Ring of the Pale Order confuses my perception

hexnotic · December 2020

Hey all! Just wanted to post about my experience today to see if anyone else feels the same. If you are a fellow healer main who enjoys queuing as a pure healer occasionally for 4 man content then we should probably start a support group where we can talk amongst each other about how uneeded we are...

I queued with some people that I have done plenty of 4 man's with... One of the dps was wearing the ring of the pale order for all 3 vet pledge dungeons, and I had no idea how much it was going to bother me! I'm normally a patient and easy going teammate that just likes to heal my ass off honestly, but everytime the specific dps' health would drop low I'd be trying to burst them up and then realize that I'm wasting resources by doing so.

As a healer main who has been healing her ass off for a few years I am programmed to burst heal when I see that little blue health bar drop low. I don't pay attention to what my team's characters look like, I only care about their blue health bar. I experience brief euphoria when I see their health bars move like sound bars.

So because of how I am hard wired in my role after playing it for literally years I felt that my perception was being deceived by this ring of the pale order. I have no interests in trying to police what other people wear, but it was so jarring of an experience for me. There was plenty of times where the dps died because they had on the ring, where as if I could heal them they wouldn't have died. The teammate knows that I main heals, I've healed them in DLC hms etc, I even asked them if they were wearing it and they said "yes"...

My main complaint about the ring is that skills like breath of life, and radiating regeneration still hit the teammate who is wearing the ring... Even though the effect gets wasted entirely. That seems very unfair.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy for all of the solo players out there who can use this ring now. I am even happy for the competent DDs and tanks who get stuck with a not so competent healer.

I know that people have said hell no to the ring since day 1 on pts, but I have never had a bad experience until now and it really disoriented how I've been playing the game for many moons. As a healer main I feel lost and unsure of how to adapt to this item. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Jaimeh · December 2020

I've only worn it so far for solo stuff, I don't see the reason for wearing this when running with a dedicated healer, and missing out on a monster set.

VampireLordLover99 · December 2020

This isn't an issue with just ring of the pale order. It stems all the way from the BS they're trying to do with vampire. Honestly, this whole 'can't be healed in a group' thing should NOT be in this game nor tied to an item, subclass, or otherwise.

That said, they could at least have the player's healthbar have a visual indicator as to when they're shutting themselves off from healing. Also thought it'd be cool if the HP bar was shrouded in some vampiric black/red mist or if it had a bat symbol on it that greyed the whole thing out.

I've also found that one shield resto staff ability works very nicely when running with someone who is a vamp/pale order user.

Chyro · December 2020

"Hello party, if you don't mind I'd really appreciate it if you could not wear your ring(s) of the pale order - I'd really like to be able to heal you and keep you alive. Of course, it's also fine if you want to keep them on. - your healer"

... just copy that before you go dungeon running, and just post it in chat when you notice someone using the ring. Maybe they won't take it off, maybe they will. Might be worth a try though ^^

Just as a suggestion

Vevvev · December 2020

As a healer, DPS, and tank who has experimented with this ring and vampire extensively here is what you do.

Apply life steal to everything as healing via life steal no longer counts as healing coming from you but from the person doing the damage.

Synergies everywhere!!! Abilities like Energy Orb are very useful for bursting a vampire or Ring bearer up.

Boost their DPS! The more damage a person using the Ring of the Pale Order does the more they heal.

If you're using Spell Power Cure try to get ahold of the Olorime set instead as it's application of the Major Courage buff doesn't rely on actually doing any healing.

These are things I've learned over the months of testing. Hope they help.

Jeremy · December 2020

hexnotic wrote: »

Hey all! Just wanted to post about my experience today to see if anyone else feels the same. If you are a fellow healer main who enjoys queuing as a pure healer occasionally for 4 man content then we should probably start a support group where we can talk amongst each other about how uneeded we are...

I queued with some people that I have done plenty of 4 man's with... One of the dps was wearing the ring of the pale order for all 3 vet pledge dungeons, and I had no idea how much it was going to bother me! I'm normally a patient and easy going teammate that just likes to heal my ass off honestly, but everytime the specific dps' health would drop low I'd be trying to burst them up and then realize that I'm wasting resources by doing so.

