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Mortals still don't have an advantage
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »With me being able to see player buffs with an add-on it's sad to see so many players who are werewolves and don't use it. No downside to unslotting it.
That's exactly what would happen if vampire had a stage zero. Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
Do they not still take 20% more damage from fighter guild abilities? I thought that would be the case regardless of form.
As I understand it, the downsides only apply when transformed.
Edited: Sorry, fixed my quote goof.Edited by VaranisArano on January 29, 2021 5:57PM0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With me being able to see player buffs with an add-on it's sad to see so many players who are werewolves and don't use it. No downside to unslotting it.
That's exactly what would happen if vampire had a stage zero. Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
Hmm...insightful.0 -
r3turn2s3nd3r✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Maybe ZOS has improved it recently, but questing as a werewolf seemed to be very clunky and involve lots of using my transformation, letting it fade to advance to the next stage, the rebuilding ultimate so I could transform again. For all that I was trying to quest as a werewolf, I spent an awful lot of questing time not as a werewolf.
Ravage health pots = perma ww if there's nothing to devour / kill.3 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.1 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
Edaphon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.2 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
Edaphon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.3 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.1 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do not so much want to see a disadvantage to werewolves (or vampires for that matter). I would like to see the return of the knock-down on silver shards, or some other active ability that is particularly effective when it's used against undead and daedra. Atm, it's difficult to specialize as a monster hunter and to add insult to injury some story lines even demand you team up with them and act as if they're your friends, which is disgusting. Ok, that's a bit of role-play, but IMHO a valid choice the game should offer. It should be possible to specialise your character to be particularly deadly against vampires, werewolves, daedra, undead and so on. The current fighter's guild line just doesn't do that.Edited by Muizer on January 29, 2021 8:27PMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.Edited by Scardan on January 29, 2021 8:59PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.4 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
M_Volsung✭✭✭✭✭I don't give a wet slap about the skill line, I took werewolf just so I wouldn't have to worry about my character getting turned into an uglyass vamp."In the Deep Halls, Far from Men;
Forsaken Red Mountain, Twisted Kin;
Hail the Mind, Hail the Stone;
Dwarven Pride, Stronger than Bone"
—Dwemer Inquiries I-III, Thelwe Ghelein1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.6 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.
Buffs would be fine, Im mostly trying to get my point understood first with that example. An extra option is still an advantage regardless of if its used or not. Otherwise there literally is no choice between werewolf or mortal as one is always better then the other.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.
Buffs would be fine, Im mostly trying to get my point understood first with that example. An extra option is still an advantage regardless of if its used or not. Otherwise there literally is no choice between werewolf or mortal as one is always better then the other.
Say that I and Player A both use destro staffs for our characters. We're Mag DDs, so that's the only weapons we need.
I unlock and level all the weapon lines on my character, then set those weapons aside, never using them again, and only use a destro staff.
Player A never unlocks the other weapons, has no desire to, and only ever uses a destro staff.
Do I have a gameplay advantage over Player A?
In one sense, yes. I have the more flexible character who can adapt to using different weapons if I so choose. Player A cannot, even though Player A does not care that that they can't.
In another sense, no. As long as we are both using destro staffs, there's no gameplay difference between me and Player A. We're both equally proficient with the weapon we are using. There's no debuff for having more weapon lines unlocked and leveled/no buff for specializing in a single weapon, so my extra weapon lines mean jack all.
You seem to be arguing that, yes, having the extra choice and flexibility is its own advantage and must be paid for in a nerf or debuff to werewolves.
Many of us are arguing that, no, as long as we're using the same thing (pure mortals are identical to players not using any werewolf abilities), there's no gameplay difference. So if you want to nerf/debuff werewolves, you'd better start thinking about buffs too.
In terms of weapons, what benefit does Player A gain from not leveling all the weapon choices as I did?
Well, they lose choice and flexibility. But that doesn't really matter to them, as they are very happy with destro staff.
They gain in opportunity cost - what they were doing while I was pursuing that choice and flexibility.
They gain the time I spent leveling those skill lines.
