do you find thievery rewarding?

Mix · December 2020

I love stealing! (in-game)

I think it would be amazing if ZoS added a "stickerbook" for all the treasures. Then we could link them anytime we wanted to (some are hilarious) and I just love collecting things. Every treasure has its own unique flavour text in the tooltip, so there is a treasure to link for almost every occasion. Someone complains they are cold, link [Malacath's Brass Arse Warmer]. Bored? [Jar of Centipedes]. Is their @name or character name Auriel? Ha! Got your [Auriel's Quiver]

Muttsmutt · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I might be the only player who thinks this way, but I find thievery shameful, dishonorful and almost the most disgraceful thing. No matter if it is a game or real life - I think the very wish to take someone's property is shameful. I've never been a member neither of the Thieves Guild nor of the Dark Brotherhood in any of the ES games and each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards. Still none of those options are provided as if the developers would have been supporting such actions. None of those thugs commit those crimes because they starve or have no means to live, or because they are forced to do it by the game quest mechanics (i.e. ordinary quests like the one that required to break into a Covenant spy's house during the EP Main Quest line) - their crimes are not the retaliation to the criminal social environment that forces them to do so. These players own lands, houses, money, weapons and titles, they are not the lowest classes of their local societies - they all do it because they want to do it, can do it, it brings them money and they like it.

I don't think that thievery should be depicted that way in the game. Yes, it is the part of this world, but I think it should have never been made that attractive to some players if not for the majority of them. Sinister desires should be fought, not encouraged, be it in a game (any game - video game, board game, chess, whatever) or IRL. At least allowing us to engage a thief or an assassin into a combat on sight without "invitation to duel" (a duel? With a thief?.. Are they serious?..) or to call the guards would be an adequate measure for those who have an overwhelming desire to steal and kill those who did nothing bad to them. It is my opinion only and no appeals to things like "Man, it's a video game, not the real life!" will change it - such appeals sound like an exuse to me, they legalize those sinister desires to those players only because unlikd IRL stealing in a video game brings no responsibility. No responsibility - no concern - pleasure. And since a sanction is the only thing that stops people from commiting a crime, an action viewed as illegal by the very rules of that fictional world (yes, to those who haven't understood it yet - I don't speak of those Elsweyr and Valenwood customs in this post), then.. I doubt we'll be able to find common grounds. Don't join the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood mates, don't be thugs - you are much better than this. None of you were born thieves and assassins and the sinister desire to act like that, it is just the product of the environment you live in that effects your consciousness, that makes it somehow attractive to you. Fight it !

holy *** this post was a wild ride! alright, let's try...

you've dissociated very far from the initial reason why thievery is morally wrong- taking away somebody's property. that somebody simply does not exist in a videogame. you are causing no causal harm to any entity capable of experiencing that harm. the majority of people are capable of realizing this, therefore even if irl they'd be very opposed to thievery- or murder for that matter, which you do all the time in videogames- in a game, their brains do not register the action as "stealing" or "murdering"; therefore the symbolic action of stealing or killing is simply not associated with anything from real life, there is nothing attractive to it. it's just a game mechanic that is associate with "winning" at the game.

Aigym_Hlervu · December 2020

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I might be the only player who thinks this way, but I find thievery shameful, dishonorful and almost the most disgraceful thing. No matter if it is a game or real life - I think the very wish to take someone's property is shameful. I've never been a member neither of the Thieves Guild nor of the Dark Brotherhood in any of the ES games and each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards. Still none of those options are provided as if the developers would have been supporting such actions. None of those thugs commit those crimes because they starve or have no means to live, or because they are forced to do it by the game quest mechanics (i.e. ordinary quests like the one that required to break into a Covenant spy's house during the EP Main Quest line) - their crimes are not the retaliation to the criminal social environment that forces them to do so. These players own lands, houses, money, weapons and titles, they are not the lowest classes of their local societies - they all do it because they want to do it, can do it, it brings them money and they like it.

