Story Mode Dungeons

cyberjanet · January 2021

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything. I can;t find a thread about it, so here is one. The stories of certain dungeons have been completely nerfed: for example, I remember when the group you were helping in Spindleclutch suddenly went mad and turned on you. That's gone. G-O-N-E gone. I'm sure there are others that aren't top of mind.
So, my suggestions for story mode:

1) If we can have normal mode and vet mode, then I'm sure story mode is entirely possible.
2) Bring back the old stories, and maybe expand the stories for the dungeons that don't have them.
3) Link story mode to a new category of achievements, being RP achievements. Let's make RP more important in the game, just like the justice system.
4) Introduce extra items into story mode, like the essence of mysticism in Vateshran. Maybe it's the same item you have to find across multiple dungeons, or each dungeon has its own set. I prefer the latter, and they need to take a long time to find. Locks like we have in Stone Garden would be a good option for story mode.
5) Secret bosses that only come up in story mode, with relevant achievements for defeating them.
6) I'm tempted to suggest antiquity leads and bound furnishing items that only come up in story mode, catering for the player that likes the non-combat side of the game, housing and antiquities. Maybe a special skin for finishing something exceptionally slowly and patiently, in contrast to the all the speedrun and demonic ability achievements in the rest of the game.
7) Lots of additions to lore, like in antiquities.
8) And finally, how about a special solo arena that requires a knowledge of lore to finish, rather than just the ability to nuke a boss.

I don't think the story mode dungeons should necessarily be solo, but they should be soloable. Many normal dungeons are soloable once you have enough gameplay experience, but some have special mechanics that make it impossible, like one person can't stand on two pressure panels at the same time to open a gate. This should be removed from story mode. I think RP guilds would probably enjoy grouping for story mode, and as the object is not to rush through, maybe introduce a secret way to defeat the boss if you don't have the DPS as a solo player. I'm thinking of all those puzzles that open doors.

9) As people are complaining about how fast PUGs go for random normal dungeons, how about a nice bag of transmute crystals (as in PvP campaigns) the first time you complete the full story mode dungeon with all its achievements?

cyberjanet · January 2021

PS. I don't even think we have to revamp every dungeon at the same time. Introducing new story mode options for dungeons gradually would be fine by me.

Everstorm · January 2021

cyberjanet wrote: »

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything.

And like most other reoccurring topics it is completely ignored by the powers that be. But since they saw it fit to "fix" Direfrost Keep's detour after years I wouldn't hold my breath.

zvavi · January 2021

I am very confused about half your suggestions, you are literally asking for more overland content. New lore part, achievements and antiquities are all things you get in overland, you are describing overland content, but with solo instances. It has nothing to do with dungeons anymore.

Also, side note, all dungeons have stories.

Only your first point has anything to do with story mode. Everything else is asking for more quests in general, since the creature you are making is no longer the same dungeon.

Edit: I see you editted transmute crystals in, I think any overland (non daily) quest you complete should award you 1 transmute crystal, with daily world boss/delve rewarding 3.

gatekeeper13 · January 2021

I am 2 years in this game and still dont remember one single story from dungeons. Every time people were rushing to finish as if someone was chasing them.

cyberjanet · January 2021

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

I am 2 years in this game and still dont remember one single story from dungeons. Every time people where rushing to finish as if someone was chasing them.

Yes, I often have to explain the stories to people who rushed through them... the other day I went to help someone with a gear farm, and didn't even take the quest (it was in a dungeon I hadn't done before, Castle Thorn I think) because I wanted time to enjoy the quest outside of gear farming.

Glurin · January 2021

My default position on dungeons in MMOs is "What story?". Has been for years. There's just no possible way to understand what's going on unless you can solo it because you're probably going to have a hard time finding a group that will actually take the time to read the quest text.

There was a time in MMO history when the natural flow and difficulty of a dungeon would slow people down enough that you could at least get some idea of what's supposed to be going on. Now though it's as if the RPG part of MMORPG just doesn't even register with people. It's like everyone has decided that MMOs should be Diablo clones, where the game is simply about slaughtering as many enemies as fast as possible with godlike characters.