They gain the skill points otherwise spent leveling those skill lines and the gold used to refund the points if I don't leave them active.
In the same way, pure mortals gain the opportunity cost of the time, effort, and gold/crowns werewolf players spend getting bitten and leveling their werewolf. And crucially, pure mortals generally aren't interested in the werewolf skill line in the first place. That choice they are "losing"...isn't usually a choice they cared about in the first place. My Altmer MagSorc, for instance, loses absolutely nothing because she's not a werewolf. It would be pointless on her build.
"But you'd have the option! Why not go for it?!"
Yeah, I'd have the option to level a werewolf who hits like a wet noodle because its on a magicka build. Been there, done that, seriously not interested.
(Now, I'm aware that all analogies break down eventually and the weapon skill lines analogy will probably reach its limits soon. Nevertheless, I think its its illustrative of the idea that "choice is its own advantage" vs "extra choices don't convey advantages when they aren't being used and don't convey a disadvantage when they aren't desired.")4 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.
Buffs would be fine, Im mostly trying to get my point understood first with that example. An extra option is still an advantage regardless of if its used or not. Otherwise there literally is no choice between werewolf or mortal as one is always better then the other.
Say that I and Player A both use destro staffs for our characters. We're Mag DDs, so that's the only weapons we need.
I unlock and level all the weapon lines on my character, then set those weapons aside, never using them again, and only use a destro staff.
Player A never unlocks the other weapons, has no desire to, and only ever uses a destro staff.
Do I have a gameplay advantage over Player A?
In one sense, yes. I have the more flexible character who can adapt to using different weapons if I so choose. Player A cannot, even though Player A does not care that that they can't.
In another sense, no. As long as we are both using destro staffs, there's no gameplay difference between me and Player A. We're both equally proficient with the weapon we are using. There's no debuff for having more weapon lines unlocked and leveled/no buff for specializing in a single weapon, so my extra weapon lines mean jack all.
You seem to be arguing that, yes, having the extra choice and flexibility is its own advantage and must be paid for in a nerf or debuff to werewolves.
Many of us are arguing that, no, as long as we're using the same thing (pure mortals are identical to players not using any werewolf abilities), there's no gameplay difference. So if you want to nerf/debuff werewolves, you'd better start thinking about buffs too.
In terms of weapons, what benefit does Player A gain from not leveling all the weapon choices as I did?
Well, they lose choice and flexibility. But that doesn't really matter to them, as they are very happy with destro staff.
They gain in opportunity cost - what they were doing while I was pursuing that choice and flexibility.
They gain the time I spent leveling those skill lines.
They gain the skill points otherwise spent leveling those skill lines and the gold used to refund the points if I don't leave them active.
In the same way, pure mortals gain the opportunity cost of the time, effort, and gold/crowns werewolf players spend getting bitten and leveling their werewolf. And crucially, pure mortals generally aren't interested in the werewolf skill line in the first place. That choice they are "losing"...isn't usually a choice they cared about in the first place. My Altmer MagSorc, for instance, loses absolutely nothing because she's not a werewolf. It would be pointless on her build.
"But you'd have the option! Why not go for it?!"
Yeah, I'd have the option to level a werewolf who hits like a wet noodle because its on a magicka build. Been there, done that, seriously not interested.
(Now, I'm aware that all analogies break down eventually and the weapon skill lines analogy will probably reach its limits soon. Nevertheless, I think its its illustrative of the idea that "choice is its own advantage" vs "extra choices don't convey advantages when they aren't being used and don't convey a disadvantage when they aren't desired.")
Actually you missed a point in that argument. One player DOES NOT have an extra option in mine. Your example shows that both CAN use the other option.
Look at it this way. Pure mortal gets to hold 2 cards. Werewolf gets to hold 3, but most don't use the third card. Now why would I ever choose the first one? Having an extra option is always better.
That's like saying we fist fight but I have a pistol in my back pocket. I didn't use said pistol but could if I wanted. Everything was fair in that fight? Just because I hold myself back then everything is balanced?
