Patch/Maintenence Question

tawok · April 2014

I browsed for a bit and couldn't find a solid answer to this.

Do we have a schedule for maintenance?

Thunder · April 2014

Tuesdays and Fridays, and now apparently Mondays too? Sorry, the Monday was sarcasm, but I just don't understand taking the servers down on Mon when the next day is a regular maintenance day.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/75114/regular-maintenance-days-times#latest

Aett_Thorn · April 2014

They moved tomorrow's maintenance to today to fix stuff. I'd rather have stuff fixed sooner rather than later.

spawn10459 · April 2014

i would love for this stuff to have been fixed... before launch. only MMO i've ever played that had a scheduled maintenance twice a week.

Thunder · April 2014

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

They moved tomorrow's maintenance to today

That is not mentioned in their post about today's maintenance, but if you are correct then that's something I guess.

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

I'd rather have stuff fixed sooner rather than later.

I you want to play I'd rather, I'd rather they strive for uninterrupted service like every other internet service in existence.

siuolly · April 2014

I rather they have it fix today. Ever since last patch, every loading screen in Greenshade ends up infinite loading (Ok, almost every one of them). I have to force quit and restart the client every time I enter the mine, public dungeon... or whatever that display the load screen.

Aett_Thorn · April 2014

Every MMO I've ever played has had weekly downtime.

Would I rather it be just once a week for two hours like most other games? Sure. Do I realize that it's a new game and therefore maintenance for fixes is going to require more maintenance times? Yup!

I get people's frustrations, I really do. But if you really don't want to deal with more downtime as Devs try to fix problems, then never buy a game before it's been out for 6 months.

Trouvo · April 2014

Thunder wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

They moved tomorrow's maintenance to today

That is not mentioned in their post about today's maintenance, but if you are correct then that's something I guess.

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

I'd rather have stuff fixed sooner rather than later.

I you want to play I'd rather, I'd rather they strive for uninterrupted service like every other internet service in existence.

The mod in the thread confirmed it later on in a post of the same thread

yes, cuz mmo's are the same thing as internet services like google where the only thing that matters is the backend and not the client

Thunder · April 2014

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Do I realize that it's a new game and therefore maintenance for fixes is going to require more maintenance times? Yup!

Where do people get this idea that maintenance requires downtime? It doesn't. Everyone else on the internet maintains 99-100% uptime with much more sophisticated systems, and a great deal more at stake.

Somehow over the years MMO players have developed battered women sydrome and therefore don't feel they deserve quality service. I wonder if these people would be so forgiving of their electric company or bank? I'm sorry sir, you can't have your money right now, it's Tuesday, that's our maintenance day. Try back tomorrow.

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

Thunder wrote: »

Where do people get this idea that maintenance requires downtime? It doesn't. Everyone else on the internet maintains 99-100% uptime with much more sophisticated systems, and a great deal more at stake.

Somehow over the years MMO players have developed battered women sydrome and therefore don't feel they deserve quality service. I wonder if these people would be so forgiving of their electric company or bank? I'm sorry sir, you can't have your money right now, it's Tuesday, that's our maintenance day. Try back tomorrow.

"Everyone else" on the internet is a necessary service that is required for productivity. Although I know that services like Salesforce, which is something multiple companies rely on to do their daily business, have regular downtime, and even (shock and consternation!) unscheduled maintenance due to server bugs.

An MMO isn't a necessary service, so comparing it to a relatively popular online business platform (like Salesforce) is ridiculous. Comparing it to a bank is an analogy-crime.

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

Double post.

Thunder · April 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

"Everyone else" on the internet is a necessary service that is required for productivity.

Netflix, Facebook, Youtube... need I go on?

Trouvo · April 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Thunder wrote: »

Where do people get this idea that maintenance requires downtime? It doesn't. Everyone else on the internet maintains 99-100% uptime with much more sophisticated systems, and a great deal more at stake.

Somehow over the years MMO players have developed battered women sydrome and therefore don't feel they deserve quality service. I wonder if these people would be so forgiving of their electric company or bank? I'm sorry sir, you can't have your money right now, it's Tuesday, that's our maintenance day. Try back tomorrow.