I don't think that thievery should be depicted that way in the game. Yes, it is the part of this world, but I think it should have never been made that attractive to some players if not for the majority of them. Sinister desires should be fought, not encouraged, be it in a game (any game - video game, board game, chess, whatever) or IRL. At least allowing us to engage a thief or an assassin into a combat on sight without "invitation to duel" (a duel? With a thief?.. Are they serious?..) or to call the guards would be an adequate measure for those who have an overwhelming desire to steal and kill those who did nothing bad to them. It is my opinion only and no appeals to things like "Man, it's a video game, not the real life!" will change it - such appeals sound like an exuse to me, they legalize those sinister desires to those players only because unlikd IRL stealing in a video game brings no responsibility. No responsibility - no concern - pleasure. And since a sanction is the only thing that stops people from commiting a crime, an action viewed as illegal by the very rules of that fictional world (yes, to those who haven't understood it yet - I don't speak of those Elsweyr and Valenwood customs in this post), then.. I doubt we'll be able to find common grounds. Don't join the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood mates, don't be thugs - you are much better than this. None of you were born thieves and assassins and the sinister desire to act like that, it is just the product of the environment you live in that effects your consciousness, that makes it somehow attractive to you. Fight it !

holy *** this post was a wild ride! alright, let's try...

you've dissociated very far from the initial reason why thievery is morally wrong- taking away somebody's property. that somebody simply does not exist in a videogame. you are causing no causal harm to any entity capable of experiencing that harm. the majority of people are capable of realizing this, therefore even if irl they'd be very opposed to thievery- or murder for that matter, which you do all the time in videogames- in a game, their brains do not register the action as "stealing" or "murdering"; therefore the symbolic action of stealing or killing is simply not associated with anything from real life, there is nothing attractive to it. it's just a game mechanic that is associate with "winning" at the game.

Yes, you are absolutely right, the symbolic action of stealing or killing is not associated with anything from real life by those guys. Yes, those NPC do not exist IRL, and yes, the brains of those players do not register the criminal acts they perform as such. I agree with all of it. So what, what do you disagree with? Or it was just "I disagree because it's someone's else opinion, I don't like it and therefore I disagree!" thing? I say it again: I don't play that Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content, I don't steal from and don't kill innocents because these acts are considered to be ethically bad and criminal there, say, in Morrowind, as well as IRL. The views on it are equal both here and there. And I'm not a thug neither here nor there because unlike you I think that killing innocents and stealing from them is bad irrespectively of what exact harm such things cause. Period. If you were a Dunmer slaver who killed his slave there I'd say no word to you because slaves are not sentient beings at all there, slavery is absolutely ethical and protected by law thing there. But stealing and killing the free innocent NPC who walk around and are protected by law is unethical and law breaking. I say that these sinister desires to act like that should be innerly fought, that the criminal acts should be punished more severely in order to prevent them since it is considered to be as bad thing there as it is IRL. If the punishment for such actions would have been the permanent death of a character or the character level decrease, not so many players would have risked to commit those crimes. If you disagree with it - it is your right. Go on with your stealings and killings there. I only hope that I won't meet you there because I prefer not to have any mutual business with unpredictable people acting like that.

BXR_Lonestar · December 2020

Muttsmutt wrote: »

the thieving system was the first thing that distracted me from the main quest when i started playing- i actually found it exciting! though of course, as i leveled up and started discovering other fun things to do which felt less of a waste of time, i left the thievery behind.

i'd like to enjoy that part of the game again now; though i feel like it would be a waste of time, which wouldn't be fun for me.
if you find it rewarding- talk to me about why, maybe it'll get me more excited for it!

also, what zones do you find best to steal in?

It was fun for a time, but now, there are better ways to earn money. When I first started the game, I made all of my gold stealing from the ships docked at Davon's Watch, then traveling by ship to the harbor at Daggerfall, and then looting all of those ships. Hardly anyone around, so easy to pick/choose what you steal and the ones who are around are secluded so you can easily pickpocket them. This is how I paid for my first horse in the game and all my horse research! (Yes, you used to have to buy your first horse).

But now that I have access to guild traders and higher-end stuff, there's really no need to steal unless I WANT to. I use my PVP ganker to pickpocket in Vvardenfell sometimes to get motifs, but that is about all the stealing I do anymore.

Pixiepumpkin · December 2020

cocopuffs

Coatmagic · December 2020

i enjoy looting things; don't care if it's stealing or not BUT
i do find stabbing NPC's in the face cathartic xD

Tsar_Gekkou · December 2020

Kurat wrote: »

Shadow_CH wrote: »

I love it

You can make ~20k Gold a day (maxed selling slots, destroy the white items and sell green / blue). And you can find furnishings (e.g. hand mirrors in Elsweyr) or motifs (e.g. Telvanni, Hlaalu, Redoran in Vvardenfell) and many more.

