Fakers and the need for speed.

FrancisCrawford · December 2020

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I thought the 1st word of this thread was something else when I first read it lol

That mucks some sense.

magnusthorek · December 2020

I was thinking about this situation a while back and I think ZOS has can remedy this by performing verifications over skills and computed numbers that tanks and healers should have before the queue (initial data) and after players teleport to the dungeon every time they change gear, comparing the new values against the initials and/or ZOS' predefined minimums.

Of course, I don't know all the intricacies of a good/bad/acceptable tank/healer neither have I thought it thoroughly but from the top of my mind, right now, Tanks could/should have at least two taunt skills, maybe one short and one long-ranged or two long-ranged (to take into account the new ice staff model); at least 25k resistance and 30k of HP; while Healers should have a Restoration Staff (you'd be surprised...) and at least one healing skill outside the Restoration skill line.

If during the run someone changes the gear making their numbers become considerably lower than while queueing, a confirmation box should/could pop-up saying, I don't know, <Nickname> (Role)'s gear changed significantly. Would you like to proceed with the current formation?

This and increasing the minimum CP for veteran DLC dungeons to... 400 perhaps should ease the pain considerably.

There's a negative side-effect, though: Guildmates/Friends won't be able to queue Specific Dungeons as 1 Tank/3 DD or reset consecutive runs quickly while farming achievements or motifs as these checks would probably prevent that, forcing them to disband, regroup and manually porting instead (unless an additional routine ALSO check grouped players against their own Guild Roster/Friends List/Previous Group Formation to try to understand they know each — which I think it's unnecessary and prone to false-positives).

Just an idea...

Blue_Radium · December 2020

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

To give some insight, people aren't doing it to be selfish or queue faster or to troll. They are trying to help, want you to clear the content efficiently, and are doing what they think will cause that. The general thought process:

Dedicated tanks are useless for 50%-ish of veteran group content, and dedicated healers are only useful for veteran trials. If someone is playing a true tank or a true healer in a 4 man normal, you can more-or-less guarantee they aren't all that skilled at the game yet. It's most often a crutch for newer players who haven't learned to DPS, so they are "bad" tanks and healers, but even amazing highly skilled tanks and healers would be dead weight. I'm doing other players a service, stepping in with good DPS, and ensuring the team is successful by blocking dead weight. Everyone crosses a threshold where they realize just how silly it is to have a tank and healer in anything normal/most things vet. Worse case scenario, I teach my team how ESO really works and help them grow.

But yeah, oftentimes this isn't how it's received by people. It's just mismatched opinions on how to best achieve goals. Both sides think their way is better, and the other is self-sabotaging. Hope this helps with empathizing/understanding why people act this way.

lardvader · December 2020

It's the crystals yes. I don't mind fake roles in most normals as long as they stick with the group. If they run and try to solo I vote kick.

Inklings · December 2020

After thousands of dungeon runs i have NEVER once had anyone ignore me or tell me "no" after stating at the start of a dungeon that:

- I'm on quest
- Need all bosses
- After X gear it drops from side boss.

Bottom line is there is no one right way to run a dungeon. In fact there is only one common goal all 4 people who use that group finder share and its the completion of that dungeons. Anything past that goal should be stated by the person who needs it. Communication goes a long way. If you state what you need from the start of the dungeon, the larger majority of speed runners will be more then glad to take an extra 2 minutes to make sure ya get what ya need.

Sure there will always be a small exception to this but i know for a fact the reason why people have repetitive issues with this is that they think their way is the right way to run a dungeon and don't communicate NICELY with their pugs. Fix those two things and your experiences will be much more enjoyable in dungeons.

KaGaOri · December 2020

I'm fine with speedruns, but hate the speedy group-ditcher with passion. Was in runs (including vet) where even while no one was low level and everyone genuinely tried to keep up, this one guy just took off and disappeared in distance, soloing at least one boss no one else could loot after. My magsorc is build for high damage, not speed - has limited stamina supply and once it's depleated just can't sprint anymore and gets crowd controlled by mobs runner agroed.

