Race Against Time and Proctective Plate [Suggestion]

ealdwin · January 2021

I would like to suggest that these abilities have their base Snare and Immobilization immunity bumped up from their current 2 seconds to 4 seconds to put them more on par with other abilities such as Forward Momentum. Doing so would help provide a bit more survivability to Mag specs in PVP, and help to bring them just a bit closer to their Stam counterparts.

And, yes, I did read the Developer Comments in the 5.0.5 patch notes. But, consider what RAT does. It provides a DPS increasing Minor Buff for 12 seconds, a speed Major Buff for 4 seconds, and Snare/Immobilization removal and immunity for 4 seconds. Now, compare that with Forward Momentum, which provides a DPS increasing Major Buff for 20 seconds, a sustain Minor Buff for 20 seconds, Snare/Immobilization removal and immunity for 4 seconds. Both provide a Major and Minor buff and Snare/Immobilization immunity, but RAT has overall shorter durations across the board for all its buffs and utility. Furthermore, it is arguable that the Major Brutality provided by FM is more useful in PVP for damage than the Minor Force is (especially when Malacath is factored in). Then consider Protective Plate, which provides no Buffs, Major or Minor, but does provide 50% projectile damage reduction for 6 seconds, and Snare/Immobilization Immunity for 2 seconds.

I think it is fair to say that RAT and Protective Plate should be buffed to provide 4 seconds of Snare and Immobilization Immunity. Contrary to the notes in 5.0.5, this would not make these abilities more powerful compared to other skills. Especially when you consider that for some specs, RAT, is the only source of Snare/Immobilization Immunity without taking on vampirism (which should always be a choice, not a requirement for viability). I'm not asking for these abilities to somehow become better than the weapon abilities available to Stamina (which should be really good), but rather that the utility offered in the form of Snare/Immobilization Removal be at least on par with FM. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

Sergykid · January 2021

they won't audit abilities to balance them any time soon. They are still behind with item sets to bring them in line with their SBE standard (set bonus efficiency). Just look at the Band that is severely out of their SBE, or Slimecraw. Any proc set now is hitting harder than any slotted ability, they didn't lower their damage when they removed the proc chance, hence tripling their dps. So they will have a lot to work on item sets first before they move on to abilities. Also notice that they don't really care to balance things in a timely manner.

also, there is already very strong the kiting thing, people that just run forever without you being able to kill them because no range or line of sight. Those need a nerf not a buff. I don't mind increasing the snare immunity timer, but the speed buff should be removed then. Forward Momentum and Protective Plate do not give Major Expedition, Race Against Time to be brought on 4 sec timer would need to drop the speed buff (which would be fine as an abilities standard).

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

IMO, RAT is in a pretty good spot.

But Protective Plate absolutely needs a buff. It is significantly more expensive to cast than RAT and doesn't give you near the utility. Most deadly attacks aren't projectiles, so that benefit is dubious against most classes and the immunity period is simply far too short.

For such an expensive skill with no other named buffs, the immunity ought to be like 6 seconds. Of course, if you wanted to more thoroughly buff the skill (say, by giving it Minor Evasion for 20 seconds on cast), then a 4 second figure would be perfectly reasonable.

fred4 · January 2021

It's kind of hard to argue for buffing a skill that is already BIS for about half the mag-based PvP builds out there. The comparison with Forward Momentum is fair, though. Then again Rally / Forward Momentum are also outliers that are extremely BIS for many builds. Perhaps Rally more so than Forward Momentum, I guess.

If there is one thing I disagree with is Minor Force not being that useful. Malacath is only one option. Acuity is another and there are naturally high crit classes (templar, nightblade) and a race (Khajiit) that benefit. Depends on your perspective. I play in CP, thus more likely to build for crit, even without Acuity.

fred4 · January 2021

Sergykid wrote: »

I don't mind increasing the snare immunity timer, but the speed buff should be removed then. Forward Momentum and Protective Plate do not give Major Expedition, Race Against Time to be brought on 4 sec timer would need to drop the speed buff (which would be fine as an abilities standard).