If you use the ring of the wild hunt, you can move faster even when sneaking. Thats helps a lot

20k a day doesn't sound like worth it to me. How long does it take you to steal all that?

Takes me maybe an hour or so. I'm going for Black Market Mogul to get the dye. I run around Dhalmora because the crafting area has around 10 lockboxes inside, 2 right outside of it, and one in each of the nearby houses. I usually run a circuit around the area but i've been noticing people camping the ones in the crafting area once in a while, so I have to camp out with them to get at least half of the ones inside until they're done. I run a full stealth build so i'm completely invisible to guards and non-hostile npcs and can even rub up against them with a bounty and go unnoticed, but if they path directly into me while moving it'll pull me out of stealth sometimes for some odd reason.

It's not fun. I'm only doing it for the purple dye and that's it. 20K a day feels like crap, and I can't go through making multiple characters specifically to run around stealing until I hit my fence limit. I just wish they'd remove the daily fence limit. People are allowed to sell as many materials/recipes/plans/gear pieces for hundreds of thousands at once, but Zos is afraid that we'll make too much gold and wreck the economy by spending time pickpocekting stuff to vendor.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · December 2020

I find it financially rewarding. It's how I made my big bucks.

Kalik_Gold · December 2020

It's a game within the game, obviously he enjoys it. He has 6 Thieves...

majulook · December 2020

yes I have made millions doing thieving got the Black Market Mogul (Earn 1,000,000 gold by selling stolen goods to a Fence) on multiple characters,

SpiritofESO · December 2020

SeaGtGruff · December 2020

Kurat wrote: »

Shadow_CH wrote: »

I love it

You can make ~20k Gold a day (maxed selling slots, destroy the white items and sell green / blue). And you can find furnishings (e.g. hand mirrors in Elsweyr) or motifs (e.g. Telvanni, Hlaalu, Redoran in Vvardenfell) and many more.

If you use the ring of the wild hunt, you can move faster even when sneaking. Thats helps a lot

20k a day doesn't sound like worth it to me. How long does it take you to steal all that?

If you're thieving in a good location-- say, the docks and boats at Daggerfall-- you can steal and fence your daily limit pretty quickly. And if 20K is the per character amount, that's more than the per character amount you get from doing crafting writs. Note that I'm not including anything you get that can be sold for a lot of gold through guild traders.

I used to steal a lot each day as part of my daily gold making, but eventually got tired of it once I started doing crafting writs on all of my characters. For beginning players, though, thieving is a pretty good way to add to your daily gold making, as long as you spend at least 1 Skill Point to increase your daily fencing limit-- or for veteran players, too, as long as they don't find it too boring. And you can find some nice things for yourself, such as style mats, trait mats, treasure maps, motifs, etc. As long as you're going to use them yourself, there's no need to launder them.

Jaraal · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards.

So you are willing to commit a worse crime (murder) to punish a lesser crime (stealing). I believe your moral outrage is misplaced.

SpiritofESO wrote: »

I know exactly how much you can make and it ain't "millions."

You need to change the word "you" to the word "I" to make this an accurate statement.

rpa · December 2020

Worth it for start but not OP. IMO single most useful crime related thing is the Shadow Rider passive from DB.
Also pick, pick, stab. In case of guards, no stab.

Aigym_Hlervu · December 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards.

So you are willing to commit a worse crime (murder) to punish a lesser crime (stealing). I believe your moral outrage is misplaced.

No, no crime for a crime, of course. I completed the Seal of Three quest in Deshaan, thus Almalexia named me a Hand of Almalexia after saving her High Fane in Mournhold, thus I became an Ordinator. Then I fought much in PvP and obtained a full set of the Militant Ordinator Motif 49 armor. Then I perfromed a big work to pick up correct dyes and to dye it right and finally wrote A Guide to Join the Ordinators Faction in ESO to help all those who wish to play an Ordinator too. As it is written in the Guide to Liturgical Vestments by High Ordinator Vermethys - "At this point, any action of the Ordinator is protected by divine mandate. So long as she wears the mask, the Ordinator is considered a faultless hand of the Three, and is authorized to commit any martial action deemed necessary to protect the True Faith".