I could use the extra option you don't at any time. Also werewolf doesn't lose anything, a good build doesn't use ALL skill points. Like a mag build putting points into bow because it can? In that case we should revert vampire because they have to put points into their line.Edited by Ryuvain on January 29, 2021 11:55PMThat one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, every single one of your non-vampire characters are werewolves then, right @Ryuvain ?
(in the interest of time, I'm going to just assume the answer is something like, "No, of course not!")
Well, there you go. If WW is such an advantage that it needs addressing, why isn't everyone (or anyone) turning every last one of their non-vamp characters into WW? It's not worth it, unless you're actually going for the whole WW thing on that character.
Most people "are" werewolves on the characters that are (even when they don't play with WW form for months at a time) simply because curing and getting bitten again when you feel like running with the wolves is a hassle. Not some advantage that needs addressing.
If you were saying something like "WW shouldn't have passive regen outside of WW form, ult slotted or no!" then that might be something worth discussing... kind of. But it's such a weak argument, because 15% regen for losing an ultimate slot just isn't that worthwhile of a trade overall. Opportunity costs, and all that. Few people do it, I'd wager.
If you were saying "Werewolves should take more poison damage, whether they're in-form or not!" or something along those lines, then what @VaranisArano said comes into play; what always-on bonus do we get to balance that out? The opportunity to become a WW? The option to do it is our big advantage we need to be punished for?
You think we need penalties for being WW, before we're in WW form; or maybe that "mortals" should get bonuses for not being infected in any way. We get it. We just disagree. WW ult has a high cost to cast (the highest in the game, iirc), and comes with its own pluses and minuses while you're actually wolfing out. If WW is overpowered in any way, looking at the power spike it posses is the way to address it -- not adding arbitrary penalties that hurt players not actively built for WW.
If WW needs balancing as a whole (it does!), that's a separate discussion. But trying to convince people that WW needs to be disincentivized even when you're not using it... well, I just don't get the motivation. WW has its own downsides already. You simply don't want people to be werewolves unless they really want it, or what?5 -
Unij✭✭✭Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
In TESV you never woke up well rested as a Werwolf... also there was a cursed ring that controlled your transformation or made it happen in random situations.
However transforming into a Werwolf in front of npcs is now a criminal act. Thats good, and right. But Werwolfs should get also a negative effect called uncontrollable hunger that lets them lose x% max health for each hour they haven't feeded their wolf, till the wolf takes over the controll and you transform.
I miss coments about it too, I liked how Guards told me in Skyrim about my hairy ears or the smell of a wet dog.Main char is a Strong Nord Man, Thief, Vampire, Healer, Mastercrafter. PC-EU since 2016.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.
Buffs would be fine, Im mostly trying to get my point understood first with that example. An extra option is still an advantage regardless of if its used or not. Otherwise there literally is no choice between werewolf or mortal as one is always better then the other.
Say that I and Player A both use destro staffs for our characters. We're Mag DDs, so that's the only weapons we need.
I unlock and level all the weapon lines on my character, then set those weapons aside, never using them again, and only use a destro staff.
Player A never unlocks the other weapons, has no desire to, and only ever uses a destro staff.
Do I have a gameplay advantage over Player A?
In one sense, yes. I have the more flexible character who can adapt to using different weapons if I so choose. Player A cannot, even though Player A does not care that that they can't.
In another sense, no. As long as we are both using destro staffs, there's no gameplay difference between me and Player A. We're both equally proficient with the weapon we are using. There's no debuff for having more weapon lines unlocked and leveled/no buff for specializing in a single weapon, so my extra weapon lines mean jack all.
You seem to be arguing that, yes, having the extra choice and flexibility is its own advantage and must be paid for in a nerf or debuff to werewolves.
Many of us are arguing that, no, as long as we're using the same thing (pure mortals are identical to players not using any werewolf abilities), there's no gameplay difference. So if you want to nerf/debuff werewolves, you'd better start thinking about buffs too.
In terms of weapons, what benefit does Player A gain from not leveling all the weapon choices as I did?