UntilValhalla13 · January 2021

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

I am 2 years in this game and still dont remember one single story from dungeons. Every time people where rushing to finish as if someone was chasing them.

I'm like 5 or 6 years in, and couldn't tell you the story of any dungeon or trial, even after running them well over 100 times. XD

Vanya · January 2021

Honestly , there should be solo version of each dungeon ,story ultra casual mode all the same with extremely nerfed enemies so a player is finally able to enjoy peace and progress , leave veteran bs at side ,

Vanya · January 2021

P.S Normal as well, tis almost impossbile to findd a group that will respect new player , i saw only 1 once who was willing to wait for me.

hafgood · January 2021

The only way I could get behind a story mode is if that is all there is to it, the story. There should be no reward for it, not even the skill point you get for doing the quest. I genuinely mean all you can do is the equivalent of the quest so you can spend time understanding it.

Want the rewards and the skill point? Then do it on either normal or vet as it was meant to be done.

This is an MMO, its not a single player game, want a single player game? Then go play one

Titansteele · January 2021

Where I do not think the idea is a bad one I feel it would be a lot of development for what I personally feel would be something that a minority of people would want/use.

As a guild, while running dungeons people will call out if they are on the quest and we ask if they are after the skill point, story or both and will wait in the appropriate places for those enjoying the lore. Where we ask, in my experience it is not often that people take up the "story" offer.

PUG`s are full of feral players so I can empathise with the problem statement in that context. If the guilds you are in dont operate on your wavelength then maybe if you find one that does that is the solution to your problem.

I have not seen this topic come up a great deal, yes it crops up from time to time but If ZOS were to change their development approach and offered up a vote to see which 3 things out of a list of 10 popular idea`s the community would pick to go into the next release I would be very surprised if this featured.

InaMoonlight · January 2021

Think all of the ideas sound awesome, it would open whats pretty much a third of the game, for people who, like myself, prefer soloing and to whom a LARGE part of the story and explanations have previously simply been inaccessible, unless I felt like medicating for major anxiety attacks in advance.

But I've always missed a fun way to get transmute gems on my own, it seems weird that they're only tied to group-content and pvp (which is more or less group content unless one wants to get farmed lol)

Nairinhe · January 2021

Everstorm wrote: »

cyberjanet wrote: »

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything.

And like most other reoccurring topics it is completely ignored by the powers that be. But since they saw it fit to "fix" Direfrost Keep's detour after years I wouldn't hold my breath.

Finn said on one of last year's streams that solo/story mode isn't happening because (roughly, IIRC) dungeons are group content.

Thorgar · January 2021

I would really welcome such a feature very very much considering how much story and lore someone missis in dungeons with sprinters.

Thorgar · January 2021

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

I am 2 years in this game and still dont remember one single story from dungeons. Every time people where rushing to finish as if someone was chasing them.

+10 indeed!!

Anotherone773 · January 2021

Glurin wrote: »

My default position on dungeons in MMOs is "What story?". Has been for years. There's just no possible way to understand what's going on unless you can solo it because you're probably going to have a hard time finding a group that will actually take the time to read the quest text.

There was a time in MMO history when the natural flow and difficulty of a dungeon would slow people down enough that you could at least get some idea of what's supposed to be going on. Now though it's as if the RPG part of MMORPG just doesn't even register with people. It's like everyone has decided that MMOs should be Diablo clones, where the game is simply about slaughtering as many enemies as fast as possible with godlike characters.

I know players today are in a hurry to get to the end game content as fast as possible and then sit around saying how they are bored after skipping 90% of the games content. All content is ran for the reward value rather than enjoying the actual game itself. It's the excessive need for instant gratification we have now.

Starlock · January 2021

InaMoonlight wrote: »

Think all of the ideas sound awesome, it would open whats pretty much a third of the game, for people who, like myself, prefer soloing and to whom a LARGE part of the story and explanations have previously simply been inaccessible, unless I felt like medicating for major anxiety attacks in advance.

