Proc sets aren't even balanced with each other

Xiomaro · November 2020

Let's put aside for a second the fact that proc sets in general are out of balance with stat sets. I think most people already agree on that. What I think is very strange is that proc sets aren't even balanced against each other.

The general balance seems to be tooltips of around 1400-1600 damage per second from most proc sets depending on the type of damage and proc condition. Unfathomable does 1605, Venomous Smite does 1494, Caluurion does 1420 etc. There are a few outliers such as Pillar of Nirn that does 2830 or Pestilent Host that can do 3120 but anyone who has used those sets knows they're pretty unreliable and they're not an issue. Clearly at least some thought has gone into how the proc is applied. Do you have to go close to apply it like Unfathomable? Okay, sure, do a little more damage. Is it AOE or burst damage? Okay, have a little less DPS. Do you not have complete control over who the proc hits (Red Mountain)? Fine, you can live on the upper end of the scale.

Then let's take a look at where things start to get a little questionable. Icy Conjurer does 2120 DPS. It can be applied from range, you can control who it goes on, it can be used with Malacath etc. It has a 10 second cooldown, it's a little higher than the general balance of procs but whatever. If Magicka was stronger in general it would probably be an issue but it's not. Then you look at Vateshran Destro... it's almost like a better version of Icy Conjurer. 2371 DPS but I guess you could argue that having to stay in range for the beam and having to slot an ability (albeit a very useful and free one) could factor into why it gets a higher damage budget.

Then you get to the WHAT!? territory. Unleashed Terror and Merciless Charge. Let's take a look at what these guys do:

Unleashed does 1973 DPS, Merciless Charge does 2006
Both of them can be affected by Malacath
Both of them can be used AOE via Stampede
Unleashed has a cooldown per target and you can get 100% uptime on it
Merciless charge has no cooldown and the ground AOE from Stampede continually reapplies it

A single target, non-burst proc like Icy Conjurer and Vateshran Destro makes sense to have a higher DPS budget. Honestly, I just mentioned them to build up to the elephants in the room.

What I don't understand is why Unleashed and Merciless Charge get such a high damage budget. They do 25% more damage than the average proc. It's like wearing Malacath without having to wear Malacath... oh and you can also wear Malacath. The proc is AOE, it has per-target or no cooldown. You could maybe make an argument for these guys doing 1600 DPS because you have to slot an ability to use them and you mostly have to get close to apply them. But when you combine that with the fact that they're AOE with negligible cooldowns, they should really be sitting at 1400 by ZOS' own balancing standards.

And to be clear, I use one or both of these sets in just about all my battleground builds on Stamsorc. But I'm under no illusions that these sets are in any way balanced. So as an Unleashed/vMA 2h (ab)user I say... please change Merciless Charge to ~7000 damage over 5 seconds and Unleashed to ~14000 over 10 seconds. It just makes sense.

katorga · December 2020

Umm. All proc sets do ~2K dps. There are a few outliers that are above or below that number, but not many.

Proc sets are probably the most consistently balanced things in the game. There is no point in nerfing particular sets. People will use whichever one is best. So either lower the baseline to 1K dps for all of them or leave them alone.

MurderMostFoul · December 2020

Here's an idea:

Lower proc set damage by 33% and make them able to crit again. This accomplishes:

1. Overall pvp nerf
2. Pve buff or nerf depending on build
3. Nerf to Malacath buff to proc sets

Qbiken · December 2020

The 3 biggest issues with the current version(s) of procsets are:

#1: Their proc-conditions are way too easy to meet.
If ZOS want proc-sets to remain as powerful as they´re, their proc-conditions needs to become much more difficult to achieve. Sets like Syvarra, Crimson, Unleashed Terror, Venomous Smite, Sheer Venom, Plague Slinger, Caluurion. Vateshran destro, Maelstrom 2h (just to name a few) are way too easy to proc. These sets should require some effort in order to proc, or force you to build around the set in order to utilize it.

