Racial changes on PTS

Raideen · January 2021

How come magicka is not offered the same luxury in the amount of racials that benefit magicka as stamina gets? Magicka was already lacking, but the change to Argonians now making them more beneficial as stamina than magicka is just a slap in the face. EDIT: The information I saw from a you tube video was incorrect. I verified on the PTS that Argonians are given stamina but not at the cost of removing the magicka.

5 Races that benefit Magicka: Breton, High Elf, Khajiit, Dark Elf, Argonian
8 Races that benefit Stamina: Redguard, Orc, Bosmer, Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Khahiit, Dark Elf

and seriously, the buff to orcs...are we playing the same game?!?!?!?

The ongoing and ever more supported meta is going to be Stamina Orcs.

Is it possible to get a refund on my preorder @ZOS_GinaBruno

asuitandtyb14_ESO · January 2021

I think ZoS has lost the plot on racials for a long time by now. That being said, Argonians are not a magicka race. They traditionally are immune to poisons and diseases, have incredible stamina and some stealth due to being guerilla fighters and Sithis worsshippers, and are known as quite proficient with bow, dagger and spear.

Raideen · January 2021

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

asuitandtyb14_ESO · January 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

I understand, but that's irrelevant. You want equity I guess, but this is more in line with the racials that an Argonian should have.

Jacozilla · January 2021

Edit - to rephrase better. Did Dark Elves get substantially changed on pts?

OP lumped them in as stam race and I originally thought to reply DE is hybrid, neither favoring mag or stam - exact same stats for both.

But haven’t checked PTS so wondering the above - are DEs on pts no longer hybrid? More stats for stam?

Raideen · January 2021

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

I understand, but that's irrelevant. You want equity I guess, but this is more in line with the racials that an Argonian should have.

But it's not irrelevant because that is the topic of my post. Why do magicka players get 50% less choice for racials that benefit magicka.

Raideen · January 2021

Jacozilla wrote: »

Not taking sides pro or anti OP, but it is pretty factual, not opinion, that dark elf is equally good as either stam or mag.

Equally good as in can do either with no better stats to either archetype - DE is perfect hybrid with exact same stats buff to stam vs mag. Not saying it is the bis race for either mag or stam, just correcting OP who placed DE as stam favoring race when clearly it is equal preference for either.

Please re-read my OP. I included Dark elf and Khajiit in the magicka and stamina categories. Magicka players still get 50% less choice to choose from in regards to racials that benefit magicka players.

asuitandtyb14_ESO · January 2021

A

Raideen wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

I understand, but that's irrelevant. You want equity I guess, but this is more in line with the racials that an Argonian should have.

But it's not irrelevant because that is the topic of my post. Why do magicka players get 50% less choice for racials that benefit magicka.

Alright, well let's break it down then.

As you said, "How come magicka is not offered the same luxury in the amount of racials that benefit magicka as stamina gets?"

Well equity is not guaranteed. There is no equity in races because that's not how things work. If you want to be the best at magicka naturally, you have always had the option of Altmer, followed by Breton. This has basically been the lore, which is also represented by stats, for most of the games. Every other race can use magicka, but not as naturally as those two. Of course some are stronger in the middle of the pack, like Dunmer.

ESO is strange, because magic abilities are tied into almost everything but pure weapon skills. In other games of TES, you generally saw them segmented off more. Most conflicts in Tamriel would be fought with weapons, as it easier and more common for the majority of non-Altmer and non-Breton races.

So there you have the logic and lore for the reasons. Again, you have not lost options. You can break the mold and play a magicka character as any race. But there will always be some that can do it naturally better.

ArgonianAustin · January 2021

Huh? They took away the magicka on argonian? I didnt see that. They added 1000 stamina i thought.

Yeah just re-read it and it says "this passive now Also grants 1000stamina".

Anyron · January 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

Argonians still have magicka and health , now they have stamina too..
So argonians are now hybrid
But nothing changes for magicka argonians..

Raideen · January 2021

Anyron wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Ok, well argonians used to get magicka, its now stamina. That places them firmly in the stamina category as far as racial benefits. This gives magicka players 50% less races to choose from. That is the point.

Argonians still have magicka and health , now they have stamina too..
So argonians are now hybrid
But nothing changes for magicka argonians..

Thank you. I just logged into the PTS and verified it.

Raideen · January 2021

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

Huh? They took away the magicka on argonian? I didnt see that. They added 1000 stamina i thought.

Yeah just re-read it and it says "this passive now Also grants 1000stamina".

You are correct. The information I saw on you tube was wrong. I confirmed on the PTS that argonians were given stamina, but not at the cost of losing the magicka.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

I think ZoS has lost the plot on racials for a long time by now. That being said, Argonians are not a magicka race. They traditionally are immune to poisons and diseases, have incredible stamina and some stealth due to being guerilla fighters and Sithis worsshippers, and are known as quite proficient with bow, dagger and spear.

Huh?

In Morrowind and Oblivion, Argonians have bonuses to Intelligence (the stat that governs Magicka) as well as Mysticism and Illusion.

