YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What is this thread even about?

One wonders....

So if I get this right, there is an argument being made that new players/existing players should
need to grind the equivilent number of hours as vets already have before they can be allowed to be on an equal setting?

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Why would you need a CP conversion? If you haven't been playing the game then that's on you.

That's kind of an odd one. I've got around 1000 CP, which is well above the current cap of 810, but well below the future cap of 3600.

When I play a lot, it's PVP. So while my AP per hour is fairly decent, it's not exactly stellar EXP gains compared to most PVE content, you know?

I've been playing through the last several Events with double exp, but honestly I didn't bother grabbing the EXP buff. Why bother? Since I've got around 1000 CP, there wasn't much point to getting more CP. Until now, that is.

Likewise, I've got a stockpile of EXP scrolls from daily logins because there wasn't any point to using them. Until now, that is.

So it's not necessarily the case that players over CP 810 haven't been playing the game. Its just that once we hit CP 810, the urgency of grinding out those additional CP over the cap kinda goes away.


I'm not super thrilled to be going from 100% of the old system to around 30% or so of the new system. I suppose it's good for new players that relatively few players are going to start off in the stratosphere, CP-wise. For myself, I don't particularly care to do the exp-grinding activities like dolmen-running, skyreach runs, or regularly doing a bunch of dailies instead of playing the content I want to do that's more enjoyable but less lucrative in exp.

VaranisArano wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Why would you need a CP conversion? If you haven't been playing the game then that's on you.

That's kind of an odd one. I've got around 1000 CP, which is well above the current cap of 810, but well below the future cap of 3600.

When I play a lot, it's PVP. So while my AP per hour is fairly decent, it's not exactly stellar EXP gains compared to most PVE content, you know?

I've been playing through the last several Events with double exp, but honestly I didn't bother grabbing the EXP buff. Why bother? Since I've got around 1000 CP, there wasn't much point to getting more CP. Until now, that is.

Likewise, I've got a stockpile of EXP scrolls from daily logins because there wasn't any point to using them. Until now, that is.

So it's not necessarily the case that players over CP 810 haven't been playing the game. Its just that once we hit CP 810, the urgency of grinding out those additional CP over the cap kinda goes away.


I'm not super thrilled to be going from 100% of the old system to around 30% or so of the new system. I suppose it's good for new players that relatively few players are going to start off in the stratosphere, CP-wise. For myself, I don't particularly care to do the exp-grinding activities like dolmen-running, skyreach runs, or regularly doing a bunch of dailies instead of playing the content I want to do that's more enjoyable but less lucrative in exp.

Yeah, this is my sentiment with the CP gain rate. I think they should expand the increased gain from 1200 cp to 2000 cp. This would give the players who have been well over the current cap who weren't grinding unnecessary at the time cp a chance for greater cp gains but not necessarily maxing out the cp cap easily.

nukk3r wrote: »

Matchimus wrote: »

So if I get this right, there is an argument being made that new players/existing players should
need to grind the equivilent number of hours as vets already have before they can be allowed to be on an equal setting?

No. New players can and should enjoy the new benefits but vet players shouldn't be screwed over like this. I, for example, have ~1300CP. If the math is right in this comment then a new player will be at 2980 CP if they spend as much time as I did but I will only be at 1300 CP when the patch goes live without a conversion. If they play like me they'll get to my current level in about 800-1k hours, I've spent 6k hours in game.

How exactly did that comment come up with that info when the exp required to level up on live and pts right now is identical.. The exp curve has not been adjusted yet (despite comments in the notes that it has).

Matt explained it today in an interview in the german bethesda twitch stream.

The cap is NOT 3600, it is 1200. This is the "vertical" maximum.
Everything above until 3600 is optional, allowing you to use different cp settings for different situations. This is the "horizontal" progression.

So with 1200 you will be at 100% of the maximum damage that can be reached.


In my own words: cp1200 is a "must" for optimal gameplay, cp 1200-3600 is a "nice to have".
It allows you to combine on 1 single character what you used before on 2 or more, like a PVE CP setting as well as a PVP CP setting. Simply by switching the "stars". It offers more variety, but it does not make you any stronger.

markulrich1966 wrote: »

Matt explained it today in an interview in the german bethesda twitch stream.

The cap is NOT 3600, it is 1200. This is the "vertical" maximum.
Everything above until 3600 is optional, allowing you to use different cp settings for different situations. This is the "horizontal" progression.

So with 1200 you will be at 100% of the maximum damage that can be reached.


