Story Mode Dungeons

Skorro · January 2021

I would definitely appreciate something like a solo mode for trials, it would be cool.

You can check out this thread for some dungeon stories: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549462/eso-storytime-dungeons/p1

Anotherone773 · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Threads that everyone agree with die quickly. while those that stay on the frontpage are the ones that are controversial. the only exception are threads that people dont want to let go of, like the bosmer passives, i think they did great job keeping that one up as long as they could.

That is not true. There has been many people that disagreed with story mode and the thread still died. Threads that don't have a lot of support( used in this case to mean people commenting not for/against) to keep them alive die quickly. IE: not a lot of people interested in that feature. However, threads on fixing the dungeon issue between groups of people may be active for a week or weeks as people debate back and forth and new people see it on the front page and chime in.

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

3 speed runners losing 5 minutes each by wasting for total of 15 minutes. or 1 slow pacer losing 5 minutes by group completing dungeon real quick. time out of the dungeon, obviously not calculated because:

if you calculated it on time spent to achieve the desired goal when they first entered the dungeon, the quester always loses because he has to run the dungeon at least twice plus out of dungeon time. So you conveniently ignored the goal of each of the two sides in your rebuttal. Even though the focus of your example, which i quoted, included "aims" IE: goals here:

1 person gets their aim, you, while the 3 speedruners, lost half their aim each, of running as fast as they can for crystals, ending up in a lost 1.5 of a person's aim(time(?)) worth.

So the only way your rebuttal argument works is if:
1) We ignore that the quester has to run the dungeon at least one more time
2) We ignore the goal you set in your original scenario.
3) We live by Vulcan philosophy, of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one( they don't). For this one the benefit of slowing down a little bit would greatly improve the experience for the quester and have very little impact on the runners. However speeding though the dungeon has a significant impact on the quester as all the time he spent queuing for and doing the dungeon this time has been wasted. You also can't combine the total benefit of the questers because they dont get a group benefit. They each only benefit 5 minutes. One runner does not extra benefit from the other two's 5 minutes.

2. each group member can slot sword and board, pierce armor, self heal, chains, and tank the dungeon, which mean 2 minutes queue top. not 10-20 minutes. and if they dont enjoy tanking, they can slot a resto staff, deal damage while throwing a heal occasionally. for a 5 minutes queue.

So your "solution", which does not solve the original problem, is to make another problem more persistent? Faking through a dungeon, or even worse changing their character just to accommodate someone that wont slow down a little bit.

They can do that quest only 18 times (even more if they create more characters). they can also abandon the quest at the end, and re-run it. additionally he can do other 50+ quests per zone. while the speedrunner can do only random normals for fast crystals.

This entire point shows the selfishness of the speed runners. They do the easiest dungeons to get the most crystals in the fastest time despite people who are trying to learn dungeons are trying to play through it.

everything else you typed is highly biased (and generally, not even true).

What i typed is a general observation based on experience in this game and many others, but for this exact topic mostly this one, because dungeons are not usually burned through in other games like here. Your perspective though keeps focusing on that reward seeking players must always come first( even though it ruins the play for the fun group as well). It is this view that " i must have my reward therefore my needs are more important than yours" from this group that cause the issues.

additionally, you assumed that the slow pacer queued as dd. which is by itself selfish.

I didnt assume that in my original no. But i did in your scenario because an overwhelming majority of quest runners will play as DPS as many will be new and there are far more DPS in general than heals and tanks combined. So the chances of them being DPS is significantly higher than being either of the other two. So i am going to of course argue the rule not the exception. If healers were the most likely, i would argue their queue time. It is easy to rebut an exception but not so easy to rebut the rule.

and ye. i like to be the devil advocate when people are overly toxic towards a crowd that doesn't deserve it. especially when both sides can be just as toxic, reference to a slow pacer being toxic:

I was not being toxic, i was giving a fair assessment. Reward driven people tend to have at least some of the qualities i said that are dominate. It has to do with psychology, but that is not an appropriate discussion for here. I have no ill will towards reward driven people. I understand their motives and the way they think( also for reasons i wont go into). I made this quite clear in my post that they are not the demons they may seem like when i list traits and behavior common to the group.

My solution, which you never actually commented on, was not to put fun driven before reward driven or vice versa because both groups are entitled to get the same level of enjoyment out of the game. They just can't do it together as i clearly stated. So it would be best for both groups enjoyment if they ran content separate and understand that if they venture in the other groups queue they should expect to run like that group. Not everyone wants to run for rewards all the time and vice versa. So my solution fits everyone and hurts no one...which is why you ignored it.

Edit: typos

WiseSky · January 2021

It is totally possible to follow the story of the dungeon.

I only did random Dungeon Finder for the dungeons I already had done in Story mode With a Guild dedicated for story mode.

Later I learned I can solo the dungeons and if in trouble I just call one of my guild mates for a boss.

I am CP 810 and only done 7 dungeons.

I only do the Dungeons If I find them on the open World

AlnilamE · January 2021

I feel like, if the people who want a story mode for dungeons all got together in a guild, they could run them at whatever pace they like and enjoy the story.

In my guild, sometimes we run dungeons quickly because they are the pledge, and sometimes we run them slowly because one or more of us needs the quest or wants to get all the readable texts and such.

It works out well.

Iccotak · January 2021

Or just make the story repeatable (with no extra reward for completing it) so then a person can get a group together to do the story in case they missed it the first time. Simple quality of life update.

If there was a solo mode implemented for dungeons then a fair trade would be a hard and/or group mode be made for the Main Story Bosses.

Tornaad · January 2021

idk wrote: »

Since Zos started weaving the storyline each year through the dungeons I have suggested a solo mode was very much appropriate.

That is the only justification needed. If nothing else but for the dungeons, Zos has adding where the story directly connects to the yearlong story.

Not sure why OP suggests the stories for the dungeons have been nerfed as they seem to remain unchanged. Even the specific dungeon OP mentions are still the same story today as it was in April 2014. The only thing that has changed is Zos has nerfed the challenge (not the story) and power creep has been huge. However, OP is advocating a story mode which would be an easier mode that can be soloed. There is no reason to ask for an easier mode that requires a group because we already have that.

To the points made.

1. Of course. But Zos not seen it as something they want to do.
2. Have no idea what the "old stories" are. Evey dungeon has a story so there are old stories to bring back.
3. I expect there would be a basic achievement for clearing it in the most basic mode though that should be granted to anyone who clears it at any difficulty level. There is no need, or reason, for achievements beyond that.
4. Firm no to extra items into story mode as it should only meet the most basic need for seeing the story. The more difficult the mode the more that should come with it. Not the other way around.
5. Again, absolutely not. This is just a simple story mode and should have not have added rewards.
6. Again, a firm no as it goes against the design of the antiquities system. I am not aware of a single lead that requires a specific difficulty for a dungeon.
7. Again, no. The story mode of a dungeon should be the same story or else it defeats the purpose. As such there should not be any additions to the lore via story mode.
8. No point to knowledge of lore required to complete an arena. The requirements would be posted on a website for us to get the answers making it rather pointless.