Well, they lose choice and flexibility. But that doesn't really matter to them, as they are very happy with destro staff.
They gain in opportunity cost - what they were doing while I was pursuing that choice and flexibility.
They gain the time I spent leveling those skill lines.
They gain the skill points otherwise spent leveling those skill lines and the gold used to refund the points if I don't leave them active.
In the same way, pure mortals gain the opportunity cost of the time, effort, and gold/crowns werewolf players spend getting bitten and leveling their werewolf. And crucially, pure mortals generally aren't interested in the werewolf skill line in the first place. That choice they are "losing"...isn't usually a choice they cared about in the first place. My Altmer MagSorc, for instance, loses absolutely nothing because she's not a werewolf. It would be pointless on her build.
"But you'd have the option! Why not go for it?!"
Yeah, I'd have the option to level a werewolf who hits like a wet noodle because its on a magicka build. Been there, done that, seriously not interested.
(Now, I'm aware that all analogies break down eventually and the weapon skill lines analogy will probably reach its limits soon. Nevertheless, I think its its illustrative of the idea that "choice is its own advantage" vs "extra choices don't convey advantages when they aren't being used and don't convey a disadvantage when they aren't desired.")
Actually you missed a point in that argument. One player DOES NOT have an extra option in mine. Your example shows that both CAN use the other option.
Look at it this way. Pure mortal gets to hold 2 cards. Werewolf gets to hold 3, but most don't use the third card. Now why would I ever choose the first one? Having an extra option is always better.
That's like saying we fist fight but I have a pistol in my back pocket. I didn't use said pistol but could if I wanted. Everything was fair in that fight? Just because I hold myself back then everything is balanced?
I could use the extra option you don't at any time. Also werewolf doesn't lose anything, a good build doesn't use ALL skill points. Like a mag build putting points into bow because it can? In that case we should revert vampire because they have to put points into their line.
Whereas I view it as "pure mortals" always have the option to be a werewolf if they were actually interested in doing so. Its more like having all three cards and choosing to discard one because of disinterest or an active desire to avoid using that card.
"Then why not keep the card so you have the option?"
Well, I'm never going to use it, so why make an effort (getting bit, becoming a werewolf, leveling the skill line) to keep the card?
Your fist/pistol fight would be applicable if we were talking about pure mortal vs *surprise* werewolf, but in that case, we'd actually be using our werewolf form and have the downsides of doing so. (Or if we didn't use it but I did have the ultimate slotted, I have a measly extra 15% stam recovery. Ooh, that's real brutal, yeah?) I didn't think we were talking about that. In contrast, a pure mortal and a werewolf player without the werewolf ultimate equipped are on equal terms as soon as combat is joined. I might have a "pistol/werewolf ult" in my back pocket, but its tangled all up in my holster/stuck in combat.
Finally, I'm really confused about your reasoning for reverting Vampire. If you want to use your Werewolf form and thus actually gain a gameplay advantage over a pure mortal, you have to put the skill points in. That's an opportunity cost - skill points that could have been used elsewhere - that pure mortals don't have.
"Oh, but good builds don't use all the skill points!"
Then consider that good pure mortal builds have to find that many less skill points and skyshards than good werewolf or good vampire builds. That's opportunity cost.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
In TESV you never woke up well rested as a Werwolf... also there was a cursed ring that controlled your transformation or made it happen in random situations.
However transforming into a Werwolf in front of npcs is now a criminal act. Thats good, and right. But Werwolfs should get also a negative effect called uncontrollable hunger that lets them lose x% max health for each hour they haven't feeded their wolf, till the wolf takes over the controll and you transform.
I miss coments about it too, I liked how Guards told me in Skyrim about my hairy ears or the smell of a wet dog.
If this Uncontrollable Hunger came with the same sort of food/drinks available to control it as the vampire stages, I'd be happy to consider that. Those have been really helpful for players using vampire in PVP and group content, and I think that's a good model if ZOS wants to make werewolf a more actively managed state.