In my own words: cp1200 is a "must" for optimal gameplay, cp 1200-3600 is a "nice to have".
It allows you to combine on 1 single character what you used before on 2 or more, like a PVE CP setting as well as a PVP CP setting. Simply by switching the "stars". It offers more variety, but it does not make you any stronger.

If you actually look at the CP nodes, that is demonstrably false:

In the blue constellation there are several non-slottable passives that have a direct impact on damage. They add up to well more than 400 CP, which is the maximum investable blue points on an account with 1200 total CP. Then there are things that indirectly help damage, which shouldn’t be ignored either if we’re interested in maximizing overall damage.

Here’s a stamina dps example:

50 in Piercing, 100 in Battle Mastery, and 30 in Mighty require 180 total points in just the one minimage alone. They’re all non-slotted passives that directly improve damage done.

Then there’s 50 required in the non-slotted Tireless Discipline for more maximum stamina, and 50 more CP are required in Precision for the extra crit rating.

Now we’re at 280 CP required for non-slotted passives but need to add 200 more for maximizing four actively slotted nodes, which exceeds the quoted limit of 400 total blue points by 80.

(One could argue that the extra 80 points in Battle Mastery isn’t going to make a huge difference, but the claim was about maximizing damage in absolute terms, and applying status effects more frequently certainly qualifies as doing that.)

Then we’ve also ignored several non-slotted passives that stand to raise average damage indirectly by helping to prevent a serious case of floorparsing (a.k.a. “dead dps does no dps”). Every bit of damage mitigation helps survivability, which in turn helps damage done. The other minimage can cost up to 200 CP for maximum passive (non-slotted) benefit there.

1200 may be a nice round number to get the majority of the benefits of the new system, but it is not the absolute vertical limit.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

markulrich1966 wrote: »

Matt explained it today in an interview in the german bethesda twitch stream.

The cap is NOT 3600, it is 1200. This is the "vertical" maximum.
Everything above until 3600 is optional, allowing you to use different cp settings for different situations. This is the "horizontal" progression.

So with 1200 you will be at 100% of the maximum damage that can be reached.


In my own words: cp1200 is a "must" for optimal gameplay, cp 1200-3600 is a "nice to have".
It allows you to combine on 1 single character what you used before on 2 or more, like a PVE CP setting as well as a PVP CP setting. Simply by switching the "stars". It offers more variety, but it does not make you any stronger.

If you actually look at the CP nodes, that is demonstrably false:

In the blue constellation there are several non-slottable passives that have a direct impact on damage. They add up to well more than 400 CP, which is the maximum investable blue points on an account with 1200 total CP. Then there are things that indirectly help damage, which shouldn’t be ignored either if we’re interested in maximizing overall damage.

Here’s a stamina dps example:

50 in Piercing, 100 in Battle Mastery, and 30 in Mighty require 180 total points in just the one minimage alone. They’re all non-slotted passives that directly improve damage done.

Then there’s 50 required in the non-slotted Tireless Discipline for more maximum stamina, and 50 more CP are required in Precision for the extra crit rating.

Now we’re at 280 CP required for non-slotted passives but need to add 200 more for maximizing four actively slotted nodes, which exceeds the quoted limit of 400 total blue points by 80.

(One could argue that the extra 80 points in Battle Mastery isn’t going to make a huge difference, but the claim was about maximizing damage in absolute terms, and applying status effects more frequently certainly qualifies as doing that.)

Then we’ve also ignored several non-slotted passives that stand to raise average damage indirectly by helping to prevent a serious case of floorparsing (a.k.a. “dead dps does no dps”). Every bit of damage mitigation helps survivability, which in turn helps damage done. The other minimage can cost up to 200 CP for maximum passive (non-slotted) benefit there.

1200 may be a nice round number to get the majority of the benefits of the new system, but it is not the absolute vertical limit.

The Stamina star is hardly going to make-or-break your DPS though. It provides, what, 1350 Stamina? That translates into 1350 / 10.5 = 129 Weapon Damage equivalent which is likely something like 1% DPS. Nearly any player would realize a substantially larger gain simply by improving their LA weaving ratio.

The mitigation argument is true at some level but I fear that it strays close to the mentality where extreme DPS simply allows you to skip mechanics that are otherwise intended to be followed by the developers. It also reads as a call to arms against the idea of having healers return to actually being healers (as opposed to merely 'buff bots') and tanks to a more active role in protecting their groups and wearing safety sets rather than simply being vehicles for additional damage-support sets.

Such a return to the classic RPG trinity (in my eyes) would hardly be the worst thing for the game.