This would destroy all that is good and proper about RAT! Stamina classes can dodge roll more. If you use a bow and Shuffle, you can get up to 7 seconds of snare immunity + Major Evasion + speed in a single GCD. More importantly you can Vigor and dodge roll, while also getting the speed. Play a magicka class and rely on RAT for mobility, then you have to find an extra GCD dedicated to RAT. That sets apart, for example, stamblade and magblade. The difference is huge in practice. When I am under pressure on my magblade, the choice is frequently between Healing Ward into a dodge roll (provided I have stamina) or RAT into a dodge roll. 90% of the time Healing Ward is the correct choice. The more I think about it, RAT isn't actually that great. Decent, very decent compared to before Psijic, but still not matching stamina for playability. It's probably about right exactly where it is. Take away the speed and it would become really weak.

ealdwin · January 2021

fred4 wrote: »

It's kind of hard to argue for buffing a skill that is already BIS for about half the mag-based PvP builds out there. The comparison with Forward Momentum is fair, though. Then again Rally / Forward Momentum are also outliers that are extremely BIS for many builds. Perhaps Rally more so than Forward Momentum, I guess.

If there is one thing I disagree with is Minor Force not being that useful. Malacath is only one option. Acuity is another and there are naturally high crit classes (templar, nightblade) and a race (Khajiit) that benefit. Depends on your perspective. I play in CP, thus more likely to build for crit, even without Acuity.

I definitely see your point regarding high-critical classes and builds where Minor Force would certainly be more useful. I certainly don't think it's not that useful. Rather that its benefit is not as widely useful as the Major Brutality from FM, which seems to be used on most Stamina Builds regardless of class and can be useful with or without Malacath's. Mainly, what I was trying to get at was that the fear in the Developer's Notes from that patch seem like a bit of a stretch.

And, yeah, the tricky part about asking for a buff for RAT in particular, is that it is currently BIS for about half of the Mag Builds in PVP. But then again, only 3 mag-specs in game have an in-class alternative to RAT, and only one of those has an argument for being better than it. Which, perhaps is an argument that those skills need looked at more.

Sergykid wrote: »

I don't mind increasing the snare immunity timer, but the speed buff should be removed then. Forward Momentum and Protective Plate do not give Major Expedition, Race Against Time to be brought on 4 sec timer would need to drop the speed buff (which would be fine as an abilities standard).

As fred4 mentioned previously, removing the speed buff would kill this ability. If increasing the duration of the snare/immobilization immunity would make it more powerful than it should be, then I'd rather see the cost of the ability slightly increased to match the utility it provides. Too often ZOS's response to powerful abilities is to remove elements from that ability, when they could have just balanced it via cost. (They've even stated in that letter around the time of the AOE tests, that rather than cooldowns they opted to balance abilities via sustain.)

fred4 · January 2021

I don't actually know what class skill even comes close to RAT in PvP. Speed plus snare removal is the winning combination and was IMO very much needed for magicka classes, especially with the gradual erosion of shields. Forget sorc in that equation. I'm talking about every other class. You wanted to be a solo or small-scale player on certain classes, notably magplar, Mist Form was basically a must. Now at least we have an alternative that doesn't involve vampire.

ZOS decision to NOT overload skills with some of the same buffs has resulted in many (class) skills languishing. Magblade had speed on Crippling Grasp and Double Take. Those used to be interesting alternatives, now there is only RAT. Speed is just that important in PvP.

I'm guessing you're thinking of Bird of Prey coming close, but with the nerf to Minor Berserk that's also pretty lacklustre now. I'm currently trying an Acuity build on my magden, so RAT it is and I feel better having the snare removal.

Wings have lost their fun factor for me, since they no longer reflect. I know the reasoning behind the change, but now we're in an odd situation with that skill. I think they are now even more effective against magblades who, let's face it, were the main class countered by wings. They have 6 seconds of guaranteed uptime now, making them much easier on sustain. I won't attack a flappy DK on magblade at all now, whereas before it was a question of timing your burst right. In terms of that other magicka class, which everything seems to be balanced around - magsorc - wings had already been nerfed to bits, basically only reflecting Frags and Overload.

Dracane · January 2021

Would be cool if protective scales got something that would encourage people to use it over dragonfire scales. As of now, almost no one uses protective scales. Not sure if a buff to 4 seconds immunity would do that.

Race against time however, is fine as it is.