Since the Ordinators also enforce the civil order and state law, and since I performed all the necessary things the lore and the game mechanics require for this, I'm fully authorized to judge and kill any thief or assassin performing a crime on sight both in Morrowind and abroad (like High Ordinator Danys) and it should not be treated as a crime, but as a punishment for those who commit it. As you see it, it's not about storytelling or some "backstory" inventing. And it is surely not a "worse crime (murder) to punish a lesser crime (stealing)" thing.

I see that you have not mentioned that "or at least to call the guards" part I wrote for purpose having focused on that "kill" thing instead. "Moral outrage".. I see your disrespect and mockery, Jaraal.. Too bad we won't make friends.

AlnilamE · December 2020

I've pickpocketed for motif pages and furnishings. Now I mostly go after lockboxes for leads (there are purple leads in many zones that drop from "All Loot Tables")

It's pretty relaxing.

kargen27 · December 2020

Thieving and pickpocketing is just another part of my gameplay. Same as looting containers or gathering resources. I have more than I will ever need but if there is something I can pick up I do it unless doing a group activity where it might start irritating the group.
From time to time I will run a circle of either thieving or pickpocketing for a while hoping to land a big ticket item. There is a loop in Wayrest that has drunks and nobles you can pickpocket. If you do the pick-pick-stab thing they respawn quick enough you can run the circle without having to wait. Nobles drop a throne furniture recipe that sells for quite a bit of gold and the drunks drop that skooma thing mentioned above.

Muttsmutt · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

snip

holy *** this post was a wild ride! alright, let's try...

you've dissociated very far from the initial reason why thievery is morally wrong- taking away somebody's property. that somebody simply does not exist in a videogame. you are causing no causal harm to any entity capable of experiencing that harm. the majority of people are capable of realizing this, therefore even if irl they'd be very opposed to thievery- or murder for that matter, which you do all the time in videogames- in a game, their brains do not register the action as "stealing" or "murdering"; therefore the symbolic action of stealing or killing is simply not associated with anything from real life, there is nothing attractive to it. it's just a game mechanic that is associate with "winning" at the game.

A- Yes, you are absolutely right, the symbolic action of stealing or killing is not associated with anything from real life
the brains of those players do not register the criminal acts they perform as such
B- these sinister desires to act like that should be innerly fought

statement A contradicts statement B; as statement B implies the negation of your understanding of statement A not having anything to do with any sinister desires; but rather the motivators behind such behaviour are strictly linked to one's desire to play the videogame.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

So what, what do you disagree with?

this:

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I think that killing innocents and stealing from them is bad irrespectively of what exact harm such things cause

i guess the bottomline is that you are approaching it from a roleplay-heavy perspective, while most people don't. they approach it as a game. you're saying the people approaching the stealing mechanic in games as a means to playing the game/experiencing all its gameplay/winning the game should be punished, because roleplay-wise it's wrong. that's essentially forcing your roleplay-tinged perspective onto people who simply do not get immersed into the world as you do, nor care to behave within it as "real characters". they're just playing a game. there are no sinister desires to fight.

it's just a videogame, and people just want to play the videogame in its entirety, regardless of whether a part of the gameplay incites behaviour considered immoral by the internal rules of said videogame; as they don't immerse themselves in the world sufficiently that its rules would have moral weight as the real world's rules would, on their in-game behaviour.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

X- I completed the Seal of Three quest in Deshaan
X- I performed all the necessary things the lore and the game mechanics require for this
Z- it's not about storytelling

statements X contradict statement Z.

it's okay to just say you get real immersed in the game world & wish others did the same.
certainly more okay than guilting people for playing the game differently!

robwolf666 · December 2020

I only "borrow" stuff with a 100+ gold value, and the large shipments from troves... so yup, you can make some nice gold from doing it.

Aigym_Hlervu · December 2020

You've got real problems with logic if you think that:

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

X- I completed the Seal of Three quest in Deshaan
X- I performed all the necessary things the lore and the game mechanics require for this
Z- it's not about storytelling

statements X contradict statement Z.