As a healer main who has been healing her ass off for a few years I am programmed to burst heal when I see that little blue health bar drop low. I don't pay attention to what my team's characters look like, I only care about their blue health bar. I experience brief euphoria when I see their health bars move like sound bars.

So because of how I am hard wired in my role after playing it for literally years I felt that my perception was being deceived by this ring of the pale order. I have no interests in trying to police what other people wear, but it was so jarring of an experience for me. There was plenty of times where the dps died because they had on the ring, where as if I could heal them they wouldn't have died. The teammate knows that I main heals, I've healed them in DLC hms etc, I even asked them if they were wearing it and they said "yes"...

My main complaint about the ring is that skills like breath of life, and radiating regeneration still hit the teammate who is wearing the ring... Even though the effect gets wasted entirely. That seems very unfair.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy for all of the solo players out there who can use this ring now. I am even happy for the competent DDs and tanks who get stuck with a not so competent healer.

I know that people have said hell no to the ring since day 1 on pts, but I have never had a bad experience until now and it really disoriented how I've been playing the game for many moons. As a healer main I feel lost and unsure of how to adapt to this item. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

They should have definitely programmed healing spells not to prioritize targets with the ring on. This seems like an obvious point.

This game favors DPS, Hexnotic. It always has and likely always will. Issues that relate to Tanks and Healers seldom get taken seriously and we usually have to wait years or forever for anything to be done about them.

Jeremy · December 2020

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

This isn't an issue with just ring of the pale order. It stems all the way from the BS they're trying to do with vampire. Honestly, this whole 'can't be healed in a group' thing should NOT be in this game nor tied to an item, subclass, or otherwise.

That said, they could at least have the player's healthbar have a visual indicator as to when they're shutting themselves off from healing. Also thought it'd be cool if the HP bar was shrouded in some vampiric black/red mist or if it had a bat symbol on it that greyed the whole thing out.

I've also found that one shield resto staff ability works very nicely when running with someone who is a vamp/pale order user.

That's a good idea. If you are wearing the ring it should have a visual indicator and lock that player out from distracting the healer. I rarely play healer these days, but what the OP describes sounds extremely annoying.

ShawnLaRock · December 2020

Even just last night in J Dub’s stream we were joking about all 12 group members in a Trial wearing Pale Order now... and I think it was like 4-6 of them actually were! It’s definitely changed the dynamic of how roles interrelate.

S.

Araneae6537 · December 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

As a healer, DPS, and tank who has experimented with this ring and vampire extensively here is what you do.

Apply life steal to everything as healing via life steal no longer counts as healing coming from you but from the person doing the damage.

Synergies everywhere!!! Abilities like Energy Orb are very useful for bursting a vampire or Ring bearer up.

Boost their DPS! The more damage a person using the Ring of the Pale Order does the more they heal.

If you're using Spell Power Cure try to get ahold of the Olorime set instead as it's application of the Major Courage buff doesn't rely on actually doing any healing.

These are things I've learned over the months of testing. Hope they help.

Those are all good suggestions and definitely a healer should focus on buffing group damage and resources as well as their ability to heal! But I also hear what OP is saying about what makes the role enjoyable and fulfilling: We enjoy saving people or making that difference in the fight in a way that is tangible! The most fun I’ve had recently as a healer was doing the Thorn Castle dungeon just me and one player who was both tank and DPS (and consequently not very tanky). The other scenario is enabling a group to get through damage they otherwise couldn’t and to my knowledge, that isn’t a thing in ESO (maybe an exception in CoA1 but even the fire is mostly mitigated by CP). In GW2, there were places I could say, “Stack and burn and trust your healer,” enabling max DPS and skipping some mechanics and wow, that was a good feeling!

Back to the ring in question, I definitely agree that it should hide or otherwise clearly indicate on the player’s health bar! I need to react when someone’s health drops — I already have to take an extra ms to make sure my staff actually does swap when I intend and not like a moment later and I don’t need to worry about why an attempt to heal has failed.

Thankfully, I’ve not yet run into this in a dungeon, but the changes this year to healing have been discouraging, making healers niche or viewed as dispensable training wheels.

I’ve been gradually moving focus to DPS and tank characters as a result.

jaws343 · December 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

This isn't an issue with just ring of the pale order. It stems all the way from the BS they're trying to do with vampire. Honestly, this whole 'can't be healed in a group' thing should NOT be in this game nor tied to an item, subclass, or otherwise.

