and still eat a couple more ticks afterward.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Solariken wrote: »

@wheem_ESO it Vate Destro technically does break on LOS but it is either VERY forgiving for the caster or buggy. So many times I've broken LOS for 3+ seconds to try to get rid of the tether and sometimes it just won't come off. Or even more frustrating is when I streak on my sorcs and still eat a couple more ticks afterward.

Never experienced either issue personally, though I have occasionally seen the tether still remain on me if the person using it died.

There have been numerous times, from either end of the tether, that I've seen it break on LOS even if only achieved for ~1 second. Things like reaching the top of stairs first, rounding a corner first, etc...generally seems to break it for me. 'Course, it's certainly possible that there are some bugs that can impact this in some cases, and if so it should definitely be fixed. But I do take issue when people (not you) make blanket claims about how LOS doesn't affect the Vateshran Destruction Staff, when even a modest amount of recent experience in PvP should show that to be untrue.

Kory · February 2021

@wheem_ESO Like he said that damage keeps ticking even when the "tether" is suppose to stop. But I and others are just spreading misinformation. You know, the misinformation that maybe or maybe not the tether breaks when you're out of it's whole 15 meter range, or still damage's behind a wall/structure or up the stairs on a different level.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Solariken wrote: »

@wheem_ESO it Vate Destro technically does break on LOS but it is either VERY forgiving for the caster or buggy. So many times I've broken LOS for 3+ seconds to try to get rid of the tether and sometimes it just won't come off. Or even more frustrating is when I streak on my sorcs and still eat a couple more ticks afterward.

Never experienced either issue personally, though I have occasionally seen the tether still remain on me if the person using it died.

Well personal experience is misinformation according to some people.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kory wrote: »

The Wrath of Elements Vateshran Destro staff is absolutely overtuned. Disgusting....
I'm gonna use it

It's not even defendable other than running away/kiting which means you have your back to the opponent which means you're dead. The tether doesn't even break when you get line of sight. Gotta be 35k health and up and good healing utility to even compete with that.

And I'll say again that I think the 2h is generally more of a problem than the destruction staff is. No one has ever been 1-shotted because the staff was utilized with an already potent burst combo, and you can't counter the 2h with a brief cloak, streak, or LOS before going right back on the offensive.

Vateshran Destro staff It's very easy to proc, and it's damage over time that ticks per second 2k+/3k+ and even more with Malacath's band whilst the damage scales up each time it deals damage, which is every second...We can talk about a 6 condition 2h proc weapon with burst though. No problem it's easy to proc with a good burst for added punch to a combo.
But the staff to me is gross. Very strong to use right now with very little effort to be overly effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy4kcMsKqqY

Waffennacht · February 2021

@Kory I dont wish to speak for anyone else; however I do believe the comparison was to 2h vateshran; which doesn't require anything more than destro (back bar with an ability that's a staple already) however can be procced at will - on a different bar, with a passive buff

When compared in a vacuum id take 2h over destro

Brrrofski · February 2021

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

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Brynhiild wrote: »

Vateshran Destro staff, Crimson Twilight, Malacath... How to win the game without any skill... I'm so sick of this. Why ZOS put those broken sets in the game in the first place ?

Skill also involves using sets well AND dealing with players using strong sets. Using these sets doesn't mean somone doesn't have skill but not being able to deal people using them might. Rise to the challenge and you'll find the game is far more fun.

And no...I don't use "OP" sets like that.

Using Crimson does not require any skill. There is no way on earth anyone can change my mind on that.

It does damage, and heals while you can literally be afk.

And yeh, I can block or move out of it to take no damage and provide no healing. But it still hard forces me to stop damaging the person wearing it.