Especially with the dungeons being part of the storyline for the year, I really want this. I seriously thought about starting guild called "Story Mode Dungeons" with the express purpose of organizing groups to run dungeons at a pace that will allow for everyone to experience the story.

amm7sb14_ESO · January 2021

I'm pretty much of the mind that dungeons and trials should have absolutely 0 story to them period. Group gameplay is not conducive to stories.

amm7sb14_ESO · January 2021

Glurin wrote: »

My default position on dungeons in MMOs is "What story?". Has been for years. There's just no possible way to understand what's going on unless you can solo it because you're probably going to have a hard time finding a group that will actually take the time to read the quest text.

There was a time in MMO history when the natural flow and difficulty of a dungeon would slow people down enough that you could at least get some idea of what's supposed to be going on. Now though it's as if the RPG part of MMORPG just doesn't even register with people. It's like everyone has decided that MMOs should be Diablo clones, where the game is simply about slaughtering as many enemies as fast as possible with godlike characters.

And this is pretty much why I don't care for MMO's anymore.

I have nothing against Diablo, I quite like it actually. And I even enjoy ESO as well, but the truth is, I am only here for the IP. And this game has literally none of the gameplay design that makes me love the IP in the first place. But the truth is, if this game wasn't under the Elder Scrolls IP, I wouldn't be here, and never would have been.

Anotherone773 · January 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm pretty much of the mind that dungeons and trials should have absolutely 0 story to them period. Group gameplay is not conducive to stories.

I would very much agree with this. If the need to have a quest in such instances make it something simple like a repeatable. Some of the dungeon stories actually have scenes you have to watch before you move on, so you couldnt even speed through it if you wanted too. You are forced to wait.

Miragent · January 2021

The narrative on this topic is always "soloers vs group". But what about those who love both modes? What about those who love to enjoy stories, lore, reading, voice acting, exploration as well as love to focus on mechanics with a group of friends on voice chat? Both modes are awesome, but they're both pretty much mutually exclusive. I can't fully appreciate superb voice acting while listening to voices of my friends, beloved as they are. I can't read walls of awesome text even if the rest of us do the same because we all have different reading speed, and reading is a solo activity.

I get it, the devs have this idea of dungeoneers as a group of Undaunted who go together for a glorious adventure, explore, discover, fight, forge camaradery, unravel history, spin stories. It's a beautiful concept, but it doesn't work or works partly - only as far as beating the mechanics go. In reality, we either do most of those things alone or we run dungeons for a specific purpose - pledges, gear, achievements, rewards - the MMO stuff, and there's nothing glorious about it except conquering high difficulty content, but, as I mentioned, that excludes anything story related.

ZOS, please give me a chance to take my time to appreciate all the artistic work that went into creating those dungeons. I would run and/or farm them like a proper MMO player anyway, it's not like one mode would cancel out the other for good (now it does, since the quest can't even be repeated). Right now, all that artistic side of the content is wasted. People who would appreciate it the most, can't do it. Either because they don't/can't do group content or they do group content but there's no way to truly take everything in. The cake is there, but it can't be eaten.

Dungeon stories are right behind that door that's blocked by jubilee cake - the gameplay.

tomofhyrule · January 2021

I'd like to be able to experience the story at my own pace without having to bother other people. I pretty much have two modes - play the game as an Elder Scrolls game, or play as a teammate.

Now that I've had practice, it's actually fun to go back and solo the earlier ones on normal. Even though I main a tank with about 10k DPS, basegame normals aren't really a problem. There are only two issues:

Once the story quest has been done, it's over. You can't get that dialogue again. I'd love if the dungeon quests went repeatable after you did it once (white quest marker to blue), where the repeatable version has no rewards - it only allows you to see the dialogue ZOS paid the voice actors to do, and also see the things that will be affected by questing (like areas in Volenfell that will be an ambush for quests and empty if nobody's on the quest)
Some dungeons require a second player for mechanics. Many of the basegame 2 dungeons have pin mechanics that require a second person to free you before you get one-shot, or things like the Direfrost/ICP gate mechanics with two simultaneous triggers. Just make it so those can be done by a solo player in normal mode (keep it as is in vet) for the story.

Especially with the dungeons tying into the overarching story, it's bad to be unable to really tie everything together. Just fiddling with the normal modes - not necessarily making it easier, just making it soloable - would allow people to experience the story and see how everything fits, beyond just knowing one or two memetic lines but having no other idea about the story. Let's face it, all most people know of something like WGT is "THE SCROLL IS MINE! KILL THEM ALL!" and not really who she even is.

zvavi · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Threads that everyone agree with die quickly. while those that stay on the frontpage are the ones that are controversial. the only exception are threads that people dont want to let go of, like the bosmer passives, i think they did great job keeping that one up as long as they could.

That is not true. There has been many people that disagreed with story mode and the thread still died. Threads that don't have a lot of support( used in this case to mean people commenting not for/against) to keep them alive die quickly. IE: not a lot of people interested in that feature. However, threads on fixing the dungeon issue between groups of people may be active for a week or weeks as people debate back and forth and new people see it on the front page and chime in.

refer to this thread. and the other thread i linked earlier. and show me the many that disagreed.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

no. that is an opinion. not a fact.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

3 speed runners losing 5 minutes each by wasting for total of 15 minutes. or 1 slow pacer losing 5 minutes by group completing dungeon real quick. time out of the dungeon, obviously not calculated because:

if you calculated it on time spent to achieve the desired goal when they first entered the dungeon, the quester always loses because he has to run the dungeon at least twice plus out of dungeon time. So you conveniently ignored the goal of each of the two sides in your rebuttal. Even though the focus of your example, which i quoted, included "aims" IE: goals here:

1 person gets their aim, you, while the 3 speedruners, lost half their aim each, of running as fast as they can for crystals, ending up in a lost 1.5 of a person's aim(time(?)) worth.

So the only way your rebuttal argument works is if:
1) We ignore that the quester has to run the dungeon at least one more time
2) We ignore the goal you set in your original scenario.
3) We live by Vulcan philosophy, of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one( they don't). For this one the benefit of slowing down a little bit would greatly improve the experience for the quester and have very little impact on the runners. However speeding though the dungeon has a significant impact on the quester as all the time he spent queuing for and doing the dungeon this time has been wasted. You also can't combine the total benefit of the questers because they dont get a group benefit. They each only benefit 5 minutes. One runner does not extra benefit from the other two's 5 minutes.

1. no, we are not, because it has nothing to do with time wasted for each person.
2. no. we are not, because it has nothing to do with time wasted for each person.
3. if there are 1000 people saving five minutes, it is more important than 1 losing 5... it is simple logic. also u have typos, u meant total benefit of "questers" instead of "speeders". additionally the quester can exit the dungeon after 1 minute when he notices what is going on, and lose even less time.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

4. each group member can slot sword and board, pierce armor, self heal, chains, and tank the dungeon, which mean 2 minutes queue top. not 10-20 minutes. and if they dont enjoy tanking, they can slot a resto staff, deal damage while throwing a heal occasionally. for a 5 minutes queue.