But I've always missed a fun way to get transmute gems on my own, it seems weird that they're only tied to group-content and pvp (which is more or less group content unless one wants to get farmed lol)

Restricting transmutes to group content made at least some sense when the original system came out. It was specifically designed to placate min-maxing trait-hunting grinders as a sort of insurance policy for drops, which was mostly the crowd who would be doing group content and PvP anyway. Since the release of jewelry crafting, and especially now with the set reconstruction system, this is no longer the case and continuing to gate transmutes behind group content is indefensible. There are many solutions to this - story mode dungeons being one of many - and it would be wise for at least one of those solutions to be implemented.

molecule · January 2021

So a whole new tier of dungeon, for a dungeon you will run ONCE for the story ?

Or do you anticipate people running the same dungeon multiple times to here the same story over and over again ?

If its solo, then the rewards must be removed as the rewards are group content based.

You really think ZOS will spend time, and more importantly money, on something that for the large percentage of people will be ignored, or at best , run once ?

Anotherone773 · January 2021

cyberjanet wrote: »

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything. I can;t find a thread about it, so here is one.

Story mode discussion is actually pretty new and seems to have only popped up with transmute crystal changes. It only fixes a tiny sliver of the actual problem and for most of the changes suggested to make it happen still require a good amount of work. It is not a good solution to the dungeon problem.

You see there are two types of dungeon runners. Those that are reward driven, and those that are fun driven. They are not compatible and they create a majority of the toxicity experienced in dungeons and everywhere else actually.

Reward driven players are impatient, aggressive, selfish, inconsiderate, and require almost constant rewards and instant gratification. They make up almost all of the toxicity in dungeon running. They get annoyed, belligerent, and will attempt to kick players that keep them from their reward. They will leave players behind, fake tank/heal queue, and try to solo bosses. Another player is either a buff to get them to their reward faster of a hindrance they try desperately to get to go away. Most people in this group have a type A personality. They will often turn gaming into a job or grind. Since this group is reward based they want the best rewards. So the hardest achieves, best gear, character perfection, etc are all top priority. They are highly competitive and are usually the ones that tell you to L2P and git gud because their brains could not possibly process not playing to your fullest potential and striving to be better. They will even spend countless hours doing research, learning game mechanics, and perfecting their skill rotation on dummies.

Fun driven players are the opposite in almost every way. They don't do content for the reward... or at least that is not the main incentive. They enjoy doing the content and will do it at much more casual pace. Ironically, this group is made up almost of all casual players. Most people in this group have a type B personality. Fun driven players have a lot more tolerance for newbies, people not pulling their weight, quest running, looting, etc. They will spend an hour or more wiping on the same boss with newbies trying to teach them how to conquer the mechanic. They only give up usually due to a time constraint( they don't view time the same way as reward driven players) or because the boss is impossible with the current group ( no possible way with resources available to dungeon group that the boss can be done). Their gratification comes from the content itself. Playing their characters, social interaction( even for the introverts), and just exploring the scenery. It doesn't matter to them that they did this dungeon 100 times because they have done it 100 times over months or years. They don't grind content and given the dungeon selection it may be weeks before they see this dungeon again. This group has a high tolerance of other players sharing in their content.

The problem is these groups are very different. Not all reward driven players are the evil demons it seem i am describing them as and not all fun driven players are the happy hippies, i seem to describe them as. Some reward players are quite pleasant and tolerate others well though you may feel rushed when playing with them as they try to be efficient as much as possible. Some fun players can be nasty, selfish, and just spiteful.

Story mode doesn't address the biggest problem for all dungeon runners and that is these two types of people are almost always incompatible when running content. They degrade the enjoyment of each other when they get paired up. It is fine that reward players want to play mostly for the reward and fun players want to skip their way through the game lazily completing content. They just can't do it together. We can argue who should make a guild/premade. and who should get to use the LFG tool all day long. The problem is everyone in the game paid for the exact same content so no one should be excluded from that content by other players or told they have to do X if they want to do Y content.