That being said, if we're going to have actively managed debuffs, I'd suggest that ZOS should rework how we have active access to the werewolf state and its passive buffs. Vampires get the benefits and downsides of their passives at all times, which helps explain why they are constantly hungering and feeding. If we apply the same to werewolves, it argues against "all or nothing" werewolf transformations like we have now.0 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
In TESV you never woke up well rested as a Werwolf... also there was a cursed ring that controlled your transformation or made it happen in random situations.
However transforming into a Werwolf in front of npcs is now a criminal act. Thats good, and right. But Werwolfs should get also a negative effect called uncontrollable hunger that lets them lose x% max health for each hour they haven't feeded their wolf, till the wolf takes over the controll and you transform.
I miss coments about it too, I liked how Guards told me in Skyrim about my hairy ears or the smell of a wet dog.
Yeah, that's what I miss. At least SOMETHING that reminds you of werewolf even if not used. That's not happening here. It can literally be relegated to never used at no cost.
Maybe I should play the old scrolls games again.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
Vampire was changed because the passives were permanently active. WW passives aren't, you have to at least waste an ultimate slot.
That's why everyone and their mother was vampire back then but not everyone is a WW now. There is simply no benefit and therefore no reason to change it.
True, but regardless it's still free right? Why not take it on everything?
Because it's pointless. You don't gain anything from it.
You gain a choice of using the new skills, that's not an upside? You can just change to slotting it and use.
While it does give you new options at the end of the day if you don't use it all it becomes is a giant skill point sink. Think the most you'll get out of werewolf passively if you don't use it is slotting the ultimate for the stamina regeneration.What do you mean with "Why be mortal if a werewolf is exactly the same but more?"
Why do you contradict yourself in this quote, saying werewolf is the same as mortal and something more than mortal. Why do you even care that people get infected with lycanthropy and don't use it? You offered a penalties, what is the function of these penalties? Why should "mortals" have advantage over something supernatural? I do not understand anything.
I'll try one more time. An option is an advantage right? If I can only choose left or right, but my friend can choose left, right, up, or down, that's even?
Say we duel and we choose to only use melee. But my opponent has an option to use ranged, but doesnt, this duel is completely even? Even considering he could just plain choose to use ranged whenever?
Say there's 2 cards in your hand to choose, but your opponent has 3 cards. He doesn't choose the extra card, but had a chance to, thats completely even and fair here?
An extra option = an advantage right? If so, then there's functionally no reason to not take the extra option right?
Even if not used, it should still be considered an advantage. I'm NOT asking to nerf werewolf at all. Say just add a 5% skill cost increase on non-werewolf skills so it's not a free take, get it?
You say you don't want to nerf werewolf, but judging by your example, you do want to nerf werewolf players when they aren't in werewolf form and are deriving no benefits from being a werewolf.
When we aren't transformed, we have zero werewolf skills equipped. There are no active or passive werewolf skills when not transformed - its just the ultimate. That's a straight up 5% skill cost increase across the board until we transform.
Again, werewolf is "all or nothing." Even for players who want to play regularly as a werewolf, there's times when your ultimate is down and you aren't transformed - those players have a measly 15% extra stam recovery to compensate them for a 5% extra skill cost. That's not remotely sufficient.
If you want to inflict Werewolf players with a constant penalty, I suggest you start thinking about what constant buffs you intent to give them to balance it out.
Buffs would be fine, Im mostly trying to get my point understood first with that example. An extra option is still an advantage regardless of if its used or not. Otherwise there literally is no choice between werewolf or mortal as one is always better then the other.
Say that I and Player A both use destro staffs for our characters. We're Mag DDs, so that's the only weapons we need.
I unlock and level all the weapon lines on my character, then set those weapons aside, never using them again, and only use a destro staff.
Player A never unlocks the other weapons, has no desire to, and only ever uses a destro staff.
Do I have a gameplay advantage over Player A?
In one sense, yes. I have the more flexible character who can adapt to using different weapons if I so choose. Player A cannot, even though Player A does not care that that they can't.