Have created second toon couple days back - a warden healer. Can easily "roll with the punches" on 750 cp magsorc in normals, if with bit of annoyance while paired with some rude / selfish players. Playing lvl twenty-something magden made dungeons scarry again. Still learning rotation / new class / new role + trying to grab skill point for dungeon quest and then someone just takes off and soloes everything. Like, what the <snip>, man? And yes, I'm aware "healers are not needed in base game normals", but can hardly jump straight into end game content while never / hardly ever healing group before, now can I?

hexentb16_ESO · December 2020

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

They don't solo because there's a bonus for using the dungeon finder. 10 transmute shards is the most notable. Since you can get those 10 shards once per character per day daily dungeon speed running is probably the fastest way to get them.

What we need is an 810 only option in the dungeon finder. It wouldn't totally fix the problem but it would really help.

Icy_Waffles · December 2020

You chose to use the queue. You get what you get. Normal dungeons are for new players, leveling up, farming, and transmute crystals.

MisterBigglesworth · December 2020

I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes "fake tanking"?
Am I taunting every boss and most of the mobs? Yes.
Am I keeping myself alive? Yes.
Am I doing the bare minimum at least 30% of the group's damage? Yes.

But I'm not using a Frost Staff or 1H/S

I'm running ahead and sometimes everything's dead before everyone else gets there, but I'm generally fine waiting on people doing their quests. So I'm wondering how much of a problem is this? And if that's not the problem, then what are the other "fakers" doing differently? Not taunting? Killing the boss before you have the quest to kill the boss?

Anotherone773 · December 2020

If we had real classes and real need for roles in those classes fakes wouldnt be able to muster through. People would kick them immediately because you couldnt do the dungeon without someone that could properly do that role.

Everest_Lionheart · December 2020

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes "fake tanking"?
Am I taunting every boss and most of the mobs? Yes.
Am I keeping myself alive? Yes.
Am I doing the bare minimum at least 30% of the group's damage? Yes.

But I'm not using a Frost Staff or 1H/S

I'm running ahead and sometimes everything's dead before everyone else gets there, but I'm generally fine waiting on people doing their quests. So I'm wondering how much of a problem is this? And if that's not the problem, then what are the other "fakers" doing differently? Not taunting? Killing the boss before you have the quest to kill the boss?

In normal content it doesn’t really matter all that much. Queuing as “fake” to jump the line sadly is what many people have to resort to in order to get a reasonable queue time.

Queueing as a fake on vet however eventually most fakers will get exposed. Dying to one shots on a side boss or excessive need to use self heals on a large pull is usually a dead giveaway.

Those issues are different than what the OP is really getting at here which are speed runners which enter the dungeon and sometimes depending on how long your load screen is today can be 2 add pulls in by the time you land. Of course random queue being what it is sometimes you end up landing in a dungeon like Maarselok or MoS where even a speedrun can take forever even on normal because those dungeons go on forever and people just bail even in the normal queue. In those cases we are speeding ahead because none of us had all day to be in a dungeon and if you queued for your proper role like me you probably already waited 15 minutes or more to get in. They should probably tier transmute rewards for those of us unlucky enough to get DLC on 4/5 characters per day. But that’s another rant for another time.

Jeremy · December 2020

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

I don't like it either. But its become prevalent in modern MMORPGs. It's even worse in some other games (like FInal Fantasy 14) where it happens 99% of the time.

The problem is they don't make the regular pulls inside dungeons hit hard enough so they don't require any strategy. So players can just run through them and treat them like "trash" - which is literally what they call them these days. MMORPGs generally have regressed in terms of gameplay. There was a time when even on regular pulls you needed strategy... tanks to take the brunt, healers to keep people alive and support classes to "CC" the mobs. But now an days the biggest concern is just rounding up enough of them to make the run as fast as possible. It's pretty lame.