"Everyone else" on the internet is a necessary service that is required for productivity. Although I know that services like Salesforce, which is something multiple companies rely on to do their daily business, have regular downtime, and even (shock and consternation!) unscheduled maintenance due to server bugs.

An MMO isn't a necessary service, so comparing it to a relatively popular online business platform (like Salesforce) is ridiculous. Comparing it to a bank is an analogy-crime.

the problem is you compare mmo's to backend style systems that dont have a client that needs to be updated for integration as well, down time also gives them time to test and verify the patch worked as intended. Services like google and netflix etc do not require downtime because you dont notice it yes, it goes to a backend server then switches back because the info the consumer sees is not actually a constant stream of data, nor does it integrate with required information from a client like mmo's. The mmo's that have been able to do so before are ones that have multiple servers and far smaller instances of player interaction that can be ran while still updating the server like GW2 and Warframe for example. Major changes still required downtime. Having downtime instead of letting players stay in the game also helps to avoid bugs that could come about because of letting players stay in the game during the maintenance. It is a precautionary measure, and a valid one. You cant just hit refresh on your web browser like a game when you run into a problem.

raymo666 · April 2014

I'm okay with scheduled down times. No way around them with an MMO.

I only wish that they scheduled them during true off peak times. Why start a downtime that is going to last 4 to 6 hours at 8am when a fair number of your players would normally be on? Why not schedule the maintenance to begin around 3 or 4am, when the smallest percentage of your player base would be impacted.

In having played multiple MMO's going back to 2003, more times than not, the maintenance periods seem to be scheduled at times more convenient for the staff rather than times that impact the fewest number of players.

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

raymo666 wrote: »

I'm okay with scheduled down times. No way around them with an MMO.

I only wish that they scheduled them during true off peak times. Why start a downtime that is going to last 4 to 6 hours at 8am when a fair number of your players would normally be on? Why not schedule the maintenance to begin around 3 or 4am, when the smallest percentage of your player base would be impacted.

In having played multiple MMO's going back to 2003, more times than not, the maintenance periods seem to be scheduled at times more convenient for the staff rather than times that impact the fewest number of players.

In what world is 8AM "peak time"?

raymo666 · April 2014

8am is not the busiest time of the day, I agree completely. Better to do it 8am than 8pm. But why not schedule it at 3 or 4 am instead when the number of players online is far less than at 8am?

I guess what I'm saying, since we are the paying customers, they should schedule the maintenance at a time when it impacts the fewest number of players instead of a time that is more convenient for their support staff.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

raymo666 wrote: »

I'm okay with scheduled down times. No way around them with an MMO.

I only wish that they scheduled them during true off peak times. Why start a downtime that is going to last 4 to 6 hours at 8am when a fair number of your players would normally be on? Why not schedule the maintenance to begin around 3 or 4am, when the smallest percentage of your player base would be impacted.

In having played multiple MMO's going back to 2003, more times than not, the maintenance periods seem to be scheduled at times more convenient for the staff rather than times that impact the fewest number of players.

In what world is 8AM "peak time"?

Shimond · April 2014

raymo666 wrote: »

8am is not the busiest time of the day, I agree completely. Better to do it 8am than 8pm. But why not schedule it at 3 or 4 am instead when the number of players online is far less than at 8am?

I guess what I'm saying, since we are the paying customers, they should schedule the maintenance at a time when it impacts the fewest number of players instead of a time that is more convenient for their support staff.

Because 3-4AM Eastern is Midnight-1AM West Coast.

The bottom line is there is no ideal time. Someone's always going to be bothered by downtime.

tawok · April 2014

There are tried and true maintenance times in other MMOs that are based on when they're going to have the least players on. Any weekday morning is the ticket. Its the random, no warning, 9pm Saturday maintenance that annoy me. I only made this thread to see if theres an official post out there in regards to when the servers are going down.

Knovah · April 2014

Thunder wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

"Everyone else" on the internet is a necessary service that is required for productivity.

Netflix, Facebook, Youtube... need I go on?

What about mmo's...i cant think of one that does not have downtime...a few have downloads while you play but even those (Rift is one springs to mind) but even those have emergency downtimes....and been on many days and it has crashed due to server faliure.