The best solution for everyone is to divide the dungeon queue into casuals and advanced queues. I would also allow advanced to select 2 of the 3 roles that they think they can do well in the dungeons for the group( not just themselves) and as long as someone is covering all 3 roles that is fine rather than have a hard role definition. The casual side would have two changes. The first is that stories would be repeatable. Every time you enter the dungeon you can go to the quest giver and get the story again. You can only claim rewards once. The quest marker will change to a blue repeatable marker once the reward has been claimed so you know you are only doing it for the story. Second casual dungeons all have a trigger point before each boss in which 3 of 4 or 2 of 3 players must pass before the boss fight can be started. This will deter speed runners as well as those that linger behind to much slowing the pace to a crawl. I would even take this a step further and say the transmute reward for the casual queue is 50% of that for the advanced queue. This will further discourage reward runners from using casual while still giving a decent reward to casual runners. Casuals can always do advanced if they really want crystals.

This is the only way to fix the issues with dungeons. We can debate who has priority and who should get to do what and when, but the reality is we all paid for the game just the same and we all believe we should be able to play the the way we want as long as it doesn't violate any rules. The only solution to give everyone this fairly is to divide the groups so like minded players can queue together and will have similar goals when they enter the dungeon.

Edit: Added missing words in several places.

InaMoonlight · January 2021

hafgood wrote: »

The only way I could get behind a story mode is if that is all there is to it, the story. There should be no reward for it, not even the skill point you get for doing the quest. I genuinely mean all you can do is the equivalent of the quest so you can spend time understanding it.

Want the rewards and the skill point? Then do it on either normal or vet as it was meant to be done.

This is an MMO, its not a single player game, want a single player game? Then go play one

Think you forget the motto that theese days are "Tamriel Unlimited - PLAY AS YOU WANT" doesnt mean "everyone else plays as YOU want"

There's room for both types in eso, and so it should be

molecule wrote: »

So a whole new tier of dungeon, for a dungeon you will run ONCE for the story ?

Or do you anticipate people running the same dungeon multiple times to here the same story over and over again ?

If its solo, then the rewards must be removed as the rewards are group content based.

You really think ZOS will spend time, and more importantly money, on something that for the large percentage of people will be ignored, or at best , run once ?

Yes, but I WOULD run it more then once, maybe even fairly often, even if the rewards are less then they'd be running with a group.

And yes, I actually think they would, as it would widen the appeal of game to both new and existing players that gave up on toxic group-runs. Why are you scared of soloing being an option? Scared noone would run with your groups anymore, or does that enormous group of people who don't group, so you never had dealings with 'em most likely, somehow take something away from your game being able to explore the stories too? You do realize, if there was any rewards, we would be working for them, earning them too? I'm not thinking of a no-mob dungeon, just one that would be a fair challenge for a solo player while letting one absorb the details and intricacies of the given dungeon-story...

pelle412 · January 2021

I know this has been brought up dozens of times, but for ZoS to invest time into this there has to be a clear financial incentive, larger than introducing the new content their yearly plans have.

Alternatively, you can form a group of like-minded players and go through the dungeon at your own pace.

hafgood · January 2021

Oh no, the casual / vet split queues has been suggested again as thatbwill solve all the problems.

Not a chance. Everyone will gravitate to which ever pops fastest, and how do you define who has to use which queue and how do you enforce it? OK, I've reread yoir post. Whilst I can see where you are coming from it is a lot of work for no reward, no one would use the casual queue as everyone wants the rewards

@InaMoonlight - no I didn't forget that at all. You can play this game however you want and can choose whether to take part in group content or not but some of this game is designed to be played as a group. Players refusing to take part in group content have to accept they miss out on certain aspects of it. As I stated before this is an MMO it is not a single player game no matter how much many wish it was.

zvavi · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Story mode discussion is actually pretty new and seems to have only popped up with transmute crystal changes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/423339/story-mode

Other than it not being a recent discussion, you have more inaccuracies in your post.

For example the assumption that the speedruners are the selfish ones. Let's assume you get into fg1, and have 3 speedruners with you. If they wait for your quest, and kill all the bosses, the dungeon will take at least twice as long. 1 person gets their aim, you, while the 3 speedruners, lost half their aim each, of running as fast as they can for crystals, ending up in a lost 1.5 of a person's aim(time(?)) worth.

I am not arguing for speedruning here, just giving you an example of when the one asking for a slow run is the one being selfish. (In case he gets in a group of 3 speedruners).

VampireLordLover99 · January 2021

Only if we also get an optional hard mode for story bosses that make them actually fun and epic to fight.