If you see no difference between the storytelling or backstory creation and completing quests and other goals in order to.. achieve something, [snip] Moreover that part you qouted was written not to you, but to Jaraal, who thought that I was speaking not of a punishment for a crime, but of a crime for a crime. [snip]

[snip] - by playing the roles of thieves and murderers. Yes, I play the role of an Ordinator. Well.. Unlike you I "play" it simply by wearing that armor only since I have no other options. I don't persecute anyone there just because of it, I don't do Ordinator-like things like saying "I'm watching you scums!" in the chat, etc., while you do perform things considered criminal by the in-game law and morality combined. It is you who are the active members of the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, you do it's tasks, you steal and murder those who did nothing wrong to you and you also know that those actions are considered both awful and criminal there. It is you who got immersed there, [snip]

Third, [snip] - I had several NPC whom I was talking to murdered in broad day-light right during my conversation with them, and still I could do nothing to slay down those criminals! [snip] You steal from someone or murder someone who are protected by the in-game law there - you are a thief and murderer. Period. You think I'm wrong - just perform that thing in front of a guard and he'll explain you everything much better then me trying to do it here.

Fourth, all I did in this thread initially was to post an alternative opinion among the thieves and murderers in order to make some of you think what you are doing and give up that activity. [snip] You may advocate your behaviour eternally by laying the blame back on me, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Raideen · December 2020

I have never found it rewarding. I imagine had I gotten some cool loot or something I might feel different but my RNG seems to error on the side of always giving me junk. So meh.

Muttsmutt · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

You've got real problems with logic if you think that:

Muttsmutt wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

X- I completed the Seal of Three quest in Deshaan
X- I performed all the necessary things the lore and the game mechanics require for this
Z- it's not about storytelling

statements X contradict statement Z.

If you see no difference between the storytelling or backstory creation and completing quests and other goals in order to.. achieve something, [snip] Moreover that part you qouted was written not to you, but to Jaraal, who thought that I was speaking not of a punishment for a crime, but of a crime for a crime. [snip]

[snip] - by playing the roles of thieves and murderers. Yes, I play the role of an Ordinator. Well.. Unlike you I "play" it simply by wearing that armor only since I have no other options. I don't persecute anyone there just because of it, I don't do Ordinator-like things like saying "I'm watching you scums!" in the chat, etc., while you do perform things considered criminal by the in-game law and morality combined. It is you who are the active members of the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, you do it's tasks, you steal and murder those who did nothing wrong to you and you also know that those actions are considered both awful and criminal there. It is you who got immersed there, [snip]

Third, [snip] - I had several NPC whom I was talking to murdered in broad day-light right during my conversation with them, and still I could do nothing to slay down those criminals! [snip] You steal from someone or murder someone who are protected by the in-game law there - you are a thief and murderer. Period. You think I'm wrong - just perform that thing in front of a guard and he'll explain you everything much better then me trying to do it here.

Fourth, all I did in this thread initially was to post an alternative opinion among the thieves and murderers in order to make some of you think what you are doing and give up that activity. [snip] You may advocate your behaviour eternally by laying the blame back on me, [snip]

LalMirchi · December 2020

Oh my Darling SafeBox, how do you call to me in so many ways? Every time I glance you I want to loot you?

TheImperfect · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I might be the only player who thinks this way, but I find thievery shameful, dishonorful and almost the most disgraceful thing. No matter if it is a game or real life - I think the very wish to take someone's property is shameful. I've never been a member neither of the Thieves Guild nor of the Dark Brotherhood in any of the ES games and each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards. Still none of those options are provided as if the developers would have been supporting such actions. None of those thugs commit those crimes because they starve or have no means to live, or because they are forced to do it by the game quest mechanics (i.e. ordinary quests like the one that required to break into a Covenant spy's house during the EP Main Quest line) - their crimes are not the retaliation to the criminal social environment that forces them to do so. These players own lands, houses, money, weapons and titles, they are not the lowest classes of their local societies - they all do it because they want to do it, can do it, it brings them money and they like it.

I don't think that thievery should be depicted that way in the game. Yes, it is the part of this world, but I think it should have never been made that attractive to some players if not for the majority of them. Sinister desires should be fought, not encouraged, be it in a game (any game - video game, board game, chess, whatever) or IRL. At least allowing us to engage a thief or an assassin into a combat on sight without "invitation to duel" (a duel? With a thief?.. Are they serious?..) or to call the guards would be an adequate measure for those who have an overwhelming desire to steal and kill those who did nothing bad to them. It is my opinion only and no appeals to things like "Man, it's a video game, not the real life!" will change it - such appeals sound like an exuse to me, they legalize those sinister desires to those players only because unlikd IRL stealing in a video game brings no responsibility. No responsibility - no concern - pleasure. And since a sanction is the only thing that stops people from commiting a crime, an action viewed as illegal by the very rules of that fictional world (yes, to those who haven't understood it yet - I don't speak of those Elsweyr and Valenwood customs in this post), then.. I doubt we'll be able to find common grounds. Don't join the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood mates, don't be thugs - you are much better than this. None of you were born thieves and assassins and the sinister desire to act like that, it is just the product of the environment you live in that effects your consciousness, that makes it somehow attractive to you. Fight it !