If you know of a game that never goes down...especialy after launch...please let me know .

Alyrn_Grey · April 2014

Normally Tuesdays and Fridays but they announced in the forums that they were moving tomorrows maintenance to today. My guess is that they are either fixing an exploit or they are really aggrivated with the loading screens being to long and or locking up on you and so wanted to put the fix in.

Or it could be and likely is both of those.

raymo666 · April 2014

You are right. Some players will always be affected. But why not have it be the fewest number possible? Having been an MMO player for over 10 years and having played at all times of the day and night in multiple games, it's not rocket science to see and take note of when the fewest number of players are online. There are more people playing at 8 am eastern than at 4am eastern. They are performing maintenance when it's most convenient for them, not us. 8am is a typical start of the workday in most large offices and probably when the majority of their support staff are starting their day.

I'm not arguing for a time that is most convenient for me. Typically, I play during traditional prime time hours in the early to mid evening and am normally at work when maintenance is scheduled. I just think that it should be scheduled at a time in the best interest of the paying customers instead of the time most convenient for the company.

Shimond wrote: »

raymo666 wrote: »

8am is not the busiest time of the day, I agree completely. Better to do it 8am than 8pm. But why not schedule it at 3 or 4 am instead when the number of players online is far less than at 8am?

I guess what I'm saying, since we are the paying customers, they should schedule the maintenance at a time when it impacts the fewest number of players instead of a time that is more convenient for their support staff.

Because 3-4AM Eastern is Midnight-1AM West Coast.

The bottom line is there is no ideal time. Someone's always going to be bothered by downtime.

Thunder · April 2014

Trouvo wrote: »

the problem is you compare mmo's to backend style systems that dont have a client that needs to be updated for integration as well

The problem is that you do not have a fundamental understanding of how a computer operates. A computer does not function like the engine in a car, where you have to shut off the engine to work on it due to moving parts. There are no moving parts in a computer, it is what is referred to as a solid state device.

A computer is really nothing more than a very large set of switches, any of which can be turned on and off at any given time. However, contrary to the engine in a car, these switched can only be manipulated while the computer is on.

I think a lot of people envision server maintenance as a process of shutting off the computer and taking it apart to sweep out all the dust. Server machines actually run under tightly regulated environmentally controlled conditions, therefore aside from component failure there is very little physical maintenance required.

What Trouvo is going on about above actually isn't even maintenance. He's describing performing a software update. Even software updates can be done live, however, I will concur the amount of effort involved to facilitate a live software update would not be warranted simply to avoid the small inconvenience of a server restart.

If there were nothing more than a few server restarts here and there this would not be an issue for anyone. What people take issue with, and rightly so in my opinion, is the hours and hours of downtime every week they refer to as 'scheduled maintenance'.

The simple fact of the matter is that is entirely possible to design a complex client server system that is able to be maintained dynamically and 100% transparently to the end user. As witnessed by the countless systems on the internet that maintain a 99%+ uptime with vastly more complex infrastructure and consequence than an MMO.

I completely understand things go wrong sometimes, especially in a new MMO, and there will be unexpected interruptions of service here and there. What I take exception with is that many, certainly not all, MMOs do not even strive for uninterrupted service. They actually schedule many hours of downtime every week when the fact is they simply do not have to. This would not be acceptable from any other internet service, yet for some reason many MMO players feel they do not deserve uninterrupted service from their MMO.

I think the major factor in the general acceptance of this weekly downtime is that most people are simply unaware of how computers operate on a fundamental level. They hear things like Raymo666 said above, "No way around them with an MMO." and they just accept it as truth when the fact of the matter is that MMOs could easily achieve a 99%+ uptime just as any other service, but they don't even try.

Alyrn_Grey · April 2014

@Thunder that is sort of correct but an MMO actually isn't 1 server running in a room somewhere. It is a cluster or array of servers all running together. With various sections of the game segregated to its own virtual server.

What this means for your scenario is that all of those dozens of servers must be update and the players are typically not allowed to connect until the updates are done because the changes could cause fun if you get a mismatch between client and game.