Then we´ve one outlier, which is Azureblight. While requiring your entire setup to be build around the set, it overperforms when you do. My biggest issue with Azureblight isn´t really the fact its powerlevel itself, but the fact that other proc-sets that are considered DoT effects are allowed to give stacks towards the final explosion. This goes against ZOS logic that proc-sets shouldn´t contribute or proc other proc/procsets.

Compare to a set like Poisonous Serpent that requires you to first have a poison ability on the target and then you´ve to meet another condition (in this case a light/heavy attack) or Pillar of Nirn, which got one of the highest damage tooltips of all proc-sets, but have a build up time that allows for counterplay.

#2: Proc-sets are allowed to stack
And I´m not referring to the idea that a player can run multiple proc-sets and have them go off simultaneously, but the fact that an enemy target is allowed to have multiple stacks from similar sets. For example, it shouldn´t be possible to have multiple Unleashed Terror, sheer venom etc on the same target but it should be limited to 1 as long as the proc-set is considered a DoT effect. ZOS has proven themselves able to add certain immunities to negative effects (off-balance cooldown, previous major vulnerability immunity etc). Would like to see something similar when it comes to DoT based proc-sets so that 1 player can´t have more than 1 stack from a set at the time.

#3 The lack of counterplay
People who unironically tell you to slot purge can stop read now, because at this point it´s not a viable counterplay. This has to do with the fact that it´s so easy to instantly reapply the DoT/negative effect that just got cleansed. This point kinda goes hand in hand with my 2nd point.

People saying proc-sets are fine should seriously join some high MMR BG`s. When the only thing you face are 35-40k HP + proctanks where sets do 60-70% (if not more) of their damage output, there´s something seriously unbalanced that needs to be addressed. A statbased meta is 100x times healthier than what we currently have and we´re in much need for proc-sets to become subpar to our actual skills.

Edit: Forgot to add the elephant in the room which is malacath. This mythic should not buff damage that can´t critically strike to begin with and therefore should not buff proc-sets.

Firstmep · December 2020

katorga wrote: »

Umm. All proc sets do ~2K dps. There are a few outliers that are above or below that number, but not many.

Proc sets are probably the most consistently balanced things in the game. There is no point in nerfing particular sets. People will use whichever one is best. So either lower the baseline to 1K dps for all of them or leave them alone.

Problem is you look at merciless charge and it outperforms most 5pc dot procs by a huge margin due to no cooldown and the application from stampede aoe dot.
Vate destro is more complained about, but only ppl in the beam and the primary target are hit and it has a cooldown.
Both require a specific skill to proc.
I agree with xiomaro there are a lot of incostistencies, generally procs that have easy application, or low to no cooldown should do less dmg than the ones that do.
Pillar of nirn is almost never used over Syvarra, even tho it has twice the tooltip.
And for a good reason.

Xiomaro · December 2020

katorga wrote: »

Umm. All proc sets do ~2K dps. There are a few outliers that are above or below that number, but not many.

Proc sets are probably the most consistently balanced things in the game. There is no point in nerfing particular sets. People will use whichever one is best. So either lower the baseline to 1K dps for all of them or leave them alone.

This isn't actually true. There's huge disparity between different sets. Oblivion's Foe only does 1282 DPS, for example. Yes, you can apply it AOE so it makes sense to be lower but it's basically a ranged version of Unleashed Terror. Yet Unleashed Terror does 1973 DPS. Considering you usually need to get close to proc Unleashed Terror it makes sense to be a little higher than ranged procs but 25% or more above its competition and more than 50% more DPS than Oblivion's Foe? That's kinda nuts.

Waffennacht · December 2020

Xiomaro wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Umm. All proc sets do ~2K dps. There are a few outliers that are above or below that number, but not many.

Proc sets are probably the most consistently balanced things in the game. There is no point in nerfing particular sets. People will use whichever one is best. So either lower the baseline to 1K dps for all of them or leave them alone.