So your "solution", which does not solve the original problem, is to make another problem more persistent? Faking through a dungeon, or even worse changing their character just to accommodate someone that wont slow down a little bit.

They can do that quest only 18 times (even more if they create more characters). they can also abandon the quest at the end, and re-run it. additionally he can do other 50+ quests per zone. while the speedrunner can do only random normals for fast crystals.

This entire point shows the selfishness of the speed runners. They do the easiest dungeons to get the most crystals in the fastest time despite people who are trying to learn dungeons are trying to play through it.

u could argue that it shows the selfishness of the questers (your term, not mine) to go into a place that gives rewards for the quest instead of doing overland solo quests. ps. normal dungeons teach u nothing.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

everything else you typed is highly biased (and generally, not even true).

What i typed in a general observation based on experience in this game and many others, but for this exact mostly this one, because dungeons are not usually burned through in other games like here. Your perspective though keeps focusing on reward seeking players must always come first( even though it ruins the play for the fun group as well). It is this view that " i must have reward therefore my needs are more important than yours" from this group cause the issues.

no. i said that in a group of 3 speeders, and one questers, the quester should be ready to yield. i did not say anything about any other composition, and never did.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

additionally, you assumed that the slow pacer queued as dd. which is by itself selfish.

I didnt assume that in my original no. But i did in your scenario because an overwhelming majority of quest runners will play as DPS as many will be new and there are far more DPS in general than heals and tanks combined. So the chances of them being DPS is significantly higher than being either of the other two. So i am going to of course argue the rule not the exception. If healers were the most likely, i would argue their key time. It is easy to rebut an exception but not so easy to rebut the rule.

"because an overwhelming majority of quest runners will play as DPS" yes. selfish. i mostly distribute my tanking and dding time in pugs equally.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

and ye. i like to be the devil advocate when people are overly toxic towards a crowd that doesn't deserve it. especially when both sides can be just as toxic, reference to a slow pacer being toxic:

I was not being toxic, i was given a fair assessment. Reward driven people tend to have at least some of the qualities i said. It has to do with psychology, but that is not an appropriate discussion for here. I have no ill will towards reward driven people. I understand their motives and the way they think( also for reasons i wont go into). I made this quite clear in my post that they are not the demons they may seem like when i list traits and behavior common to the group.

no. using an opinion to put negative traits to a specific crowd, regardless of it being right or wrong, is toxic. if u didnt like the previous example, here are more toxic comment examples:

Your brain cant process how you are being selfish

the evil demons

Ironically this same group throws an absolute fit

Anotherone773 wrote: »

My solution, which you never actually commented on, was not to put fun driven before reward driven or vice versa because both groups are entitled to get the same level of enjoyment out of the game. They just can't do it together as i clearly stated. So it would be best for both groups enjoyment if they ran content separate and understand that if they venture in the other groups queue they should expect to run like that group. Not everyone wants to run for rewards all the time and vice versa. So my solution fits everyone and hurts no one...which is why you ignored it.

of course i didnt comment on it, your whole premise is wrong, you cant put people in 2 groups for 2 reasons:

1. longer queue times, hitting "both" groups.
2. you cant put people in one group or another. there is a whole spectrum. more than that. where will you put people that enjoy the combat? where will you put people that like to ghost run through dungeons? where will you put people that want to hear the whole dialogs? where will you put people that will take 5 minutes break every boss? there are many many, many, different reasons to go to a dungeon, with a specific playstyle in mind. you cant put it in 2 groups.

a real solution would be:
1. add solo reward-less (with standard quest rewards, heck, even have the skill point) story mode.
2. lower crystals from random normal to 5. if it was dlc dungeon 7. random vet 10. if it gave a dlc then 15.
3. option to resign from dlc/non dlc when doing a random.
4. add 3 crystals for every worldboss/delve daily.
5. add 2 crystal for every non daily quest completed.

because the problem is not people that like to run through stuff faster, but that currently people abuse it, running it on 18 characters a day for the reward (which is the main source of the rush, dont hate the player, hate the game)

ps. before you keep assuming stuff about me, for your knowledge, since the new 10 crystals started dropping, i run 2 random dungeons exactly. as a pure tank. 3 group buff sets. on vet. had 30% of dmg. and stopped doing that after those 2. normals bore me. i dont do them. i always wait when asked. today i run scale caller peak on vet with a guildy magplar with dual wield. last time i was boss skipping in a dungeon, it was direfrost keep, during the event, when the pugs i got in with, asked for the run to be as quick as possible(for masks).

Anotherone773 · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

refer to this thread. and the other thread i linked earlier. and show me the many that disagreed.

Several that disagreed in this thread alone.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

no. that is an opinion. not a fact.

Rather than backtrack this to show you where its not true ill instead focus on

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

which was your reply to me "saying nothing about speed runners".

In this you focused on that paragraph. the one under it i focused on fun players( those who play for fun rather than rewards). It is the paragraph under this one in which i said:

Not all reward driven players are the evil demons it seem i am describing them as and not all fun driven players are the happy hippies, i seem to describe them as.

The bolded parts are the key to

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

It is true i was talking about a majority which i stated here. I know it is true because i am the author of that sentence and can verify both that is what was said and what i meant. The second part of that quote is also true because i am the author of that as well. This particular part you quoted:

Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc

i was clarifying for you that is what i mean by rewards is not limited to the drops or RGF bonuses. Everything i said in what you quoted is true, you just misinterpreted it.

no. i said that in a group of 3 speeders, and one questers, the quester should be ready to yield. i did not say anything about any other composition, and never did.

I don't understand why you keep calling people selfish for playing DPS? I never said anything about another scenario either so i don't know what you are on about. I have only talked about your scenario.

no. i said that in a group of 3 speeders, and one questers, the quester should be ready to yield. i did not say anything about any other composition, and never did.

I never did either so i don't know what you are on about. I have only talked about your scenario.

no. using an opinion to put negative traits to a specific crowd, regardless of it being right or wrong, is toxic. if u didnt like the previous example, here are more toxic comment examples:

I don't think you understand what toxic means. Some definitions for you:
"TOXIC means Bad Attitude and Behavior in an online gaming context. It is not uncommon for a player to feel aggrieved in some way. ... Whatever the reason, a player who is constantly complaining, tutting, or swearing is described as TOXIC."

and

"Toxic is a choice The type of toxic behavior in each game can be vary, but generally, it's a social interaction that includes cyber-bullying, disturbing other players, acting nosy, cheating"

and

"a toxic player is someone who constantly creates a bad atmosphere which interferes with your gaming experience."