Not lame, call it casual.

I don't think casual is the right word. But never mind that.

Who is this person in your Gif? Because that is probably one of the most devious looking people I have ever seen. haha

ZaroktheImmortal · December 2020

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

Urgh tell me about it. I've had so many groups leave whole mobs of enemies trailing behind at that point I stand back and clap and let them do the whole dungeon themselves since they think they're so uber cool then they get pissy cause I'm not helping.

stefj68 · December 2020

what do you expect from a random group...
their was an undaunted event, people were queing only for last boss
and well 10 extra transmute if it was a random one
so ya... you get left behind with your quest... and end up with no final loot boss or having to redo the quest...
been there, happend to me 2-3 times
and i just s... it up!

Minyassa · December 2020

When I'm trying to level a newbie with random normals and I'm on at a weird time of day so my guildies aren't available, I will occasionally gamble with trying a pug. I am always prepared for speed runners, but the moment I am loaded into the dungeon I say in group "Hi! I need the quest here, is that okay?" I've had groups say "okay np," and every time that happened it was me and some other group member that needed the quest. I've had groups say "would rather speed run" and I had to just accept that I wasn't going to get the full xp for that random normal that day. And I've had groups that literally kicked me for ASKING if it was okay to do the quest. Several of them. I always use that exact greeting phrase (I say "hi" even if I don't need the quest). If people are inclined to be jerks, they will be jerks no matter how polite you are. It is just a crapshoot with pugs, with emphasis on the "crap" part because the people who actually like other people are more inclined to be grouping with friends or at the very least acquaintances, and the people who cannot get along with anyone and can't stay in a guild or make friends have no choice but to pug. So you just have to adjust your expectations accordingly. Pugs are the resort of those who lack either time or any interest in being friendly and you never know which you're going to get.

spartaxoxo · December 2020

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes "fake tanking"?
Am I taunting every boss and most of the mobs? Yes.
Am I keeping myself alive? Yes.
Am I doing the bare minimum at least 30% of the group's damage? Yes.

But I'm not using a Frost Staff or 1H/S

I'm running ahead and sometimes everything's dead before everyone else gets there, but I'm generally fine waiting on people doing their quests. So I'm wondering how much of a problem is this? And if that's not the problem, then what are the other "fakers" doing differently? Not taunting? Killing the boss before you have the quest to kill the boss?

@MisterBigglesworth

Fake is when they refuse to taunt and don't even have the dps to hold aggro that way. Just play as a dps and make someone who actually queued as dps and waited in line tank instead.

mairwen85 · December 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

I don't like it either. But its become prevalent in modern MMORPGs. It's even worse in some other games (like FInal Fantasy 14) where it happens 99% of the time.

The problem is they don't make the regular pulls inside dungeons hit hard enough so they don't require any strategy. So players can just run through them and treat them like "trash" - which is literally what they call them these days. MMORPGs generally have regressed in terms of gameplay. There was a time when even on regular pulls you needed strategy... tanks to take the brunt, healers to keep people alive and support classes to "CC" the mobs. But now an days the biggest concern is just rounding up enough of them to make the run as fast as possible. It's pretty lame.

Not lame, call it casual.

I don't think casual is the right word. But never mind that.

Who is this person in your Gif? Because that is probably one of the most devious looking people I have ever seen. haha

That is Tom Ellis, the sexiest Welshman alive, yum! He's Lucifer in that gif.

zvavi · December 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

I don't like it either. But its become prevalent in modern MMORPGs. It's even worse in some other games (like FInal Fantasy 14) where it happens 99% of the time.

The problem is they don't make the regular pulls inside dungeons hit hard enough so they don't require any strategy. So players can just run through them and treat them like "trash" - which is literally what they call them these days. MMORPGs generally have regressed in terms of gameplay. There was a time when even on regular pulls you needed strategy... tanks to take the brunt, healers to keep people alive and support classes to "CC" the mobs. But now an days the biggest concern is just rounding up enough of them to make the run as fast as possible. It's pretty lame.