In another sense, no. As long as we are both using destro staffs, there's no gameplay difference between me and Player A. We're both equally proficient with the weapon we are using. There's no debuff for having more weapon lines unlocked and leveled/no buff for specializing in a single weapon, so my extra weapon lines mean jack all.
You seem to be arguing that, yes, having the extra choice and flexibility is its own advantage and must be paid for in a nerf or debuff to werewolves.
Many of us are arguing that, no, as long as we're using the same thing (pure mortals are identical to players not using any werewolf abilities), there's no gameplay difference. So if you want to nerf/debuff werewolves, you'd better start thinking about buffs too.
In terms of weapons, what benefit does Player A gain from not leveling all the weapon choices as I did?
Well, they lose choice and flexibility. But that doesn't really matter to them, as they are very happy with destro staff.
They gain in opportunity cost - what they were doing while I was pursuing that choice and flexibility.
They gain the time I spent leveling those skill lines.
They gain the skill points otherwise spent leveling those skill lines and the gold used to refund the points if I don't leave them active.
In the same way, pure mortals gain the opportunity cost of the time, effort, and gold/crowns werewolf players spend getting bitten and leveling their werewolf. And crucially, pure mortals generally aren't interested in the werewolf skill line in the first place. That choice they are "losing"...isn't usually a choice they cared about in the first place. My Altmer MagSorc, for instance, loses absolutely nothing because she's not a werewolf. It would be pointless on her build.
"But you'd have the option! Why not go for it?!"
Yeah, I'd have the option to level a werewolf who hits like a wet noodle because its on a magicka build. Been there, done that, seriously not interested.
(Now, I'm aware that all analogies break down eventually and the weapon skill lines analogy will probably reach its limits soon. Nevertheless, I think its its illustrative of the idea that "choice is its own advantage" vs "extra choices don't convey advantages when they aren't being used and don't convey a disadvantage when they aren't desired.")
Actually you missed a point in that argument. One player DOES NOT have an extra option in mine. Your example shows that both CAN use the other option.
Look at it this way. Pure mortal gets to hold 2 cards. Werewolf gets to hold 3, but most don't use the third card. Now why would I ever choose the first one? Having an extra option is always better.
That's like saying we fist fight but I have a pistol in my back pocket. I didn't use said pistol but could if I wanted. Everything was fair in that fight? Just because I hold myself back then everything is balanced?
I could use the extra option you don't at any time. Also werewolf doesn't lose anything, a good build doesn't use ALL skill points. Like a mag build putting points into bow because it can? In that case we should revert vampire because they have to put points into their line.
Whereas I view it as "pure mortals" always have the option to be a werewolf if they were actually interested in doing so. Its more like having all three cards and choosing to discard one because of disinterest or an active desire to avoid using that card.
"Then why not keep the card so you have the option?"
Well, I'm never going to use it, so why make an effort (getting bit, becoming a werewolf, leveling the skill line) to keep the card?
Your fist/pistol fight would be applicable if we were talking about pure mortal vs *surprise* werewolf, but in that case, we'd actually be using our werewolf form and have the downsides of doing so. (Or if we didn't use it but I did have the ultimate slotted, I have a measly extra 15% stam recovery. Ooh, that's real brutal, yeah?) I didn't think we were talking about that. In contrast, a pure mortal and a werewolf player without the werewolf ultimate equipped are on equal terms as soon as combat is joined. I might have a "pistol/werewolf ult" in my back pocket, but its tangled all up in my holster/stuck in combat.
Finally, I'm really confused about your reasoning for reverting Vampire. If you want to use your Werewolf form and thus actually gain a gameplay advantage over a pure mortal, you have to put the skill points in. That's an opportunity cost - skill points that could have been used elsewhere - that pure mortals don't have.
"Oh, but good builds don't use all the skill points!"
Then consider that good pure mortal builds have to find that many less skill points and skyshards than good werewolf or good vampire builds. That's opportunity cost.
I'm done. I just thought that being normal should have it's own advantage to at least consider. But I guess it's just vampires vs werewolves. And yes, all my non vamps are wolves. There's no reason not to.