That said, they could at least have the player's healthbar have a visual indicator as to when they're shutting themselves off from healing. Also thought it'd be cool if the HP bar was shrouded in some vampiric black/red mist or if it had a bat symbol on it that greyed the whole thing out.

I've also found that one shield resto staff ability works very nicely when running with someone who is a vamp/pale order user.

That's a good idea. If you are wearing the ring it should have a visual indicator and lock that player out from distracting the healer. I rarely play healer these days, but what the OP describes sounds extremely annoying.

I think I was originally on board with an indicator but as I've played with the ring I am more hesitant about that.

The problem I see is that the indicator will be used as a reason to kick otherwise competent dps before the dungeon run even begins. And it dungeons that mostly have one shot mechanics, pale order is more than enough to heal you through pretty much all incoming damage. There are a few fights that are exceptions but not many.

It also opens up blaming dps for wearing the ring when the tank can't keep a hold of the boss or add that has one shot mechanics. There's just too much potential to use the indicator as an exclusion point rather than a priority marker.

Ratzkifal · December 2020

I am actually wearing that thing on my healer. "Can't be healed by anyone but yourself" is no drawback if you are the one doing the healing for the group.
It's kind of a meme build but for certain content it works really well. You are basically another DD but you slot radiating regeneration and Simmering Frenzy. You get crazy high spell damage, especially if you are running Vampire Lord at stage 4 and that spell damage increases your group healing but most importantly your self healing too.

Radiance · December 2020

I started off only healing for several years but also slowly began feeling useless long before the Pale Order. So I branched out to Tanking bc it's basically just healing yourself and taunting and it helped me get somewhat familiar with DPS. My biggest problem was DPS, I have my moments when I shine but I'm just not that great at it in terms of being a Top DPS.

I think there is a cognitive disconnect for some people that focus on Support roles that focus solely on other players. Tank is a support role bc you have to protect your group but do so indirectly by Taunting Mobs so the focus is a bit split but you're still not expected to perform outrageous amounts of Damage. Tanking is a bridge for DPS for me personally. DPS is a somewhat selfish role bc your main focus is KILL so you tend to go into this feral mindset.

I think the only way to relieve this feeling is to branch out and try other roles so you can get their perspective and you will take things less personally and learn to adapt to a more fluid role. There are some groups you may need to focus heal but there are others that need you to do some DPS with light healing on the side. The best players don't really need healers these days except in extreme Big daddy boss scenarios.

renne · December 2020

As a DPS I was in Castle Thorn one time where the other DPS was wearing the ring and I don't think the healer realised at first because they asked why they couldn't heal the other DPS. Who kept dying and treated it like it was a joke when the healer asked them to take it off. As the other DPS it was REALLY annoying.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2020

I get the complaint, but someone should probably point out that as a healer in ESO, the other players health bars are a very small portion of your job. Don't get me wrong, I understand the complaint, but this is more about the curtesy of your group members than the item in question.

MirandaSharp · December 2020

hexnotic wrote: »

So because of how I am hard wired in my role after playing it for literally years I felt that my perception was being deceived by this ring of the pale order. I have no interests in trying to police what other people wear, but it was so jarring of an experience for me. There was plenty of times where the dps died because they had on the ring, where as if I could heal them they wouldn't have died. The teammate knows that I main heals, I've healed them in DLC hms etc, I even asked them if they were wearing it and they said "yes"...

They should make it restricted to solo play. Suggested tooltip text:

"When not in group yadiyadiyada.."

Now using it in group is no different from solo, while it's designed to be a niche solo play item...
There's also no cooldown, but that's a discussion for after they restrict it to "while not in group".

MirandaSharp · December 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

That's a good idea. If you are wearing the ring it should have a visual indicator and lock that player out from distracting the healer. I rarely play healer these days, but what the OP describes sounds extremely annoying.

-Yes, that's the least they can do if they want to allow this in group content. Make the health bar glowing red or something? Though I think most healers on PC use mods to get better health/stamina/magicka bars in the UI... Then at least open the API to the mod community so they can do a check on whether player is "healable" or not...