I can find hundreds of definitions of toxic in gaming that basically all say the same thing. The traits i listed are negative yes but i did not say them in a derogatory or malicious way. I also stated, which you quoted, that they are not the demons that it may seem that i am making them out to be. I also stated further down that i understand why reward players do what they do and i have no ill will towards them or how they want to play the game. The problem , as i mentioned are the two groups of people are not compatible in group content. Fun players are a drag to reward players and reward players make dungeons unpleasant. I also said that reward players tend to produce most of the toxicity in dungeon running which is true. I also didn't single out any player and when i speak of "you" i mean in the general sense unless im speaking of something you say. I normally state this but sometimes i forget.

You cannot have a healthy debate about anything if no one is ever allowed to say anything bad about it. As i said earlier their are psychological reasons( also not bad, i am not calling any one mentally ill, crazy, etc.) why many of those traits are dominate in reward runners. I am not going into that. But it is in the same realm of gambling addiction and has in part to do with the reward center's in our brain. It is also perfectly fine they want to play the game that way. My only problem is when they become toxic and/or ruin it for other players because they think they supersede those players in rights.

I also don't think LFG normals is the correct place for crystals runners. I understand why they run those and ZOS did make an already bad problem in this game much much worse by making the changes they did here. That is what we are hoping to fix so everyone can enjoy dungeons without having to play the other peoples way. I just strongly disagree that story mode is the way to do that as it only caters to a small portion of the player base and ignores a large majority.

1. longer queue times, hitting "both" groups.

This is literally the only defense anyone can ever manage. One of the reasons dungeons are not as popular in this game is because of the toxic players, the pressure to be good before you enter, and the incompatibility of two different groups make them unpleasant for everyone.

The advanced group would be able to queue as 2 of 3 roles. So when it sorts people into groups it will check to see who can fulfill each role but each person can fill two roles. So you are no longer stuck with say 80 DPS,15 healers, and 5 tanks out of 100 in queue for dungeons. Basically the role restriction is almost completely lifted. If you think you can tank on your DPS and want to slot inner fire and your friend thinks he can heal well enough to heal the average group and queues as heals and tank. You two just covered all 3 roles by yourself. Currently you would both be consider fake tank/heals. Under the new system a person joining your advanced group would have to understand that they have to fend for themselves more. This group is for advanced players who can handle themselves in these dungeons with little assistance.

The advanced group would be a magical experience for reward runners because queues would be nearly instant, the players running the dungeon would understand that group support may not be as strong as the casual queue, and they don't have to deal with questers, people learning mechanics, lowbies trying to run the dungeons and all the stuff that slows them down. We can even set a min level before you can queue for advanced.

2. you cant put people in one group or another. there is a whole spectrum. more than that. where will you put people that enjoy the combat? where will you put people that like to ghost run through dungeons? where will you put people that want to hear the whole dialogs? where will you put people that will take 5 minutes break every boss? there are many many, many, different reasons to go to a dungeon, with a specific playstyle in mind. you cant put it in 2 groups.

We have one group now so this reason doesnt even make sense. But i can tell from experience what is important to both groups, playing heals allows you to spend a lot of time observing in this game.

Reward players, those that would be in the advanced group, generally have the same goals in mind. It doesn't matter why they want to blow through the dungeon, the fact they all want to go at a quick pace means that the friction normally present in dungeons will be greatly reduced in their groups. You will always have ass holes to deal with in any group but the people the advanced queue would apply too would all have the same general goals.

One reason i can tell you are not someone that plays for fun is because you don't think like a fun player. What you think is issue that would cause the need to have multiple queues for the casual group doesn't bother the people who would be in the casual group with the small exception of new players that are reward driven, but those guys typically arent that bad because they are still learning and often trying to figure things out themselves.

All the other types of runners who would be casual players actually get along and do fine together. So like with the advanced group the friction would be minimal. Also because this is a more pleasant experience i know loads of people who would do more dungeons. I know quite a few people that do fewer dungeons or none at all because of how they are now. I also do a lot fewer myself. I normally would run 5-10 dungeons a week. I probably run 5 a month. I also almost always play heals and tanks in dungeons so that takes a critical role out of the queue.

The other think i think you don't understand is that i am not sorting people into groups, ZOS isn't sorting them into groups. People are sorting themselves into groups. Do want to casually run a dungeon today? Queue in the casual queue. Just want to grind xp or collect rewards? Queue in the advanced queue. BUT...regardless of which queue you queue in, expect to run the dungeon like that queue and not " however you want". Dont be trying to get the advanced queue to stop for quests and don't be trying to do a speed run on the casual queue.

On a last note, fun players are more patient in general, so more tolerant of longer queues, especially if improves the experience in the dungeon quite a bit. The casual queue would also have all the newbies which will keep things moving.

WiseSky · January 2021

You two need a book publishing contract soon

Hotdog_23 · January 2021

Know ZOS has said no to story mode so far but giving your customers what they are asking for is good business practice.

No skill point for completing quest or gear drops outside of white vanilla items.

Let your player’s experience the story and take in the environments you created in dungeons and trials. A story mode we could enjoy repeatedly if we wish.

With the chapters now a yearlong story as time goes on it will be even harder for new players to experience the older year long stories completely due to how hard it will be to find a group of likeminded individuals who like you take the time to experience the dungeons parts of the story. That is without feeling rushed.

Stay safe and have fun

Iccotak · January 2021

@Anotherone773

We have addressed your solution in a separate thread. And the main reason why your “casual and advanced” filter doesn’t work is because it doesn’t solve the problem that you are trying to address.

Because the type of people that you were complaining about will do whatever queue is faster. No matter if it inconveniences other people, because they don’t care.

The problem with your solution is that it

1. Lacks nuance in playstyle preference.
2. Would actually be more complicated to pull off as I laid out in the previous thread - just because you refuse that answer doesn’t make it less true.
3. Your solution is relying on the concept of a persons better nature, their goodwill, and the individuals modicum of common sense and decency. Which doesn’t work, it never has.

Also Story Mode has been a request for over three years even before speed runners became an issue.

It’s a great solution Not only for those who want to play at their own pace and don’t want to beholden to a group - but also works for ZOS who keeps weaving the dungeons into the year long story.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm pretty much of the mind that dungeons and trials should have absolutely 0 story to them period. Group gameplay is not conducive to stories.

I disagree with this assertion. In fact it shows that by integrating group content into the story that you actually get more players engaged in the story. Whether they’re new, casual, end game, etc. you have a greater level of engagement and excitement when group and end game content is involved in the story.

This is part of why the Easy Main Story Bosses have been a complaint.

And imo if ZOS is going to include dungeons in the year long story then there is no reason to not make Main Story Bosses group content too - or Hard Boss Solo Arenas.

@zvavi is correct when they point out that the incentive is the overriding factor for speed runners. Which many here have pointed out. If you reduce the incentive for normal and increase it for veteran then those speeders are far more likely to play the mode with greater incentive.

a real solution would be:
1. add solo reward-less (with standard quest rewards, heck, even have the skill point) story mode.
2. lower crystals from random normal to 5. if it was dlc dungeon 7. random vet 10. if it gave a dlc then 15.
3. option to resign from dlc/non dlc when doing a random.
4. add 3 crystals for every worldboss/delve daily.
5. add 2 crystal for every non daily quest completed.