In Skyrim they have bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

They are definitely a Magicka class.

asuitandtyb14_ESO · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

I think ZoS has lost the plot on racials for a long time by now. That being said, Argonians are not a magicka race. They traditionally are immune to poisons and diseases, have incredible stamina and some stealth due to being guerilla fighters and Sithis worsshippers, and are known as quite proficient with bow, dagger and spear.

Huh?

In Morrowind and Oblivion, Argonians have bonuses to Intelligence (the stat that governs Magicka) as well as Mysticism and Illusion.

In Skyrim they have bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

They are definitely a Magicka class.

I think you missed my point. I also stated that every race can use magicka. My point was some are better than others, which is why I detailed that hierarchy. Finally, I stated the concept behind some racials. Argonians get the magicka bonuses to schools that fit their culture, that being one of stealth, survival and geurilla warfare.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

I think ZoS has lost the plot on racials for a long time by now. That being said, Argonians are not a magicka race. They traditionally are immune to poisons and diseases, have incredible stamina and some stealth due to being guerilla fighters and Sithis worsshippers, and are known as quite proficient with bow, dagger and spear.

Huh?

In Morrowind and Oblivion, Argonians have bonuses to Intelligence (the stat that governs Magicka) as well as Mysticism and Illusion.

In Skyrim they have bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

They are definitely a Magicka class.

I think you missed my point. I also stated that every race can use magicka. My point was some are better than others, which is why I detailed that hierarchy. Finally, I stated the concept behind some racials. Argonians get the magicka bonuses to schools that fit their culture, that being one of stealth, survival and geurilla warfare.

From their in-game bonuses they really are more thieves/assassins than traditional warriors, basically the best Nightblades (in the pre-Skryim class system) in Tamriel along with the Dunmer.

They are, emphatically, not primarily a Stamina race.

I don't have a problem with Argonians receiving a line of Stamina to reflect their prowess with Spears, Short-Swords, and Sneaking but neither can you shrug off their demonstrated acumen with the various schools of magic.

However, one thing that we can all likely agree upon is that the potion bonus nerf was unwarranted. Further, their bonus to Healing Done should be increased to at least +10%. Do all of those things and you have a much better-rounded race that reflects its heritage through all of the games and lore.

Digibrax · January 2021

Yaaay! Now my Argonian stamina healer is more viable XD

Elwendryll · January 2021

Digibrax wrote: »

Yaaay! Now my Argonian stamina healer is more viable XD

Please tell me it's a warden.

Lysette · January 2021

Seen from TES:Oblivion female Argonians are quite magicka based (50 intelligence, 40 willpower), whereas male Argonians are much like Bosmer (50 agility, 50 speed). Both genders have poor endurance (30), which shouldn't make them a good stamina race - but anyway, ZOS is so far off the past with all of this, it's like they pull it out of thin air.

Foto1 · January 2021

all races of the TES universe can be both magicians and warriors. ideally, I would like all TESO races to be universal

Digibrax · January 2021

Elwendryll wrote: »

Digibrax wrote: »

Yaaay! Now my Argonian stamina healer is more viable XD

Please tell me it's a warden.

Of course it is. And a bow/bow one

Her name is Lusts-For Shrooms

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

My observations so far regarding Argonian (PTS):

- In general - Argonian racial passives feels... underwhelming to say the least.
- Sustain is way too hard, as racial sustain passive took a huge nerf (3125 recurses vs 4000 recurses currently on live).
- It is better to go for passive recovery (potion based builds were killed-of).
- There is no CP to boost potion-based playstyle (no cooldwon, duration or resource restore from potion CP bonus). It feels incoherent as other types of recoveries are supported by CP.
- Argonians still have almost "zero" offensive potential, and on top of that they no longer have decent sustain too.
- Healing bonus they have is still too low to be relevant (tested it, casted a couple of heals with a character with no passives and then bought live mender... I could barely notice any difference).
- Swim speed bonus seems to be more impactful than live mender...
- Stamina bonus is nice, but it wont make Argonians a event a decent stam dps.
- Poison resistance instead of disease immunity is very nice and also fits perfectly (lore).

My main pain points:

Life Mender:
Like I have said, It feels... like this passive is not there. I can place points out of it and I can barely notice any difference. To put it into perspective - Swimming speed bonus seems more impactful than this healing bonus... it is that weak.... 6% healing done only...
Meanwhile gear set bonus is 4%... As far as I can tell, when it was changed during racial rebalance the gear set bonus was 2%. Later on it was buffed to 4%, but Argonian passive was left untouched.

^ It needs to be looked at as this passive seems to be below current standards.

Resourceful:
Nerf in effective to this passive feels like it is too big, and unnecessary (did any one complained about it ? ? ? ). This passive was always mathematically stronger as it is not affected by passive % recovery bonus and CP and it requires a consumable to use. So it has quite a substitutional kiss-curse effect. Also, it is important to remember that situations when you will actually use its full potential (recover all 3 resources) are extremely rare. Most of the time you use it to get one or two resource pools back and the 3rd is almost always wasted.