Because if y'all are gonna step on the one thing group people have then we deserve to step a little in your territory too.

Story mode dungeons and optional harder bosses have been requested a bunch, can't have one without the other.

Also there are literally like 3 threads on this topic that have been made recently.

idk · January 2021

Since Zos started weaving the storyline each year through the dungeons I have suggested a solo mode was very much appropriate.

That is the only justification needed. If nothing else but for the dungeons, Zos has adding where the story directly connects to the yearlong story.

Not sure why OP suggests the stories for the dungeons have been nerfed as they seem to remain unchanged. Even the specific dungeon OP mentions are still the same story today as it was in April 2014. The only thing that has changed is Zos has nerfed the challenge (not the story) and power creep has been huge. However, OP is advocating a story mode which would be an easier mode that can be soloed. There is no reason to ask for an easier mode that requires a group because we already have that.

To the points made.

1. Of course. But Zos not seen it as something they want to do.
2. Have no idea what the "old stories" are. Evey dungeon has a story so there are old stories to bring back.
3. I expect there would be a basic achievement for clearing it in the most basic mode though that should be granted to anyone who clears it at any difficulty level. There is no need, or reason, for achievements beyond that.
4. Firm no to extra items into story mode as it should only meet the most basic need for seeing the story. The more difficult the mode the more that should come with it. Not the other way around.
5. Again, absolutely not. This is just a simple story mode and should have not have added rewards.
6. Again, a firm no as it goes against the design of the antiquities system. I am not aware of a single lead that requires a specific difficulty for a dungeon.
7. Again, no. The story mode of a dungeon should be the same story or else it defeats the purpose. As such there should not be any additions to the lore via story mode.
8. No point to knowledge of lore required to complete an arena. The requirements would be posted on a website for us to get the answers making it rather pointless.

idk · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

cyberjanet wrote: »

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything. I can;t find a thread about it, so here is one.

Story mode discussion is actually pretty new and seems to have only popped up with transmute crystal changes.

The requests for story mode dungeons began back when Zos started the yearlong story design which weaves the story through the dungeons added that year. As such the requests began about three years ago.

Anotherone773 · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Story mode discussion is actually pretty new and seems to have only popped up with transmute crystal changes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/423339/story-mode

Other than it not being a recent discussion, you have more inaccuracies in your post.

So there are a few threads, they die quickly though so obviously lack any forum support to keep them alive which is why i probably missed them.

For example the assumption that the speedruners are the selfish ones. Let's assume you get into fg1, and have 3 speedruners with you. If they wait for your quest, and kill all the bosses, the dungeon will take at least twice as long. 1 person gets their aim, you, while the 3 speedruners, lost half their aim each, of running as fast as they can for crystals, ending up in a lost 1.5 of a person's aim(time(?)) worth.

I didn't say anything about speed runners. I said reward driven players which by what i am literally quoting you proven you are one. Not only did you prove you are one, but you also have proven that you have some of those very traits i even said in this paragraph. Even if your "playing devil's advocate" the reason why i have to explain below how your exact argument on which of the two sides is selfish is critically flawed and you actually prove my point instead of trying to prove your own.

You see if a person in a dungeon says " quest" i go slower and if people who are going faster try to kick him for going slower, i will always say no. However, that persons needs dont matter despite they can only do the quest once but you can get crystals every.single.day. Your brain cant process how you are being selfish because to you they are being selfish for doing one thing that they can only do once, and if they dont finish it they have to queue to do it again so you are the one that wasted their time. Because even if it takes you an extra 5 minutes( The quest in FG1 isnt that bad) its only 5 minutes. Whereas now they have to run the whole dungeon leave it, queue again, and then run it again and hope the next group is not like the one they are in. So which one is being selfish again? The one that wont take 5 minutes longer so the newbie can do his quest and doesn't have to spend 10-20 maybe 60 minutes in a queue again and then hope he doesnt get a similar group...or the guy that is trying to do a quest which is part of the dungeon's design? Do you see how your argument makes zero logical sense?