Some of those nodes are hardly gamechangers, for sure! But the claim was literally that 1200 CP can provide “100% of the maximum damage that can be reached.” That’s an absolute claim and thus one that was fairly easy to refute. Now, I can see why ZOS is promoting 1200 as a pseudo-cap, so to speak, but I think it’s important for players to understand that’s not the absolute cap on vertical progression, especially because there’s so much confusion right now about the new system and how it works and perhaps more importantly its future potential.

Personally I’m not in the astronomical CP zone, but I’ve been beyond cap since they froze it (just past 1350 now). I’ve been immensely frustrated and disappointed with the absolutely nonexistent vertical progression since then. I’m glad to know that there will be an eminently attainable goal at 1200 that still feels like an achievement but also that people already past it can still look forward to eking out even a couple more percentage points of damage and damage reduction in the future as a reward for continued time spent. This is a large part of what’s been missing for me since Murkmire — the sense of progression, the psychological impact of which often eclipses the actual statistical gains.

As for the point about survivability, damage reduction indisputably plays a part in enabling the effacing of non-dps roles and their reduction to “[dps] support” at the expense of their own identities. Personally I certainly wouldn’t advocate the exclusion of tanks and healers, as the trinity is both familiar and welcome and has long had a place in the game. My argument above was a very linear one focused solely on disproving a claim about damage statistics. The social impact of CP is an element all its own, and one deserving of its own discussion. I do think dps survivability is not per se anti-tank or -heals: I have seen even very good healers and tanks suffer under undue pressure from dps who could have used more survivability. (And it can be very hard to learn how to survive when one doesn’t have some leeway in the first place to make mistakes.) And having all these nodes in the same tree in CP 2.0 does seem to limit the potential for dps to reach the absolute maximum for both damage and damage mitigation simultaneously to those who have upwards of 2000 CP. (I could see arguments either way here: do they deserve it at that point? does it threaten to alienate healers and tanks even more in endgame?) In my view, ZOS’ decision to bake in about 8k HP and 15% damage reduction—and then make extra resources and regen even more readily accessible through additional CP nodes—does a lot to relegate blue tree damage reduction CP to an auxiliary role. I wonder if the newly baked-in stats aren’t a bigger issue for players concerned (rightfully so, imo) about becoming even more non grata.

Nairinhe wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Matchimus wrote: »

So if I get this right, there is an argument being made that new players/existing players should
need to grind the equivilent number of hours as vets already have before they can be allowed to be on an equal setting?

No. New players can and should enjoy the new benefits but vet players shouldn't be screwed over like this. I, for example, have ~1300CP. If the math is right in this comment then a new player will be at 2980 CP if they spend as much time as I did but I will only be at 1300 CP when the patch goes live without a conversion. If they play like me they'll get to my current level in about 800-1k hours, I've spent 6k hours in game.

You've already spent 6k hours and have enjoyed being max CP for some time. A new player yet needs to spend 6k hours.
Imagine the gap between new and old players if they did convert CP.

And whats the problem if theres a gap? Isnt zos saying past 1200 is just convenience?

So? Then why nerf that convenience for old players? We can'thave that? But the new ones can reach 1200 faster than we never had...?? I dont wanna be stronger or make the new players leveling slowly with a conversion. I want equality.

RazielSR wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Matchimus wrote: »

So if I get this right, there is an argument being made that new players/existing players should
need to grind the equivilent number of hours as vets already have before they can be allowed to be on an equal setting?

No. New players can and should enjoy the new benefits but vet players shouldn't be screwed over like this. I, for example, have ~1300CP. If the math is right in this comment then a new player will be at 2980 CP if they spend as much time as I did but I will only be at 1300 CP when the patch goes live without a conversion. If they play like me they'll get to my current level in about 800-1k hours, I've spent 6k hours in game.

You've already spent 6k hours and have enjoyed being max CP for some time. A new player yet needs to spend 6k hours.
Imagine the gap between new and old players if they did convert CP.

And whats the problem if theres a gap? Isnt zos saying past 1200 is just convenience?

So? Then why nerf that convenience for old players? We can'thave that? But the new ones can reach 1200 faster than we never had...?? I dont wanna be stronger or make the new players leveling slowly with a conversion. I want equality.

i highly advice you to press on this link and take a look at the picutre (you can read further if it interests you).
Yes you want equality, but you are given equity, which is far better in any point of view.

there is a german therm of your feeling which is "futterneid" its a concept from the animal kingdom. where predetors defend their food at all cost and sometimes even eat more than they would normaly, just so no other predetor can have some of the prey.

equality and equity explained: https://interactioninstitute.org/illustrating-equality-vs-equity/