OK I agree with you in principle up to a point but I do steal in game and kill. However I would NEVER steal or kill in real life under any circumstances except perhaps real starvation situations for theft of food but even then I would first try to find another way, like working or begging. Only in the most extreme survival circumstances but then I would find a way to pay it back if it was ever necessary which I doubt it would be.

SeaGtGruff · December 2020

Raideen wrote: »

I have never found it rewarding. I imagine had I gotten some cool loot or something I might feel different but my RNG seems to error on the side of always giving me junk. So meh.

I've never looked into how it works, but it seems like you get junk (white treasure, trash, food ingredients, style materials, trait materials, etc.) when you first start stealing, and you don't start to get consistently better loot (green treasure, blue treasure, and occasionally purple treasure) until you've been stealing for a while and your level increases. So, like anything else in the game, you need to invest some time and effort into thievery for it to become very rewarding.

Aigym_Hlervu · December 2020

TheImperfect wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I might be the only player who thinks this way, but I find thievery shameful, dishonorful and almost the most disgraceful thing. No matter if it is a game or real life - I think the very wish to take someone's property is shameful. I've never been a member neither of the Thieves Guild nor of the Dark Brotherhood in any of the ES games and each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards. Still none of those options are provided as if the developers would have been supporting such actions. None of those thugs commit those crimes because they starve or have no means to live, or because they are forced to do it by the game quest mechanics (i.e. ordinary quests like the one that required to break into a Covenant spy's house during the EP Main Quest line) - their crimes are not the retaliation to the criminal social environment that forces them to do so. These players own lands, houses, money, weapons and titles, they are not the lowest classes of their local societies - they all do it because they want to do it, can do it, it brings them money and they like it.

I don't think that thievery should be depicted that way in the game. Yes, it is the part of this world, but I think it should have never been made that attractive to some players if not for the majority of them. Sinister desires should be fought, not encouraged, be it in a game (any game - video game, board game, chess, whatever) or IRL. At least allowing us to engage a thief or an assassin into a combat on sight without "invitation to duel" (a duel? With a thief?.. Are they serious?..) or to call the guards would be an adequate measure for those who have an overwhelming desire to steal and kill those who did nothing bad to them. It is my opinion only and no appeals to things like "Man, it's a video game, not the real life!" will change it - such appeals sound like an exuse to me, they legalize those sinister desires to those players only because unlikd IRL stealing in a video game brings no responsibility. No responsibility - no concern - pleasure. And since a sanction is the only thing that stops people from commiting a crime, an action viewed as illegal by the very rules of that fictional world (yes, to those who haven't understood it yet - I don't speak of those Elsweyr and Valenwood customs in this post), then.. I doubt we'll be able to find common grounds. Don't join the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood mates, don't be thugs - you are much better than this. None of you were born thieves and assassins and the sinister desire to act like that, it is just the product of the environment you live in that effects your consciousness, that makes it somehow attractive to you. Fight it !

OK I agree with you in principle up to a point but I do steal in game and kill. However I would NEVER steal or kill in real life under any circumstances except perhaps real starvation situations for theft of food but even then I would first try to find another way, like working or begging. Only in the most extreme survival circumstances but then I would find a way to pay it back if it was ever necessary which I doubt it would be.

