What if werewolf had to commit?

Ryuvain · January 2021

Vampire always has a downside and upsides through passives that can't be unslotted or turned off. That's one thing I love about vampire, you can always feel it there.

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

Thoughts? Could fit into a rework if it ever happened.

Tsar_Gekkou · January 2021

People want to be able to toggle werewolf on and off instead of having a stupid timer but apparently that would be overpowered. Most werewolf players wouldn't mind being permanently stuck, but I can already hear pvp complaints about people always being ready in their werewolf form in Cyrodiil with no risk of it running out while moving from keep to keep.

ArchMikem · January 2021

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

Ryuvain · January 2021

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

People want to be able to toggle werewolf on and off instead of having a stupid timer but apparently that would be overpowered. Most werewolf players wouldn't mind being permanently stuck, but I can already hear pvp complaints about people always being ready in their werewolf form in Cyrodiil with no risk of it running out while moving from keep to keep.

There's already complaints even though werewolves normally can stay in form.

I would think staying in form would be nice if it has more downsides.

Starlock · January 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Ryuvain · January 2021

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Well, no difference except rp.

Starlock · January 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Well, no difference except rp.

For some, that's all that matters.

The thing about implementing werewolves in this game is that they can't add in some of the mechanics typical of other Elder Scrolls games in a multiplayer format. Well they could, but it would be a poor design decision. Players have no control over day/night cycle or progression of time during the game. Imagine for a moment if a player logged in one day to find their character forced into werewolf form and therefore unable to interact with towns for at least 24 hours? It just wouldn't work.

Ryuvain · January 2021

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Well, no difference except rp.

For some, that's all that matters.

The thing about implementing werewolves in this game is that they can't add in some of the mechanics typical of other Elder Scrolls games in a multiplayer format. Well they could, but it would be a poor design decision. Players have no control over day/night cycle or progression of time during the game. Imagine for a moment if a player logged in one day to find their character forced into werewolf form and therefore unable to interact with towns for at least 24 hours? It just wouldn't work.

Oh I understand that. I was thinking something tailored to the game like a rage meter or something that forces it. At least something to keep me from forgetting I'm actually a werewolf.

Starlock · January 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Well, no difference except rp.

For some, that's all that matters.

The thing about implementing werewolves in this game is that they can't add in some of the mechanics typical of other Elder Scrolls games in a multiplayer format. Well they could, but it would be a poor design decision. Players have no control over day/night cycle or progression of time during the game. Imagine for a moment if a player logged in one day to find their character forced into werewolf form and therefore unable to interact with towns for at least 24 hours? It just wouldn't work.

Oh I understand that. I was thinking something tailored to the game like a rage meter or something that forces it. At least something to keep me from forgetting I'm actually a werewolf.

There are a few passive effects if you keep the ultimate slotted all the time. I do on my one character who's a werewolf. But beyond that, yeah, there's not really any passives that impact things outside of werewolf form. I think that's an intentional design decision.

With better RPG writing, there could be more commentary on our characters being werewolves or werewolf dialogue options, but this just isn't that kind of RPG most of the time.

Ryuvain · January 2021

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

No real reason? Did you forget this game is an RPG?

Well, no difference except rp.

For some, that's all that matters.

The thing about implementing werewolves in this game is that they can't add in some of the mechanics typical of other Elder Scrolls games in a multiplayer format. Well they could, but it would be a poor design decision. Players have no control over day/night cycle or progression of time during the game. Imagine for a moment if a player logged in one day to find their character forced into werewolf form and therefore unable to interact with towns for at least 24 hours? It just wouldn't work.

Oh I understand that. I was thinking something tailored to the game like a rage meter or something that forces it. At least something to keep me from forgetting I'm actually a werewolf.

There are a few passive effects if you keep the ultimate slotted all the time. I do on my one character who's a werewolf. But beyond that, yeah, there's not really any passives that impact things outside of werewolf form. I think that's an intentional design decision.

With better RPG writing, there could be more commentary on our characters being werewolves or werewolf dialogue options, but this just isn't that kind of RPG most of the time.

I was excited for greymoor to have more dialogue options for vamp and werewolf but there is hardly any, werewolf had much less than even the scraps that vamp got.

itscompton · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

Truth, there really is none because the only built in weakness, taking extra poison damage, gets negated by the extra health recovery and resistance on top of a burst heal that can easily crit for 15-20K.
From my experience the only way to take advantage of that weakness is to fully build for poison damage using Swamp Raider + a second 5 piece damage set + Balorgh's. Use that setup to hit a WW with Toxic Barrage when you've got 500 ulti and unless the WW is a full tank build you'll almost certainly get the kill. However the same tactic will also kill any non-WW even easier so it's more of an OP setup than a WW weakness. But it is a way to kill otherwise unkillable WW's.

Sarannah · January 2021

Both vampire and werewolf should not have to 'commit'. Weaknesses yes, but no to vampire or werewolf dictating human form as well.