I remember that during racial rebalance in Wrathstone, 2+ years ago, there were also some troubles with determining value of this passive as by its nature - it is supposed to be slightly stronger (kiss-curse effect).

As for the CP, there is no CP that would correspond with this type of potion based recovery & sustain either. There is no CP that would increase resources restored by potion or a way to reduce potion cooldown with CP.

^ It is another thing that needs to be looked at, as it feels incoherent.

Now, since we have another racial passive re-balance, last thing I would like to see is some race becoming more useless than it already is for the next 2 years. Currently, on live Argonians are ok-ish tanks and that is pretty much it. They are worst in terms of DPS and even not good when it comes to healer role. They are not "meta" and are considered one of the worst races in terms of passives (if not the worse) - and will defiantly stay there as even their Tank role wont be as good decent as it is now on live server.

Other races will be far superior. To put this into perspective - If current PTS changes will go live - even Orcs (they have new spell dmg bonus) will be better healers and I hope it says something...

Kurat · January 2021

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

My observations so far regarding Argonian (PTS):

- In general - Argonian racial passives feels... underwhelming to say the least.
- Sustain is way too hard, as racial sustain passive took a huge nerf (3125 recurses vs 4000 recurses currently on live).
- It is better to go for passive recovery (potion based builds were killed-of).
- There is no CP to boost potion-based playstyle (no cooldwon, duration or resource restore from potion CP bonus). It feels incoherent as other types of recoveries are supported by CP.
- Argonians still have almost "zero" offensive potential, and on top of that they no longer have decent sustain too.
- Healing bonus they have is still too low to be relevant (tested it, casted a couple of heals with a character with no passives and then bought live mender... I could barely notice any difference).
- Swim speed bonus seems to be more impactful than live mender...
- Stamina bonus is nice, but it wont make Argonians a event a decent stam dps.
- Poison resistance instead of disease immunity is very nice and also fits perfectly (lore).

My main pain points:

Life Mender:
Like I have said, It feels... like this passive is not there. I can place points out of it and I can barely notice any difference. To put it into perspective - Swimming speed bonus seems more impactful than this healing bonus... it is that weak.... 6% healing done only...
Meanwhile gear set bonus is 4%... As far as I can tell, when it was changed during racial rebalance the gear set bonus was 2%. Later on it was buffed to 4%, but Argonian passive was left untouched.
^ It needs to be looked at as this passive seems to be below current standards.

Resourceful:
Nerf in effective to this passive feels like it is too big, and unnecessary (did any one complained about it ? ? ? ). This passive was always mathematically stronger as it is not affected by passive % recovery bonus and CP and it requires a consumable to use. So it has quite a substitutional kiss-curse effect. Also, it is important to remember that situations when you will actually use its full potential (recover all 3 resources) are extremely rare. Most of the time you use it to get one or two resource pools back and the 3rd is almost always wasted.

I remember that during racial rebalance in Wrathstone, 2+ years ago, there were also some troubles with determining value of this passive as by its nature - it is supposed to be slightly stronger (kiss-curse effect).

As for the CP, there is no CP that would correspond with this type of potion based recovery & sustain either. There is no CP that would increase resources restored by potion or a way to reduce potion cooldown with CP.
^ It is another thing that needs to be looked at, as it feels incoherent.

Now, since we have another racial passive re-balance, last thing I would like to see is some race becoming more useless than it already is for the next 2 years. Currently, on live Argonians are ok-ish tanks and that is pretty much it. They are worst in terms of DPS and even not good when it comes to healer role. They are not "meta" and are considered one of the worst races in terms of passives (if not the worse) - and will defiantly stay there as even their Tank role wont be as good decent as it is now on live server.

Other races will be far superior. To put this into perspective - If current PTS changes will go live - even Orcs (they have new spell dmg bonus) will be better healers and I hope it says something...

I have Argonian warden dps. On PTS I cant even parse on 21 mil without having to do some heavy attacks lol. Play as you want, really? Go Breton or go home.

Ascarl · January 2021

For some other race nerfs my two copper coins:

Nord nerf: while I see the reasoning for PVP and maybe tanking, the Nord race seems to be lacking right now. The tone-down would be okay if Nords would get some compensation in terms of offensive power.

Khajiit: the extra 2% damage and healing done does not offset the nerf to crit sets. Even before patch 29 Khajiit was nowhere BiS, but a honorable mention in some DD builds. No real tank use and PVP limited to niche builds due to PVP ineffectiveness of crit damage. So why the nerf?

Koronach · February 2021

I guess people missed the 50 agi which is max stamina/fatigue , meaning they have a lot. They just don't have good natural sustain, hence the alchemy bonus. Same reason we have the potion passive on here. That 30 Endurance is also max hp as well as stam/fatigue regen, yeah looks pretty damn low for a tank. So yeah they are both magic and stamina, hence why Morrowind says male Argonians make the finest Nightblades. They should of been good at both mag/stam NB but noooooo they decided on going with the culture they are based on. They literally based them off Mayan, Aztec, and Inca priests and warriors totally tossing everything else out the window.

Mythreindeer · February 2021

Because kiting around in light armor is, well, sissy.