Still, an extra option isn't an advantage? I guess not in this game for some reason. I can just keep the skills for free and don't have to lose anything. Don't even have to use points.Edited by Ryuvain on January 30, 2021 4:17AMThat one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
jonzhao68✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
No it wasn't. It was changed because it was only taken for the passive bonuses from the skill line. WW is different in that you gain absolutely nothing unless you use up an ultimate slot for the WW skill. Vampire has drawbacks because (although a bit excessive) because you gain some pretty nice benefits from the Vampire passives without ever having to slot a Vampire skill. Personally, I am a Vampire mainly for the ability to sprint around in stealth. Really not sure why you're on this crusade against Werewolves here. Who cares if someone chooses to take the skill line or not? Why does it matter at all? You're asking for WW players to be punished for being a WW for no other reason than it bothers you.2 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
No it wasn't. It was changed because it was only taken for the passive bonuses from the skill line. WW is different in that you gain absolutely nothing unless you use up an ultimate slot for the WW skill. Vampire has drawbacks because (although a bit excessive) because you gain some pretty nice benefits from the Vampire passives without ever having to slot a Vampire skill. Personally, I am a Vampire mainly for the ability to sprint around in stealth. Really not sure why you're on this crusade against Werewolves here. Who cares if someone chooses to take the skill line or not? Why does it matter at all? You're asking for WW players to be punished for being a WW for no other reason than it bothers you.
Two words, balance and choice. The only choice here is do you want werewolf for free. Not if it is worth the downside for the upside.
I'm just clarifying that, not continuing this.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
jonzhao68✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
No it wasn't. It was changed because it was only taken for the passive bonuses from the skill line. WW is different in that you gain absolutely nothing unless you use up an ultimate slot for the WW skill. Vampire has drawbacks because (although a bit excessive) because you gain some pretty nice benefits from the Vampire passives without ever having to slot a Vampire skill. Personally, I am a Vampire mainly for the ability to sprint around in stealth. Really not sure why you're on this crusade against Werewolves here. Who cares if someone chooses to take the skill line or not? Why does it matter at all? You're asking for WW players to be punished for being a WW for no other reason than it bothers you.
Two words, balance and choice. The only choice here is do you want werewolf for free. Not if it is worth the downside for the upside.
I'm just clarifying that, not continuing this.
There is nothing to clarify. You don't like seeing so many Werewolves, so you want a system put in place that forces them to make sacrifices for choosing to become a Werewolf. Even if it were rebalanced to provide passive buffs like Vampire does, you want to make sure that people that choose Werewolf have some sort of drawback to deter some people from choosing to become a Werewolf. Your reasoning for this has nothing to do with balance or anything else. Your sole motivation here is simply the fact that you don't like seeing so many Werewolves. [snip]
[Edited to remove Non-Constructive Content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 30, 2021 2:17PM4 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
No it wasn't. It was changed because it was only taken for the passive bonuses from the skill line. WW is different in that you gain absolutely nothing unless you use up an ultimate slot for the WW skill. Vampire has drawbacks because (although a bit excessive) because you gain some pretty nice benefits from the Vampire passives without ever having to slot a Vampire skill. Personally, I am a Vampire mainly for the ability to sprint around in stealth. Really not sure why you're on this crusade against Werewolves here. Who cares if someone chooses to take the skill line or not? Why does it matter at all? You're asking for WW players to be punished for being a WW for no other reason than it bothers you.
Two words, balance and choice. The only choice here is do you want werewolf for free. Not if it is worth the downside for the upside.
I'm just clarifying that, not continuing this.
There is nothing to clarify. You don't like seeing so many Werewolves, so you want a system put in place that forces them to make sacrifices for choosing to become a Werewolf. Even if it were rebalanced to provide passive buffs like Vampire does, you want to make sure that people that choose Werewolf have some sort of drawback to deter some people from choosing to become a Werewolf. Your reasoning for this has nothing to do with balance or anything else. Your sole motivation here is simply the fact that you don't like seeing so many Werewolves. [snip]
Btw I advocated for buffs for werewolf when they were still bad, and even wanted behemoth to be playable. Heck, I like them over vampire and have much more than my vamps.