Ironically this same group throws an absolute fit if you mess up them doing a pledge boss on pledge day. We are stopping for every.single. pledge boss! Even though it is significantly easier to get a pledge dungeon on pledge day then a specific dungeon you need to do for the quest.

I also came up with a perfectly acceptable solution as to how to solve this problem so both types of players can coexist and do content how they wish to without having to engage each other in the very post you quoted.

idk wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

cyberjanet wrote: »

It comes up again and again in comments, people asking for a story mode for dungeons for people who don't want to speedrun through everything. I can;t find a thread about it, so here is one.

Story mode discussion is actually pretty new and seems to have only popped up with transmute crystal changes.

The requests for story mode dungeons began back when Zos started the yearlong story design which weaves the story through the dungeons added that year. As such the requests began about three years ago.

Yes i saw that after i did a proper search. Being an active member of this forums, Steam forums, and Reddit, i have not seen story mode until recently. It must have always managed to die quickly and slip by me.

I would say the recent increase in dungeon toxicity due to crystal changes has gave it a longer life as people are trying desperately to get ZOS to do something about the dungeon situation besides make it worse which is what crystals did.

ssewallb14_ESO · January 2021

It would be really hard to create a GW2 style story mode for the way dungeons work in this game. You can't really make people read text at a certain speed as a game system for example.

I think the easiest way to do this would be just create a "solo" mode you could optionally group for. It would just be the normal mode but all trapping mechanics and solo progress blockers removed, maybe a little less heavy attack and mechanics damage in some DLC dungeons. The story quest would be repeatable in the same way trials are. Rewards would need to be reduced (maybe 50% drop rate on sets) to remove incentive to farm, otherwise you defeat the purpose.

This way people could agree to do the content at whatever pace, or worse case just complete the story solo.

AllegedParadigm · January 2021

I really wish there was something like that. I've been playing for about three months. I often queue for random normals because hey, free xp and a skill point if there's a quest. But yeah other players in the group always rush me. I've even been kicked for straying from the group to talk to a quest npc. I'm a completionist but I love the story aspect of the game and with each dungeon I've completed, I haven't been able to enjoy the dialogue because of others.

zvavi · January 2021

Anotherone773 wrote: »

So there are a few threads, they die quickly though so obviously lack any forum support to keep them alive which is why i probably missed them.

Threads that everyone agree with die quickly. while those that stay on the frontpage are the ones that are controversial. the only exception are threads that people dont want to let go of, like the bosmer passives, i think they did great job keeping that one up as long as they could.

didn't say anything about speed runners.

of course you didnt, because you assumed that people that rush are always driven by reward, which is essentially not true, i just chose to use a more accurate term.

also:

3 speed runners losing 5 minutes each by wasting for total of 15 minutes. or 1 slow pacer losing 5 minutes by group completing dungeon real quick. time out of the dungeon, obviously not calculated because:
1. people do stuff outside of the dungeon. and if they are staring at the air during that time, it is they who waste the time.
2. each group member can slot sword and board, pierce armor, self heal, chains, and tank the dungeon, which mean 2 minutes queue top. not 10-20 minutes. and if they dont enjoy tanking, they can slot a resto staff, deal damage while throwing a heal occasionally. for a 5 minutes queue.

that persons needs dont matter despite they can only do the quest once but you can get crystals every.single.day.

They can do that quest only 18 times (even more if they create more characters). they can also abandon the quest at the end, and re-run it. additionally he can do other 50+ quests per zone. while the speedrunner can do only random normals for fast crystals. an equivalently inaccurate argument would be "They can always just run the quest later since they dont care how fast they complete content, unlike the speed runners that want crystals now" sounds stupid, right?

the only correct argument in this whole fiesta is very simple. "speed running might leave a bad taste in the slow pacer's mouth." (while waiting for a player probably wont) with that, i can agree, and also the reason i will wait for such a reason, if someone asks. everything else you typed is highly biased (and generally, not even true).

additionally, you assumed that the slow pacer queued as dd. which is by itself selfish.

and ye. i like to be the devil advocate when people are overly toxic towards a crowd that doesn't deserve it. especially when both sides can be just as toxic, reference to a slow pacer being toxic:

Reward driven players are impatient, aggressive, selfish, inconsiderate