Not lame, call it casual.

I don't think casual is the right word. But never mind that.

Who is this person in your Gif? Because that is probably one of the most devious looking people I have ever seen. haha

Tom Ellis, he is playing Lucifer in the TV show, Lucifer. So they tried to make him look devilish.

Brrrofski · December 2020

I do this all the time.

Why? Because I'm doing a random normal for the xp to level up a skill or skill lines. A lot of players do this. Sometimes for the transmute gems.

To be fair, I actually have a sword or board or resto staff and at least taunt the main boss or throw some heals. But I mostly just do damage.

Iccotak · December 2020

Blue_Radium wrote: »

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

It seems like this has been an issue that's only become worse this month.

Pretty much every run for the last few weeks, i've had that one person with the copy/paste uber build in the normal dungeons. The first thing they do is just take off, running through groups, ignoring enemies, trying to solo bosses, etc, all while queued as tanks or healers. I get that things aren't balanced in this game, and i admire people who can build their own insane builds, that's legitimately cool. The problem here tends to be these people just... aren't good at it. I've seen several people do this and getting wiped out, run passed enemies who then turn and run for other teammates (often blocking passageways), being rude or jerks verbally, skipping entire areas to speedrun even harder, not giving people enough time to loot, and just kind of ruining the fun for others.

Has anyone else been seeing this? What's going on and why has it become so prevalent?

Why not just *actually* solo it? Why not queue for Vet dungeons?

Is there just a shortage of players rolling tanks and healers or a general consensus as to why? I'm legitimately curious as to what's happening here or if anything is going to be done to fix the issues causing this.

To give some insight, people aren't doing it to be selfish or queue faster or to troll. They are trying to help, want you to clear the content efficiently, and are doing what they think will cause that. The general thought process:

Dedicated tanks are useless for 50%-ish of veteran group content, and dedicated healers are only useful for veteran trials. If someone is playing a true tank or a true healer in a 4 man normal, you can more-or-less guarantee they aren't all that skilled at the game yet. It's most often a crutch for newer players who haven't learned to DPS, so they are "bad" tanks and healers, but even amazing highly skilled tanks and healers would be dead weight. I'm doing other players a service, stepping in with good DPS, and ensuring the team is successful by blocking dead weight. Everyone crosses a threshold where they realize just how silly it is to have a tank and healer in anything normal/most things vet. Worse case scenario, I teach my team how ESO really works and help them grow.

But yeah, oftentimes this isn't how it's received by people. It's just mismatched opinions on how to best achieve goals. Both sides think their way is better, and the other is self-sabotaging. Hope this helps with empathizing/understanding why people act this way.

I play a dedicated tank in that dungeons because it's my job to make sure all enemies - not just the bosses - keep their attention on me. I meet plenty of glass cannons and also have to make sure the healer stays alive.

Keeping all attention on me saves my teammates from the boss and ads. I debuff the bad guys and buff the good guys. This helps players deal more damage. This can also speed things up because I crowd control them in one group for aoe.

Now for easier content do I switch my build up a little? Yeah - I will gear things a little so I can do more damage but for Vet dungeons I definitely am a dedicated tank because I cannot predict the builds of my teammates and what kind of damage they can take. So it's my job to take as much of the damage as I can so then my team can focus on their jobs.

All too often I hear stories of people who queue as tanks but are really dps focused and don't really keep up on the role they chose. So I endeavor to be a good tank.

validifyedneb18_ESO · December 2020

Vet dungeons take longer, and the group finder adds 5000 max health buff to all players which on many builds makes soloing actually viable (ie BG builds that rely on the 5000 extra in bgs likewise)

Just to answer your questions about why they don't solo or do vet

Snowy_Wyndra_Karn · December 2020

I HATE the speed racers... and I am almost max CP... well, I've been playing for 4 years and would be max CP but transferred from console to PC about 6 months ago.