[Edit to remove reference of removed content]Edited by [Deleted User] on January 31, 2021 12:44AMThat one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.0 -
jonzhao68✭✭I'm not sure where the campaign to have advantages as a "mortal" even gets off. You're a regular person. Basic. Vanilla. You are the baseline. No curses, no daedric "blessings", no supernatural gifts. You're clean. That's your advantage. When you die, your soul is welcomed into Aetherius or whatever. There's your bonus.
Why do you feel entitled to having bonuses for... nothing?
I'm not trying to sound snarky or make a point; I'm literally asking. Is it about balance? Is it that you're feeling there's some problem with the game that needs addressing? I want to understand.
And just for context, this is coming from a player that almost never uses what few werewolf or vampire characters I have -- even back when they were strongest, they just didn't really do it for me. If I have any clear bias, I'd say it's from a "mortal" (non-ww/vamp) mindset.
This is the point I've repeatedly trying to make. Why be mortal when werewolf is exactly the same thing except with an extra choice? This is coming entirely from game mechanics, not rp stuff like what happens when you die.
With how werewolf is right now, there's no problem if it ends up with most of the playerbase being werewolf because it's free? Just saying that vampire was changed because of that reason.
No it wasn't. It was changed because it was only taken for the passive bonuses from the skill line. WW is different in that you gain absolutely nothing unless you use up an ultimate slot for the WW skill. Vampire has drawbacks because (although a bit excessive) because you gain some pretty nice benefits from the Vampire passives without ever having to slot a Vampire skill. Personally, I am a Vampire mainly for the ability to sprint around in stealth. Really not sure why you're on this crusade against Werewolves here. Who cares if someone chooses to take the skill line or not? Why does it matter at all? You're asking for WW players to be punished for being a WW for no other reason than it bothers you.
Two words, balance and choice. The only choice here is do you want werewolf for free. Not if it is worth the downside for the upside.
I'm just clarifying that, not continuing this.
There is nothing to clarify. You don't like seeing so many Werewolves, so you want a system put in place that forces them to make sacrifices for choosing to become a Werewolf. Even if it were rebalanced to provide passive buffs like Vampire does, you want to make sure that people that choose Werewolf have some sort of drawback to deter some people from choosing to become a Werewolf. Your reasoning for this has nothing to do with balance or anything else. Your sole motivation here is simply the fact that you don't like seeing so many Werewolves. [snip]
Btw I advocated for buffs for werewolf when they were still bad, and even wanted behemoth to be playable. Heck, I like them over vampire and have much more than my vamps.
It's not a change for the purpose of balance though. It is a change you want implemented for no other reason than to see less Werewolves. Right now, a player that takes Werewolf but doesn't use any of the skills has 0 effect on balance, and you have no logical argument at all against it.Edited by [Deleted User] on January 31, 2021 12:45AM3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »Moonsorrow wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »With me being able to see player buffs with an add-on it's sad to see so many players who are werewolves and don't use it. No downside to unslotting it.
That's exactly what would happen if vampire had a stage zero. Maybe it's time werewolf had some small permanent downside that you can't turn off? Werewolf numbers aren't apparent until you can see them through buffs.
Still waiting for that vampire advantage to show itself.
Mist Form.
Mist form is the best skill in the line no doubt.
BUT unfortunately it's only useable in PvP practically so not exactly a good advantage to have if you don't PvP.
Also everything else about the line except mist form is kind of bad. Nothing really advantageous over a mortal player
That's what my original response was about, memeing about werewolves and mortals being the two topics of discussion here meanwhile vamp is just kinda
*Dead"
Mist Form is a very solid tool in PvE as well. Tankbusters will still take out a misted DPS, but Mist Form is a very strong panic button for times when you need mitigation and don't need to worry about dealing damage. vAS is still my go-to example where Mistform can be very useful, though it's not the only example.0