This isn't actually true. There's huge disparity between different sets. Oblivion's Foe only does 1282 DPS, for example. Yes, you can apply it AOE so it makes sense to be lower but it's basically a ranged version of Unleashed Terror. Yet Unleashed Terror does 1973 DPS. Considering you usually need to get close to proc Unleashed Terror it makes sense to be a little higher than ranged procs but 25% or more above its competition and more than 50% more DPS than Oblivion's Foe? That's kinda nuts.

Not to mention how and when the damage is applied.

A 30k tooltip may actually blow if the damage is parsed out too long.

An example is Way of Fire. In the long run it does deal slightly less dps than other procs, but it is delivered in burst form which can be more dangerous than a higher tooltip

taugrim · December 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

People saying proc-sets are fine should seriously join some high MMR BG`s. When the only thing you face are 35-40k HP + proctanks where sets do 60-70% (if not more) of their damage output, there´s something seriously unbalanced that needs to be addressed.

So I face players who I believe are high MMR in BGs regularly.

I don't see people with 35k HP, except for werewolf builds.

I do agree that against average players, high HP proctanks can dominate. But I simply don't see it in high MMR BGs.

Xiomaro · December 2020

taugrim wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

People saying proc-sets are fine should seriously join some high MMR BG`s. When the only thing you face are 35-40k HP + proctanks where sets do 60-70% (if not more) of their damage output, there´s something seriously unbalanced that needs to be addressed.

So I face players who I believe are high MMR in BGs regularly.

I don't see people with 35k HP, except for werewolf builds.

I do agree that against average players, high HP proctanks can dominate. But I simply don't see it in high MMR BGs.

This is down to a regional difference. From watching streams, I've seen most BG players have ~20k health on PC NA.

On PC EU, I would say the standard among decent players is 28k but there are a few who will go for up to 40k health.

Ethardt · December 2020

Crimson Stamdens/Werewolves everywhere.
Nobody dies in a PVP Zone.
Great designed.

#nerfHealthscaling
#nerfProcsets

taugrim · December 2020

Xiomaro wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

People saying proc-sets are fine should seriously join some high MMR BG`s. When the only thing you face are 35-40k HP + proctanks where sets do 60-70% (if not more) of their damage output, there´s something seriously unbalanced that needs to be addressed.

So I face players who I believe are high MMR in BGs regularly.

I don't see people with 35k HP, except for werewolf builds.

I do agree that against average players, high HP proctanks can dominate. But I simply don't see it in high MMR BGs.

This is down to a regional difference. From watching streams, I've seen most BG players have ~20k health on PC NA.

On PC EU, I would say the standard among decent players is 28k but there are a few who will go for up to 40k health.

Thanks for sharing this. I run 26k on my Stamden with food. That's more than most players I see in higher MMR on PC NA.

Qbiken · January 2021

Going to revive this thread to shine some light once again on two of the most overperforming sets in nocp atm, that's needs to be adressed next patch due to how they apply such an absurd amount of pressure with absolutely 0 effort.

The amount of Unleashed + Merciless Charge abusers are getting out of hand in BG's. Even with access to a purge there is no way to survive the moment more than one person with the same setup attacks you.

Merciless Charge needs to have a cooldown or I pray that stampede gets a 5 second cooldown so it can't be abused as a spammable. Also make it nor stackable with other merciless charge dots.

Unleashed either needs:
A ) Have it's cooldown not being per individual target but once used it can't activate again until off cooldown regardless of target.

B ) Not be able to stack with other unleashed terror (my preferable solution)

C ) Require a critical strike with a gapcloser so it can't be abused with malacath

D ) Have it's tooltip significantly reduced.

Preferably a combination of some the above mentioned suggestions. But these two sets are the primary source of why BG's right now are absolutely terrible. And the fact that multiple DoT procs are allowed to stack on the same target is beyond me.