This is where the vampire remake made it's HUGE mistake.

Imagine if you became a member of the thievesguild or darkbrotherhood and would always have a bounty, no matter if you stole/killed recently. It doesn't make sense. You would never be able to enter town. This is how being a vampire feels at the moment, punished while not even playing like one. Werewolf should not get the same issue pushed upon itself.

PS: In my opinion werewolfs are way too strong at the moment, and they should get nerfed.

Silaf · January 2021

It would be fun to have the transformation lasting an unknown amount of time when you use it. And in that timeframe guards will attack you and you can't open chests.

At the momen werewolves are way too overpowered in pvp a downside is needed.

Vevvev · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

25% extra poison damage when in werewolf form.

20% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage when in werewolf form.

Danikat · January 2021

It was the same in Skyrim, the only constant effects of being a werewolf were being unable to get the well rested bonus and being immune to disease, anything else only came into play if you decided to transform. Meanwhile vampires had a long list of permanent effects, both positive and negative.

It was a bit different in Morrowind and Daggerfall, where werewolves transformed automatically at night, but as someone already said it wouldn't be practical to do that in a game where you can't wait, sleep or otherwise skip the time when you can't enter towns. But even then during the day you were back to normal with no on-going effects.

It wouldn't surprise me if the devs don't intended werewolves and vampires to be virtually identical transformations with matching positives and negatives, and actually intend one to be a constant effect and one to only help or hinder you when you activate it.

ArchMikem · January 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

25% extra poison damage when in werewolf form.

20% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage when in werewolf form.

Thats kinda funny. Being a glass cannon nightblade using Dawnbreaker, Werewolves keep shrugging me off most the time.

Vevvev · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

25% extra poison damage when in werewolf form.

20% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage when in werewolf form.

Thats kinda funny. Being a glass cannon nightblade using Dawnbreaker, Werewolves keep shrugging me off most the time.

As a vampire with the same weakness I learned that Dawnbreaker of Smiting hurt more. Even then I didn't really die to it directly, but indirectly. One of those abilities you line up with a burst otherwise you waste it.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

- No access to other skills (only WW skills, which limits your toolkit).
- ^ No access to purge or CC immunity ability.
- Very expensive magicka heal (that requires specializing into "building" for WW - in other words you have to "hybridize" your build).
- No ultimate (WW is a sub-class, that you gain access to via ulti button).
- Weapon passives are disabled in WW form.
- Lack of "most" class passives, guild passives, etc. in WW form (as almost all of those require to have a specific skill slotted or deal damage with specific skill etc).
- They take more poison damage and take more dmg from fighters guild.

In general, WW is less flexible than Vamp, but can work well when you build for it & you have some experience. WW is "on" or "off", while Vamps are always "on", but you can decide at what stage you are, and you also have a temporary transformation ulti.

Personally I think that current WW is Ok-ish and should stay as it is for the most part.

^ I am looking at this from perspective of previous "versions" of WW in ESO. Those changed over time. At some point they were way stronger than now, and at some point the were weaker and even an "RP meme" at some point.
If something I would address Proc sets 1st as those are the real problem. Those enable tanky builds to have way more dmg, WW itself does not do that.

As for the vamps - I think they should be buffed. I dont know in what way though...

Chrysa1is · January 2021

WW light and heavy attacks are slow and clunky now and it feels awful

ccfeeling · January 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

25% extra poison damage when in werewolf form.

20% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage when in werewolf form.

Not a problem to WW, they are super tanky.

Zos many consider to nerf them when a day 10 WW in BG.

rpa · January 2021

Perma WW form would be fine. Only it's sooooo buggy, happens to be a crime and locks player out of non-WW abilities.

craybest · January 2021

permament WW? [snip]
there's a reason many of us spend 15 mins or more in the character creator, and it's not to have it permanently overriden with an ugly WW skin.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Ryuvain · January 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

Both vampire and werewolf should not have to 'commit'. Weaknesses yes, but no to vampire or werewolf dictating human form as well.

This is where the vampire remake made it's HUGE mistake.

Imagine if you became a member of the thievesguild or darkbrotherhood and would always have a bounty, no matter if you stole/killed recently. It doesn't make sense. You would never be able to enter town. This is how being a vampire feels at the moment, punished while not even playing like one. Werewolf should not get the same issue pushed upon itself.

PS: In my opinion werewolfs are way too strong at the moment, and they should get nerfed.

So do you think it's fine to be a werewolf and be able to play exactly the same as a mortal? There's no reason to be normal atm.

notyuu · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

move set limited to 4 moderately expensive stam skills
very expensive magicka heal
no purge ability
increased damage from poison by 25%
melee only
20% increased damage from fg abilities
no ultimate
primary means of attack are easily avoided [if you know how they work]
transformation is expensive ult wise
if strong in ww form then human form is comically weak
needs to feed on corpses or almost constantly attack to maintain wolf form, leaving them vulnerable to kiting

and for those of you that go "but they melt me"

how to kill a ww

Apply dots
apply debuffs
realize their light attack has a hit reg box like jabs, and avoid them
hit their ass
laugh as they either run from you or melt

SteveCampsOut · January 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Vampire always has a downside and upsides through passives that can't be unslotted or turned off. That's one thing I love about vampire, you can always feel it there.