So remember they are not shutting off 1 server restarting and updating it, they are doing that to dozens. Yes I'm sure they have tools to make the roll out easier but then you must check on the whole thing to make certain that it is correctly running and everything updated happily before they can let players back in.

Knovah · April 2014

@Thunder
You do realize that may be ok for a computer stand point but what about software? Some of these hot fixes might need to deploy binaries to the server software. There is client side transparencies that require restarts... or even windows of downtime to test said deployments…not everything on maintenance is just about the computer..

Even I know this and I only had 3 years of comp tech. They may need to save caches or back up old data. On occasion may need to roll back data. Optimize new data rebuild indexes and update the statistics in the engine.

Ok don’t want to talk software how about updating the hardware. Times that may need to be done…It is a lot more to just restarting. What you say is true from a computer stand point but you are not taking into the account the software they use ect ect…

While I understand what you say it is just not as simple as you make it out...Like I said I only have 3 years of basic college comp tech to fill my schedule (military nurse by trade) but even I know simple logic.

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

raymo666 wrote: »

You are right. Some players will always be affected. But why not have it be the fewest number possible? Having been an MMO player for over 10 years and having played at all times of the day and night in multiple games, it's not rocket science to see and take note of when the fewest number of players are online. There are more people playing at 8 am eastern than at 4am eastern. They are performing maintenance when it's most convenient for them, not us. 8am is a typical start of the workday in most large offices and probably when the majority of their support staff are starting their day.

I'm not arguing for a time that is most convenient for me. Typically, I play during traditional prime time hours in the early to mid evening and am normally at work when maintenance is scheduled. I just think that it should be scheduled at a time in the best interest of the paying customers instead of the time most convenient for the company.

They explained why it would affect the fewest possible. 3-4AM Eastern is 12-1AM Pacific, which is a peak time. 8AM on a weekday means that most people are at work, and there are not more players online at that hour.

raymo666 · April 2014

There are a fair number of people who play during the day due to work and/or life schedule.(stay at home parents, the unemployed, students who don't have classes) I'm not one of them, but I'm friends with a quite a few of them.

I can't conclusively prove my point without access to server data that will NEVER be shared with us. What I can say, in over 10 years of playing MMO's on North American severs, it's been my general experience that I see fewer people in game at 4am eastern compared to 8am. Period.

And to your point about it being 1 am on the west coast. Sure, there are more west Coasters playing at midnight compared to 4am their time. I don't disagree. But the North American server isn't populated only with players on the west coast. You are going to have more people from the east and midwest who are asleep compared to those out west who are still up.

This is all just academic. Zenimax isn't going to bring in a team for server maintenance to start at 4am just to impact fewer players. It would be nice if they did though.

[/quote]

They explained why it would affect the fewest possible. 3-4AM Eastern is 12-1AM Pacific, which is a peak time. 8AM on a weekday means that most people are at work, and there are not more players online at that hour.[/quote]

nerevarine1138 · April 2014

raymo666 wrote: »

There are a fair number of people who play during the day due to work and/or life schedule.(stay at home parents, the unemployed, students who don't have classes) I'm not one of them, but I'm friends with a quite a few of them.

I can't conclusively prove my point without access to server data that will NEVER be shared with us. What I can say, in over 10 years of playing MMO's on North American severs, it's been my general experience that I see fewer people in game at 4am eastern compared to 8am. Period.

And to your point about it being 1 am on the west coast. Sure, there are more west Coasters playing at midnight compared to 4am their time. I don't disagree. But the North American server isn't populated only with players on the west coast. You are going to have more people from the east and midwest who are asleep compared to those out west who are still up.

This is all just academic. Zenimax isn't going to bring in a team for server maintenance to start at 4am just to impact fewer players. It would be nice if they did though.

Are you honestly naive enough to think that ZO doesn't analyze the servers to determine what ideal downtimes would be? Just because you play during the day doesn't mean that you aren't part of a minority of the playerbase.

tawok · April 2014

Wouldn't it be nice if it were posted somewhere, and we had more than an hours warning to maintenance? EG:

"Hello folks, here is our maintenence schedule until further notice:

Mondays at 8am EST
Fridays at 8am EST

Once we are in a better place, maintenance will be every Friday at 8am EST."

A man can dream.