I hate teleporting into a dungeon and before you even have the chance to say "hello" you notice 2 or 3 players have just taken off and are nowhere to be found on your mini-map.

If this happens I just end up leaving but the crappy thing is... I get penalised!

It sucks!!!

There are dungeons I could solo as well, but I don't because the reason for queuing in a group finder is... I don't know, so you can work as a group???

I called someone out on this recently and they explained that, yes they could solo but they don't because with 4 other players there is 4 x the chance of getting the item you need. I understand this and can appreciate it, but other than this isolated time, I have had no one ask me for a specific item as they have raced through.

I HATE SPEED-RACERS!!!

Massive_Stain · December 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should handle this kind of scum, with increasingly longer groupfinder bans(starting with one week).

imagine saying this and believing it

WraithShadow13 · January 2021

Blue_Radium wrote: »

To give some insight, people aren't doing it to be selfish or queue faster or to troll. They are trying to help, want you to clear the content efficiently, and are doing what they think will cause that. The general thought process:

Not once, has this been the case for me. Every time they take off and just go, there is no concern for the group until they die and even then, it's only waiting for the group to catch up. I've actually seen a few players take off again, leaving the rest of the group to fight what killed them as they head for their next spot. More annoyingly, especially while leveling new characters, they take off and leave entire tunnels packed with too many enemies for the lower level players to get through. Several times, i've gone back to help clear out the groups just to get another player. IF they were actually holding aggro and not just setting off every enemy as they ran away, or if they were killing everything they triggered, it honestly wouldn't be as big of an issue. Luckily, there aren't many missions that lock you out if someone kills a target before you get there (i think tempest is the only place i've had this happen) but anyone who actually cared about the rest of the team, efficiency, or even those who outright carried the team, have never just taken off or ignored the rest of the team when asked to stop.

It's not just fake tanks either, though that's more common, but healers as well, which is an issue for lower level players.

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes "fake tanking"?
Am I taunting every boss and most of the mobs? Yes.
Am I keeping myself alive? Yes.
Am I doing the bare minimum at least 30% of the group's damage? Yes.

But I'm not using a Frost Staff or 1H/S

I'm running ahead and sometimes everything's dead before everyone else gets there, but I'm generally fine waiting on people doing their quests. So I'm wondering how much of a problem is this? And if that's not the problem, then what are the other "fakers" doing differently? Not taunting? Killing the boss before you have the quest to kill the boss?

You might be doing this but a lot of others aren't. I've even seen those players skipping entire areas, leaving the new players to fend for themselves. In a lot of cases, they're doing damage and they're healing themselves but rarely do i see them do all of what you listed. I'm still catching them dying due to getting too far ahead and being mobbed to death, seeing them just out right run, not killing ANYthing as they go, attacking bosses but having no dps (in some cases locking people out of the fight). I don't know if that's a bug or not but they start the fight and if it's beyond a door, the rest of the group can't interact with the door because they're in combat. I think i've only been locked out of looting twice, because they DID manage to kill the boss before we got there, in which case, yeah, they were immediately booted by the team. In a lot of cases, the healer i just level ended up tanking because the tank couldn't taunt and wasn't even bothering.

In the case of this argument, though, fake tanking is just being queued to tank without being a tank or tanky or having the skills dps wise to negate the tanks role.

Again, if they were holding the aggro, if they were killing things so it wasn't an issue, if they weren't ditching the party or causing issues for the other players on the team, it wouldn't be an issue but that's not the case in 95% of my runs since the change.

I can understand a low level healer or tank, or someone who is just starting out and trying to learn that role, but in this case, it's just someone with a copy/paste build (usually) that tries to slide by because they think they can kill everything before it kills them.... even when they can't.

If they had the skills to pull it off or if it weren't causing problems for the rest of the team, i wouldn't care beyond the slight annoyance but it's problematic for low-level characters, new players, and people actually trying to enjoy the run.