A potential bug that I could mention is that the AoE part from stampede can for some reason proc both merciless charge and unleashed terror. Doesn't feel like that's inteded since it's not the "gapclosing part" @ZOS_GinaBruno

Hesperax79 · January 2021

About the unleashed+Maelstrom axe

Qbiken wrote: »

The 3 biggest issues with the current version(s) of procsets are:

#1: Their proc-conditions are way too easy to meet.

#2: Proc-sets are allowed to stack

#3 The lack of counterplay

#1 - Right, this two set have a good on-demand proc condition. This is an active issue, not a passive like Zaan or Calurion. IMHO this is a realy strong side of this two sets.

#2&#3
Not the Unleash nor Maelstrom is a 100% proc set. They make a DoT. This is an important difference, because there is a counterplay. You can dodge roll the stampede or you can purge the DoT with class ability (f.e: templar) or Support ability (Purge) So both of them have counterplay.

Joinovikova · January 2021

yes proc sets are not balanced...

WTF
8/10 players run Zaan + wrath of the elemets magica run it stamina run it gang builds run it heavy high health tank run it mist form exploiters run it. this game already lost one of the last interesting thing duversity since this combination is far far more stronger then everything else ..

Waffennacht · January 2021

From what I heard some proc sets will be adjusted but the theme of them isnt going away

Dracane · January 2021

I would like to see multiple instances of proc sets to become unstackable. For example I can only have one merciless charge etc. on me.

And an overall damage nerf. Even when they are made to scale with damage stats, they need to be weaker on average than now with an average damage build. By at least 20% in my opinion.

In the best case, this is what will happen with the coming update. It can not wait until the big, radiant chapter.

relentless_turnip · January 2021

Waffennacht wrote: »

From what I heard some proc sets will be adjusted but the theme of them isnt going away

What is your source? Only the developers know this as far as I'm aware. Both the stream team and class reps aren't informed at this point either.

IxskullzxI · January 2021

Waffennacht wrote: »

From what I heard some proc sets will be adjusted but the theme of them isnt going away

To be honest, I'm okay with that. Only thing I don't like about proc sets currently is that stacking them allows you to ignore your primary resource/damage stat and just stack straight health and still perform well. I definitely think they should remain viable though. Being able to round out a build with a proc set makes building a lot more interesting imo. After coming back to this game recently after over a year off I've realized how boring building was before. Much more interesting with procs, mythics and 3 piece jewelry/weapon sets

Waffennacht · January 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

From what I heard some proc sets will be adjusted but the theme of them isnt going away

What is your source? Only the developers know this as far as I'm aware. Both the stream team and class reps aren't informed at this point either.

Just people that seem to know what they're talking about. Not insider info, more like people with their fingers on the pulse of the game.

I wouldn't have mentioned it if I felt like these people were just taking wild stabs in the dark

Edit: cuz typing hard

wheem_ESO · January 2021

Dracane wrote: »

I would like to see multiple instances of proc sets to become unstackable. For example I can only have one merciless charge etc. on me.

The problems with that are that it won't do anything about direct damage procs, and that it will mostly nullify some builds basically at random. For example, if you're running BGs with a certain DOT set and get put with 1-2 other people running the same thing, your team is suddenly put at a huge disadvantage compared to the others.

My main gripe with DOT procs right now is how many effects can be applied with minimal GCD usage, and how a lot of them can be reapplied after cleanses with no additional input whatsoever. Trying to properly balance DOTs with cleanses is a tricky thing, but I don't think DOT-1 should automatically be reapplied with a fully fresh duration in <= 2 seconds just because the cleanse didn't also remove DOT-2, or because there was an AOE effect on the ground. Especially when some builds are basically using a gap closer that comes with said ground AOE as their spammable (which is another problem, IMO - if Degeneration is going to be essentially nothing more than a utility ability that provides a buff and horribly pathetic DOT, I don't see why a gap closer should be so very different).