Anotherone773 · January 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

@Anotherone773

We have addressed your solution in a separate thread. And the main reason why your “casual and advanced” filter doesn’t work is because it doesn’t solve the problem that you are trying to address.

You havent read my posts in this thread have you? The problem you think there will be doesn't exist.

Because the type of people that you were complaining about will do whatever queue is faster. No matter if it inconveniences other people, because they don’t care.

This is not a problem because, in case you didnt read... which you didn't, there are mechanisms that keep reward driven players out of the casual queue:
1. It is filled more heavily with casual players, which slow reward players down.
2. The crystals rewards are cut by 50% in casual.
3. In the advanced queue, as i explained in one of those posts, you didnt bother to read before commenting, players can queue for 2 of 3 of the roles.They can "dual role" in dungeons. So if someone thinks they can tank as well as dps and wants to slot inner fire and queue, they can go for it. Same with heals. The DF counts 2 roles you selected to fufill requirements. The players in the advanced understand that support from the group is going to be lighter than casual so their survivability will depend more heavily on their own abilities. This will allow queues to be filled extremely quickly in the advanced group which is something that is really important to this group as they want to get as many runs out of the way in as little time as possible.

So i have completely eliminated any benefit a runner might have to use the casual group.

2. Would actually be more complicated to pull off as I laid out in the previous thread - just because you refuse that answer doesn’t make it less true.

I consider your comment on this to be irrelevant and since changes are required for any solution. The way you THINK the DF would need to work in those " points" were also not likely to be the way it was implemented.

3. Your solution is relying on the concept of a persons better nature, their goodwill, and the individuals modicum of common sense and decency. Which doesn’t work, it never has.

That is false. My solution relies on given both groups what they want the most from the experience without the groups needing to run that content together. There is no reason why a reward driven player would want to queue casual and no reason a fun driven player would want to go in advanced. In both cases they are more likely to be booted and told to properly queue for dungeons.

Also Story Mode has been a request for over three years even before speed runners became an issue.

Im not talking about speed runners in this thread. I am talking about a larger group of reward driven players and they exist in every game from start to finish. The toxic players, which is a much smaller group, are ones that typically drive discussions like this.

It’s a great solution Not only for those who want to play at their own pace and don’t want to beholden to a group - but also works for ZOS who keeps weaving the dungeons into the year long story.

It is a good solution TO YOU because it gives YOU what you want, while appeasing literally no one else. Your solution solves a problem for tiny sliver of the dungeon running population. My solution solves the problem for the ENTIRE population of dungeon running players. Also i dont believe dungeons should ever have a SOLO option which what many story modes suggestions have been. If you want a solo story mode, do delves there are dozens of them. Dungeons are group content and should stay that way. We have plenty of single player content already. This is an MMO not TES 6.

Also if your going to drag what was said in thread X into thread Y, the LEAST you could do is quote what you are specifically talking about instead of " in that other thread".

Vaoh · January 2021

Story difficulty in dungeons is one of those things that gets brought up countless times. Also a harder difficulty for better drops too.

It doesn’t sound like it’ll happen anytime soon...

Iccotak · January 2021

@Anotherone773

1. It is filled more heavily with casual players, which slow reward players down.
2. The crystals rewards are cut by 50% in casual.

Already happens with the solution I and others presented.
With that alone you would not need a casual/advanced filter.
Let alone queuing as multiple roles

In the advanced queue, as i explained in one of those posts, you didnt bother to read before commenting, players can queue for 2 of 3 of the roles. They can "dual role" in dungeons.

The point of the GF is to find 4 people and again this complicates things. Firstly, I could see Major exploitation from being able to queue for multiple roles. Also encourage a toxic environment against players who specialize in one role.

You don’t consider the implications of what such a proposal would bring or even require.
Add the multiple role queue On Top of Casual/Advanced which are on top of Normal/Veteran and you have a real problem.

I consider your comment on this to be irrelevant and since changes are required for any solution. The way you THINK the DF would need to work in those " points" were also not likely to be the way it was implemented.

It’s not laying out what I think. It’s laying out what kind of filters you’re asking for and how that changes things.

You’re refusal that it would be complicated doesn’t mean it won’t be complicated.

As I laid out what adding a layer of filters would imply for GF (which ZOS has spoken on how it’s not performing optimally and are still working on it)

Like I said before

Group Finder has had numerous issues since Day 1. They recently spoke out on how they currently don't have plans for a Trial Group Finder because they are still having issues with Group Finder as it is.
I am not a coder but if they are having trouble with just two filters then I can see issues with adding 2-3 more filters. Keep in mind it is not just a drop down filter - it is a filter for pairing a group of players into the same instance. That's alot of traffic.

Now it's no longer Normal and Veteran, now it is;
- Normal (Casual) & Normal (Advanced)
- Veteran (Casual) & Veteran (Advanced)

That is now four filters, twice what they are currently having issues with.
Then there's Role Filters - meaning each Difficulty + Playstyle niche gets three filters.

So what was originally 6 (Difficulty x Role) is now ((Difficulty x Playstyle) x Role) adding up to 12 filters.

btw Veteran(advanced) players absolutely focus on roles. There are many demands on DD, Tank, and the Healer - no one really cares about that in casual normal experiences, until the later level dungeons that is. Especially the DLC dungeons

Each filter with a probable potential to be longer because they are all more niche.

Take all the problems laid out there then add Queuing with Role Combinations on top of that.
Again not considering the kinda of changes you’re proposing.

It is a good solution TO YOU because it gives YOU what you want, while appeasing literally no one else. Your solution solves a problem for tiny sliver of the dungeon running population.

Doubtful. It’s something that’s been requested here and other online communities for quite sometime.

Like it was pointed out earlier by @zvavi your solution lacks nuance and makes very broad generalizations of players play-styles without taking into account other variables and depends on unreliable variables.

you cant put people in one group or another. there is a whole spectrum. more than that. where will you put people that enjoy the combat? where will you put people that like to ghost run through dungeons? where will you put people that want to hear the whole dialogs? where will you put people that will take 5 minutes break every boss? there are many many, many, different reasons to go to a dungeon, with a specific playstyle in mind. you cant put it in 2 groups.

My solution solves the problem for the ENTIRE population of dungeon running players.

I’d say it would actually make things worse. 1 step forward two steps back.

Also i dont believe dungeons should ever have a SOLO option which what many story modes suggestions have been. If you want a solo story mode, do delves there are dozens of them. Dungeons are group content and should stay that way.

Or Both Main Story Bosses and Dungeons should have both solo and hard/group mode.
Maybe stop pushing these two things to basically be two different games.

If people are going to ask for a solo dungeon mode then I’m going to ask for a group story mode.

hafgood · January 2021

Casual vs advanved

You have made on base assumption in how you set the two groups up.

You have assumed that the casual player is happy to have reduced rewards over what they could get for running the other queue.

And I'm assuming this means 3 queues in total?