Currently there isn't really a choice between mortal and werewolf is there? There's no real reason to say no. You can just unslot and play a mortal whenever.

Thoughts? Could fit into a rework if it ever happened.

Downside should be that they can only use their WW Morph during a full moon! PERIOD!

edges_endgame · January 2021

Well if a WW has to commit... There are scrolls of Mara ingame...

Sarannah · January 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Both vampire and werewolf should not have to 'commit'. Weaknesses yes, but no to vampire or werewolf dictating human form as well.

This is where the vampire remake made it's HUGE mistake.

Imagine if you became a member of the thievesguild or darkbrotherhood and would always have a bounty, no matter if you stole/killed recently. It doesn't make sense. You would never be able to enter town. This is how being a vampire feels at the moment, punished while not even playing like one. Werewolf should not get the same issue pushed upon itself.

PS: In my opinion werewolfs are way too strong at the moment, and they should get nerfed.

So do you think it's fine to be a werewolf and be able to play exactly the same as a mortal? There's no reason to be normal atm.

Yes! Just because you have access to one part of the game, should not exclude you from or hinder you in another.
Like I mentioned in my example about the Thieves guild and Dark brotherhood, once a thief/killed always a thief/killer. That type of stuff does not work in an MMO. In MMO's we should be able to play parts of the game, while at the same time we do not use other different parts of the game.

You can also turn that around: You are a werewolf, you now 100% have to use werewolf form all the time... forcing stuff like that doesn't work in MMO's. This is why the vampire re-make affecting human skills/form is just silly(for lack of a better word).

MMO's are meant to be played for longer time periods. When today I may join a dungeon, tomorrow I may like a BG. Today I may love running around as a wolf, tomorrow I may not. The longer term is more important in this case, which is to allow access, while not dealing punishments for when one does not want to play a certain way right now.

ccfeeling · January 2021

notyuu wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

move set limited to 4 moderately expensive stam skills

very expensive magicka heal

no purge ability

increased damage from poison by 25%

melee only

20% increased damage from fg abilities

no ultimate

primary means of attack are easily avoided [if you know how they work]

transformation is expensive ult wise

if strong in ww form then human form is comically weak

needs to feed on corpses or almost constantly attack to maintain wolf form, leaving them vulnerable to kiting

and for those of you that go "but they melt me"

how to kill a ww
Apply dots

apply debuffs

realize their light attack has a hit reg box like jabs, and avoid them

hit their ass

laugh as they either run from you or melt

Cool and thx.
I will be WW killer.

Alessia, Crimson, Malacath's WW, GL

TX12001rwb17_ESO · January 2021

Maybe make the poison weakness effect non-werewolf form as well, they should also take extra damage from silver while not transformed and there you go.

dinokstrunz · January 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

Whats the downside to a Werewolf anyway? They're DDs and Tanks at the same time.

Have you played PvP? With the right setup any class and tank and deal damage at the same time, we're in the midst of one of the most tankiest metas in the games lifespan thanks to overperforming proc sets and defensive sets.

Ryuvain · January 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Both vampire and werewolf should not have to 'commit'. Weaknesses yes, but no to vampire or werewolf dictating human form as well.

This is where the vampire remake made it's HUGE mistake.

Imagine if you became a member of the thievesguild or darkbrotherhood and would always have a bounty, no matter if you stole/killed recently. It doesn't make sense. You would never be able to enter town. This is how being a vampire feels at the moment, punished while not even playing like one. Werewolf should not get the same issue pushed upon itself.

PS: In my opinion werewolfs are way too strong at the moment, and they should get nerfed.

So do you think it's fine to be a werewolf and be able to play exactly the same as a mortal? There's no reason to be normal atm.

Yes! Just because you have access to one part of the game, should not exclude you from or hinder you in another.
Like I mentioned in my example about the Thieves guild and Dark brotherhood, once a thief/killed always a thief/killer. That type of stuff does not work in an MMO. In MMO's we should be able to play parts of the game, while at the same time we do not use other different parts of the game.

You can also turn that around: You are a werewolf, you now 100% have to use werewolf form all the time... forcing stuff like that doesn't work in MMO's. This is why the vampire re-make affecting human skills/form is just silly(for lack of a better word).

MMO's are meant to be played for longer time periods. When today I may join a dungeon, tomorrow I may like a BG. Today I may love running around as a wolf, tomorrow I may not. The longer term is more important in this case, which is to allow access, while not dealing punishments for when one does not want to play a certain way right now.

You didn't answer the part about mortals. What's a good reason to stay normal rather than be a werewolf? None atm.