MikaND · December 2020

We made a rule, dungeon with full heal, ring forbidden. Dungeon with 3 DD's, ring can be considered, though if one main heal plays dd the ring bearing dd might live with the fact the heal ignores him in the next trial because trained ignoring of him in dungeons.

hexnotic · December 2020

Thanks for the all of the responses! I don't really disagree with anyone here, and I'm happy that some people think it's worth discussing! I DPS as well, have 3 DD characters that I've spent time on. I've always had a love for all aspects that healing can offer, and my place as a pure healer will mostly be in raids. At the same time I do prefer four man, and I get it about healers not being needed for four man.

It was just a lot of fun seeing blue health bars go up and down, but learning the necromancer also seems like fun so I'll just do that for now on other roles. =p

Vevvev wrote: »

As a healer, DPS, and tank who has experimented with this ring and vampire extensively here is what you do.

Apply life steal to everything as healing via life steal no longer counts as healing coming from you but from the person doing the damage.

Synergies everywhere!!! Abilities like Energy Orb are very useful for bursting a vampire or Ring bearer up.

Boost their DPS! The more damage a person using the Ring of the Pale Order does the more they heal.

If you're using Spell Power Cure try to get ahold of the Olorime set instead as it's application of the Major Courage buff doesn't rely on actually doing any healing.

These are things I've learned over the months of testing. Hope they help.

Also this person is a true genius

Araneae6537 · December 2020

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

That's a good idea. If you are wearing the ring it should have a visual indicator and lock that player out from distracting the healer. I rarely play healer these days, but what the OP describes sounds extremely annoying.

-Yes, that's the least they can do if they want to allow this in group content. Make the health bar glowing red or something? Though I think most healers on PC use mods to get better health/stamina/magicka bars in the UI... Then at least open the API to the mod community so they can do a check on whether player is "healable" or not...

Rather dark than glowing red — don’t call my attention to it as a healer! I think the health bar of non-healable players should be darkened or made see-through.

Minyassa · December 2020

I did my first vet dungeon a few days ago with a new build that uses that ring, and I honestly didn't think about it going in. I died a few times during a very tough boss that we had to think how to readjust ourselves to work with, and one of the things was when I mentioned I had the ring on the healer was relieved to know it wasn't her healing skills failing that I kept dying on them. I took it off and replaced it with the only other ring I had with me, the Wild Hunt, and thought that would kill me more, but damned if it didn't keep me ahead of targeted AOEs and let me get to mechanical objectives quicker, and she kept me alive instead of myself. Having learned this D'OH the hard way, I hopefully will not forget it and next time I group up with that toon I will switch out the ring right away. It's great for solo stuff, and I figure that's what it is made for. In a group, a healer can do WAY better.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail · December 2020

It is a reflection on the group member that they're missing a monster set bonus, which I think we all would feel the pain of, just to be able to self heal.

That alone is their punishment, and as this isn't widespread for obvious reasons, sorry you've encountered it this time and will encounter moving forward, but what the ring offers people outside group content is a much greater boon to the game's offering, than if it weren't in.

Unless you're prepared to go around and help them solo dungeons, or Craglorn, or whatever else they struggle with personally, then this ring has a purpose - one with a cost to the wearer, and that is no monster set.

ccfeeling · December 2020

ZOS , please GIVE pale a special VISUAL effect , just like EBON , ALKOSH !

We have to know who is running PALE !

hexnotic · December 2020

I guess certain DDs that insist on wearing the ring can't benefit from buffs that proc off of heals like SPC, and Symphony. I am not entirely sure about this but a DD wearing the ring could also mess with the uptimes of Hollowfang and Hiti's since they both need a target to heal in order to proc. Thanks I guess

Muttsmutt · December 2020

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

they could at least have the player's healthbar have a visual indicator as to when they're shutting themselves off from healing

that would be nice. then there's no need to say "please god please use your mana to do some damage instead of spamming springs on me" to healers who may or may not even read that.

Vevvev · December 2020

ccfeeling wrote: »

ZOS , please GIVE pale a special VISUAL effect , just like EBON , ALKOSH !

We have to know who is running PALE !

No, just have smart heals no longer prioritize them, have the health glazed over like the guards showing it can't be tampered with, and voila....

If you made it a visual glowing effect it'd be obstructive and very annoying. I would call for that effect to be removed immediately.