Casual player
Normal
Vet

Because you can keep your hands off my ability as a so called vet player to do a random normal.

Would I do a vet random for increased rewards? Probably not, unless I was playing with someone that didn't have the dlc's. When doing a random daily I wouldn't want vLOM for instance. While I have completed it many haven't.

I'm fortunate in that 99% of my dungeon runs involve no PUGS. But we have some who run with us that don't mind vet base game dungeons but who won't do vet dlc's. So we would still need to be able to run random normals to include them, they enjoy doing them, we enjoy doing them.

I run dungeons for the simple reason I enjoy dungeons. My friends need transmute crystals so I'm happy to run with them. Sometimes we do the Spindle Spider Train, other times we kill everything. If we have a PUG we will make sure they get to do the quest if they tell us, if they don't its not our problem. Equally we will say we are fake tank and fake healer but have no problem cheesing the bosses due to our dps.

Is it a perfect PUG experience? No. Can they get done what they need to? Yes if they tell us, which they never do, most of the times they are running ahead anyway.

We communicate over voice channels, if they chose to not be in group chat that is their problem not ours, I know everyone doesn't play on mic, I know people are socially awkward, that there are language barriers but not everyone bites.

Your casual queue would be incredibly under utilised with lower rewards as even casuals like the full rewards, and I can't imagine how long it would take to get a group together.

The only acceptable additional queue would be a story mode where you can solo the dungeon, where the adds and bosses are really really easy and there are no rewards other than completion of the quest. I wouldn't even give the skill point. Dungeons are meant to be a group activity.

If you want to run it in a specific way find 3 other players to do so, don't rely on PUGs.

Speed runners are selfish.

Go slows are selfish

Questers are selfish

Essentially every player in the game is selfish in one way or another. Whatever system you come up with it will be abused by one group or another as everyone plays the game differently. There are not two groups as people seem to think, there are a multitude of groups all with different agendas, there is no way to cater for them all.

GrimTheReaper45 · January 2021

I would also really like a story mode for dungeons, would be nice to go through the story at your own pace without being rushed. Like a cant tell you one story from my entire time playing eso because every time I join a group to do them its to farm gear.

It doesnt have to drop any gear or anything as to not discourage people from farming the dungeons in groups, just need it to let you experience the dungeon on your own for the story.

Bonus if you let us go through the quest every time we enter

GenjiraX · January 2021

I thought the simplest solution would be to disable kicking in Normal mode, encouraging players to take it at quest pace and allow for other Group members to read, look around and pick up all the loot.

zvavi · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

refer to this thread. and the other thread i linked earlier. and show me the many that disagreed.

Several that disagreed in this thread alone.

the closest thing to disagreeing in this thread, is a person saying they can get behind it only if it has no skill point. which is, not disagreeing...

Anotherone773 wrote: »

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

no. that is an opinion. not a fact.

Rather than backtrack this to show you where its not true ill instead focus on

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

which was your reply to me "saying nothing about speed runners".

In this you focused on that paragraph. the one under it i focused on fun players( those who play for fun rather than rewards). It is the paragraph under this one in which i said:

Not all reward driven players are the evil demons it seem i am describing them as and not all fun driven players are the happy hippies, i seem to describe them as.

The bolded parts are the key to

I actually said a majority...for both groups which is true. There are always exceptions. Rewards, in this case, doesn't always mean an actual reward at the end. Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc.

It is true i was talking about a majority which i stated here.

thats exactly what i have beef with. your point of view, and everything you said including the bolded part, comes down to majority of the "reward driven players" are impatient, aggressive, selfish inconsiderate. and i already stated why such an opinion is toxic. here is a quote of where i did.

using an opinion to put negative traits to a specific crowd, regardless of it being right or wrong, is toxic.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I know it is true because i am the author of that sentence and can verify both that is what was said and what i meant. The second part of that quote is also true because i am the author of that as well. This particular part you quoted:

Rewards can also include completions,achievements, XP( getting as much XP as possible), etc etc

i was clarifying for you that is what i mean by rewards is not limited to the drops or RGF bonuses. Everything i said in what you quoted is true, you just misinterpreted it.

i did not misinterpret anything, you are being very aggressive with your opinion.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

no. i said that in a group of 3 speeders, and one questers, the quester should be ready to yield. i did not say anything about any other composition, and never did.

I don't understand why you keep calling people selfish for playing DPS? I never said anything about another scenario either so i don't know what you are on about. I have only talked about your scenario.

because playing a support role is less selfish than playing a damage dealer? because there are more damage dealers, so by playing support you will help queue times for damage dealers to go faster, while when you play damage dealer you make them longer?

Anotherone773 wrote: »

no. i said that in a group of 3 speeders, and one questers, the quester should be ready to yield. i did not say anything about any other composition, and never did.

I never did either so i don't know what you are on about. I have only talked about your scenario.

alright, since we have 3 speedrunners, that lose an equal time to the quester each in my scenario, please explain how did this come to be.

Your perspective though keeps focusing on that reward seeking players must always come first( even though it ruins the play for the fun group as well). It is this view that " i must have my reward therefore my needs are more important than yours" from this group that cause the issues.

which is kinda amusing, since in the specific scenario i described, expecting the 3 speedrunners to wait, is actually putting the "fun" person's perspective as "i must have my reward (having a relatively slow run) therefore my needs are more important than yours"

Anotherone773 wrote: »

no. using an opinion to put negative traits to a specific crowd, regardless of it being right or wrong, is toxic. if u didnt like the previous example, here are more toxic comment examples:

I don't think you understand what toxic means. Some definitions for you:
"TOXIC means Bad Attitude and Behavior in an online gaming context. It is not uncommon for a player to feel aggrieved in some way. ... Whatever the reason, a player who is constantly complaining, tutting, or swearing is described as TOXIC."

and

"Toxic is a choice The type of toxic behavior in each game can be vary, but generally, it's a social interaction that includes cyber-bullying, disturbing other players, acting nosy, cheating"

and

"a toxic player is someone who constantly creates a bad atmosphere which interferes with your gaming experience."

I can find hundreds of definitions of toxic in gaming that basically all say the same thing. The traits i listed are negative yes but i did not say them in a derogatory or malicious way. I also stated, which you quoted, that they are not the demons that it may seem that i am making them out to be. I also stated further down that i understand why reward players do what they do and i have no ill will towards them or how they want to play the game. The problem , as i mentioned are the two groups of people are not compatible in group content. Fun players are a drag to reward players and reward players make dungeons unpleasant. I also said that reward players tend to produce most of the toxicity in dungeon running which is true. I also didn't single out any player and when i speak of "you" i mean in the general sense unless im speaking of something you say. I normally state this but sometimes i forget.

being toxic has nothing to do with the person's aim to be malicious or not. also i did not say toxic gamer, because it is not exclusive to gamers.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You cannot have a healthy debate about anything if no one is ever allowed to say anything bad about it. As i said earlier their are psychological reasons( also not bad, i am not calling any one mentally ill, crazy, etc.) why many of those traits are dominate in reward runners. I am not going into that. But it is in the same realm of gambling addiction and has in part to do with the reward center's in our brain. It is also perfectly fine they want to play the game that way. My only problem is when they become toxic and/or ruin it for other players because they think they supersede those players in rights.

uh i will give you examples:
1. "most 'fun' players are toxic because they dont care about the time of others, and expect them to waste their time so they can take it easy" - singling out and might be not true (since it is only relying on own experience), therefore toxic.
2. "many 'fun' players are toxic because they dont care about the time of others, and expect them to waste their time so they can take it easy" - not singling out and true (since you have encountered many, and it includes only your encounters, not the whole crowd).

your comments all fall under example n1 (notice that those are examples, and i do not believe such sentences, they are there to emulate a general feeling of types of comments).

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I also don't think LFG normals is the correct place for crystals runners. I understand why they run those and ZOS did make an already bad problem in this game much much worse by making the changes they did here. That is what we are hoping to fix so everyone can enjoy dungeons without having to play the other peoples way. I just strongly disagree that story mode is the way to do that as it only caters to a small portion of the player base and ignores a large majority.

1. longer queue times, hitting "both" groups.

This is literally the only defense anyone can ever manage. One of the reasons dungeons are not as popular in this game is because of the toxic players, the pressure to be good before you enter, and the incompatibility of two different groups make them unpleasant for everyone.

The advanced group would be able to queue as 2 of 3 roles. So when it sorts people into groups it will check to see who can fulfill each role but each person can fill two roles. So you are no longer stuck with say 80 DPS,15 healers, and 5 tanks out of 100 in queue for dungeons. Basically the role restriction is almost completely lifted. If you think you can tank on your DPS and want to slot inner fire and your friend thinks he can heal well enough to heal the average group and queues as heals and tank. You two just covered all 3 roles by yourself. Currently you would both be consider fake tank/heals. Under the new system a person joining your advanced group would have to understand that they have to fend for themselves more. This group is for advanced players who can handle themselves in these dungeons with little assistance.

The advanced group would be a magical experience for reward runners because queues would be nearly instant, the players running the dungeon would understand that group support may not be as strong as the casual queue, and they don't have to deal with questers, people learning mechanics, lowbies trying to run the dungeons and all the stuff that slows them down. We can even set a min level before you can queue for advanced.

2. you cant put people in one group or another. there is a whole spectrum. more than that. where will you put people that enjoy the combat? where will you put people that like to ghost run through dungeons? where will you put people that want to hear the whole dialogs? where will you put people that will take 5 minutes break every boss? there are many many, many, different reasons to go to a dungeon, with a specific playstyle in mind. you cant put it in 2 groups.

We have one group now so this reason doesnt even make sense. But i can tell from experience what is important to both groups, playing heals allows you to spend a lot of time observing in this game.

Reward players, those that would be in the advanced group, generally have the same goals in mind. It doesn't matter why they want to blow through the dungeon, the fact they all want to go at a quick pace means that the friction normally present in dungeons will be greatly reduced in their groups. You will always have ass holes to deal with in any group but the people the advanced queue would apply too would all have the same general goals.

no. it doesnt mean they have the same goal in mind. people that enjoy the combat will try to enjoy the combat. people that want the reward asap will try to ghostrun through the adds while being dead instead of fighting. people that want to learn mechanics from advanced players will also want explanations. people that expect a tank. people that expect a healer support. all those will not be suddenly happy because there is a new queue. the "fun" crowd, would not always be happy either, since some people will queue with the aim to complete the dungeon, while others might go there with the aim of trying it out (specifically dlc dungeons)

Anotherone773 wrote: »

One reason i can tell you are not someone that plays for fun is because you don't think like a fun player. What you think is issue that would cause the need to have multiple queues for the casual group doesn't bother the people who would be in the casual group with the small exception of new players that are reward driven, but those guys typically arent that bad because they are still learning and often trying to figure things out themselves.

you are still assuming "reward driven players" are usually selfish and inconsiderate...which i disagreed with from the very beginning.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

All the other types of runners who would be casual players actually get along and do fine together. So like with the advanced group the friction would be minimal. Also because this is a more pleasant experience i know loads of people who would do more dungeons. I know quite a few people that do fewer dungeons or none at all because of how they are now. I also do a lot fewer myself. I normally would run 5-10 dungeons a week. I probably run 5 a month. I also almost always play heals and tanks in dungeons so that takes a critical role out of the queue.

yes, i noticed that you are willing to hurt queue times for everyone because you think your solution will solve your problem (when you can already gather a likeminded group from the various tools in game)

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The other think i think you don't understand is that i am not sorting people into groups, ZOS isn't sorting them into groups. People are sorting themselves into groups. Do want to casually run a dungeon today? Queue in the casual queue. Just want to grind xp or collect rewards? Queue in the advanced queue. BUT...regardless of which queue you queue in, expect to run the dungeon like that queue and not " however you want". Dont be trying to get the advanced queue to stop for quests and don't be trying to do a speed run on the casual queue.

no, you are sorting people into 2 groups, where i dont belong to either. i am a person that doesnt care about the reward, and enjoys the combat, doesnt mind waiting and explaining, but doesnt like wiping over and over again for 2 hours with no seemed progress. i run the vet dlc dungeons i do for fun. but i would like to complete it on the end of the day. your exclusion of people like me, already shows how flawed your idea is, there are probably more examples of people that dont belong to either crowd.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

On a last note, fun players are more patient in general, so more tolerant of longer queues, especially if improves the experience in the dungeon quite a bit. The casual queue would also have all the newbies which will keep things moving.

which is also an opinion. my opinion will be is that most "fun" dds will end up ditching the queue because they will see that it takes 2 hours to get into a dungeon, making it essentially useless for those who dont have extremely long periods of playtime. obviously since you play a healer it will benefit you, since it will carter to people with the same mindset as you, with a minimal queue times (healer, support role) while giving longer queues without a guarantee for the dungeon run they are expecting to other kinds of players (non-support roles that dont have time and are "fun" players, everyone else that doesnt belong to either group, and even the "reward driven players" as you described them, since they will not get only rushers, and have longer queue times).

Anotherone773 · January 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Already happens with the solution I and others presented.
With that alone you would not need a casual/advanced filter.
Let alone queuing as multiple roles

It doesn't because you solution only solves the problem once for a tiny portion of the dungeon running population and doesn't solve it for anyone else. You only care about solving YOUR problem, not the general problem with dungeons.

The point of the GF is to find 4 people and again this complicates things. Firstly, I could see Major exploitation from being able to queue for multiple roles. Also encourage a toxic environment against players who specialize in one role.

You don’t consider the implications of what such a proposal would bring or even require.
Add the multiple role queue On Top of Casual/Advanced which are on top of Normal/Veteran and you have a real problem.

You don't understand what i am proposing in most of my proposals. You try to argue it but what you are arguing is a strawman because its not even what i actually said. You also don't seem to grasp how a LFG tool operates or have any knowledge of coding. You are just making wild assumptions based on a few choice phrases and hoping something sticks. That is why i stopped debating you in the other thread, i get tired of explaining the same thing to the same person 20 times and arguing strawmans.

But i will address the roles again. In the following scenario if we were doing dungeons together and queued together
* If i queue as heals and DPS.
* If you queue as tank and DPS.
* Player 3 can be any role(s)
* Player 4 can be any role(s)

We would be expected to be able to fulfill both roles. So you would be expected to be able to taunt, i would be expected to have some group heal ability. We would both be expected to contribute to DPS...fairly significantly. The same is true for player 3 and 4. They would be expected to at least be able to fulfill their roles. There is no exploitation because you acknowledge when you enter a dungeon in the advance queue that support from your group is going to be lighter and you are going to be expected to take care of yourself more. Most experienced players are capable of taking care of themselves in most situations. If you can survive harrowstorms, dragons, and world bosses while doing them with a small group then you are capable of taking care of yourself already.

This makes near instant queue pops on advanced mode.

It’s not laying out what I think. It’s laying out what kind of filters you’re asking for and how that changes things.

You’re refusal that it would be complicated doesn’t mean it won’t be complicated.

As I laid out what adding a layer of filters would imply for GF (which ZOS has spoken on how it’s not performing optimally and are still working on it)

Its not a bunch of filters its a SINGLE filter. Its not hard.
Filter: Has player checked "Advanced" check box?
*Answer: No. Result: Player put in queue system labeled "Casual"
* Answer: Yes. Result: Player put in queue system labeled " Advanced"

Thats it. Not difficult. Can literally be done with a check box and a few lines of code. No need to create 24 different queues based on every possible option there could be. That is not how an LFG tool works or any software. Software literally sorts what i am talking about on True/False. If true, then X. If false, then Y.

Doubtful. It’s something that’s been requested here and other online communities for quite sometime.

Like it was pointed out earlier by @zvavi your solution lacks nuance and makes very broad generalizations of players play-styles without taking into account other variables and depends on unreliable variables.

YOU are a minority. I am a minority, Story Mode supporters are a minority. Your solution and all the story mode supporters solutions are for a minority of players. That makes it a terrible solution. There are multiple problems that are complained about by a variety of people that my solution fixes for everyone and hurts no one. There is no one that is worse off from my solution to the problem.

I am a fixer, i fix problems regardless of whose problem it is. My special skill is the ability to find a solution to almost any problem and to look at things without bias.

If people are going to ask for a solo dungeon mode then I’m going to ask for a group story mode.

Solo dungeon mode already exists, go to dungeon, solo.

Please stop tagging me, its annoying to be tagged for responses. You know i respond in these threads if i want too.

hafgood wrote: »

Casual vs advanved

You have made on base assumption in how you set the two groups up.

You have assumed that the casual player is happy to have reduced rewards over what they could get for running the other queue.

And I'm assuming this means 3 queues in total?

Casual player
Normal
Vet

I assume you are referring to my suggestion.
Like i said in this reply:

Its not a bunch of filters its a SINGLE filter. Its not hard.
Filter: Has player checked "Advanced" check box?
*Answer: No. Result: Player put in queue system labeled "Casual"
* Answer: Yes. Result: Player put in queue system labeled " Advanced"

Its a check box you check to be sorted into the advanced queue nothing else about the queue system is changed. Either check or don't check the box. The rewards and roles are different to encourage those who run for rewards to queue in the advance system. Also to cater to their desire to "grind' a bunch of this type of content quickly, the role restrictions are far less, allowingyou to fill two of three roles when you enter the dungeon. Advanced players can often, as they love to point out, "fend for themselves" so this just makes sure you have at least one person that will at least slot a taunt and can take a hit and another that at least as a group heal they are willing to toss out. But everyone could be DPS with inner fire and someone backbaring a resto staff or slotting a class group heal or whatever.

This will allow near instant queues for reward driven people so little to no wait time and the people they are running with will also be looking to maximize getting through the dungeon as well. Leading to less toxicity between players because everyone has similar goals.

The default queue would be casuals which is the queue for newbies, quest runners, people learning mechanics and the like. These people are far more tolerant of a slower speed and people who may be struggling or poorly geared. They are also willing to wait longer for a more pleasant experience and not feeling like they have to rush through the dungeon because someone has 5 more pledges to do tonight.

The rewards for casual would be the same except that you only get 5 crystals instead of 10. You may also only pick one role like it is now. People can swap between casual and advanced dungeon queues by checking or unchecking the checkbox. So if you feel like doing a lazy run you can queue in casual and then if you decide you want to grind out some crystals before bed you just check the box and get put in advanced.

Something else i would is disable the quests in the advance queues so you can't even do them there. I would also make dungeon quests repeatable in casual mode but you only can claim the reward once. This solves story mode and prevent questers from slowing the advance queue down because they are in a hurry but also want the skill point.

It is a really simply system that almost completely solves everyone's problem and has little to no negative impact on any players.

Anotherone773 · January 2021

@zvavi

The post size is getting riduclous, im tired of refuting the same assumptions and speculations and misunderstanding over and over. I have explained the system i proposed in great detail many many times and refuted so many strawman there is a shortage of straw.

My final reply on this subject was to @Iccotak unless someone presents me with a new argument. You two keep using the same arguments which i keep debunking and its just boring now. If you manage to come up with something new by all means present it but i read over your post and its just a rehash of stuff i already explained or debunked.

VampireLordLover99 · January 2021

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Only if story bosses in Overland/zone stories get an optional hard mode that introduces actual mechanics.

No reason why y'all should be able to step on the one thing group players have and us not be able to get a little something we've been requesting for solo play for a long time.

Inhuman003 · January 2021

If Story Mode is included it needs to be auto-lock where the players can and can't move on to the next stage freely.

Inhuman003 · January 2021

If Story Mode included and doing story mode there are Achievements

The Listener level 1 to 10
Lord Seeker level 1 to 5
Knowledge Dweller level 100
Forgotten Knowledge level all dungeons
Dark Knowledge Dweller level all dungeons
Bard of Dungeons level all dungeons

hafgood · January 2021

My final comment.

Whatever changes you propose to the queue system @Anotherone773 are never going to happen. They won't fix a thing.

Allow players to queue as tank or dps? They tick both. They get into a group and are the tank. Can they tank? No. Have they any intention of tanking? No. But players will still tick that box because it pops the queue quicker.

There is no solution whatever you may think that will stop people being people. No solution will make everyone happy.

If we get a story mode then people will moan its too easy or its too hard, that the rewards are not good enough, or that the rewards are too high.

What we have isn't perfect and for some people it doesn't work too well, but that may be an expectation issue.

The best way to run dungeons is not as a PUG bit with friends. There are a lot guilds out there that will help you speed run or quest or enjoy the story in dungeons, you just have to find the right guild for you

SammyKhajit · January 2021

All these debates... This one just wants THE STORY MODE