Yes, mate, this is exactly what I was speaking in 5th sentence of my initial post you quoted. Sometimes circumstances force people to act bad, indeed, and I've already spoken of it up in that part. There are some books in classical literature on that point depicting people dying from starvation because they simply can't steal and kill mentally.. These are two extreme points, but the main idea I spoke there about was on the inner wish to steal and kill without those hopeless circumstances pushing people into darkness. Somehow I don't feel that necessity even in a video game. But I see so many decent people who act as if they were thinking "This is a fiction world so I can be the one here whom I can't be IRL! So great to be bad without a risk to face consequences!" Just listen to such a phrase. I wonder what kind of reality people are living in IRL so they have such thoughts and a desire to escape from it into a fiction world in order to spend their time not being themselves or being a darker part of themselves. I don't blame them for that, of course, but I can't accept that they say it is me who is wrong in not having those dark desires and in my lack of the desire to be someone else. I play this game not to escape my own reality, but to see how would I have acted in another one being myself, to see what role the game provides suits me best and what choices would I have made if I were there. Thievery and assassinations are definitively not mine. I just don't feel any fun or necessity to do it and this why I see no fun in discussing the ways to do it. And the Dark Brotherhood - I remember they tried to kill me 18 years ago in TES III and I still remember how annoying they were interrupting my rest there, so joining them has never been an option to me. I wanted to destroy them entirely, but only TES V gave me such an option at last. This is the reason I don't like those who shares their cause and joins the ranks of that filthy organization.

I've never said anything bad to those thieves and assassins in the game, but once again, when they killed the NPC I was talking to and closed my dialogue boxes with them, so I had to wait for the respawn, and then performed it again, that was enough. First I blamed those players, but later I understood that the very concept allowing them to act like that is the very reason of those actions - the in-game lore and mechanics system that sets the rule "Don't steal and kill these people", then it gives direct means to break that rule and gives no means to counter those actions in order to restore the initial rule. A nice system. It plays on the most sinister wishes and features of the players and so many get into it.

You might remember that upon the introduction of the justice system in the ESO, there was a planned update that would have introduced a PvP Enforcer system, whereby players could hunt down and attack criminals with bounties while in a PvE zone. The system was ultimately scrapped. I think that was a mistake since the guards can do literally nothing to the scoundrels and we have what we have - those thugs are everywhere and nothing can be done with it. This is the only reason I wrote that post of mine you quoted - among all these discussions of the amount of reward the people can steal I just tried to call for the players' better part since there is no other way for the alternative. I suppose I would have been not a lonely Ordinator there who would willingly take part in that Enforcer system, so my point of view is not something extraordinary here.

@Muttsmutt, I have to apologize if you have treated my reply to you as an offending one. I did not intend to tell anything rude to you - you see it in my initial post there. I treated your reply to me as a mockery, so I had to react properly. But now I see you haven't abused me again as I was expecting it, so that gives me a sign that you are possibly a better person than I thought of you. Thank you and have a good day too.

Muttsmutt · December 2020

alright mate, i was gonna leave you alone since clearly i couldn't find the right words to make you understand what i was trying to say- which wasn't against you, but trying to explain to you that the perspective you assume players who steal have, is not the perspective they have in reality- but you've said some things now that i think i can use to try again.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

they were thinking "This is a fiction world so I can be the one here whom I can't be IRL!
they have such thoughts and a desire to escape from it into a fiction world in order to spend their time not being themselves or being a darker part of themselves

this is, plain and simple, not correct. yes, there are some players who do this for roleplay purposes, and for whom what you said may be true- but that's not the kinds of players i'm talking about. those aren't the only kinds of players who engage with a thieving system in a game. there is another kind, whose mentalities i'm trying to explain to you, who simply do not think like that. to them, stealing is not about behaving as somebody else in a fictional world, or escaping from real life. it's simply about taking advantage of a game mechanic in order to obtain rewards in the game, such as gold in this case. the player does not affectively engage with the thieving system. they don't do it because they have a desire for stealing itself; but a desire for loot. stealing is just one of many ways that the game allows them to obtain it, and they will make use of it, because they are competitive and want to feel like they are "winning" at the game- by obtaining as many in-game rewards as possible, as efficienty as possible.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

I play this game not to escape my own reality, but to see how would I have acted in another one being myself, to see what role the game provides suits me best and what choices would I have made if I were there.

that's fun and i enjoy that as well. that is what being immersed means- imagining yourself in the world, and acting according to what choices you would make. the types of players i described above, do not get immersed. those who steal in order to obtain loot, do not play the game because they want to see how they would act in the game world, they behaviour in-game is a reflection ONLY of their desire to obtain as many rewards as they can, through all means the game provides. there is no immersion, just playing the game as a videogame with a goal and reward system- like playing an arcade game to get a high score. the game world is not seen as something one engages with as themselves- but as a challenge to be beaten, a score to obtained.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

PvP Enforcer system, whereby players could hunt down and attack criminals with bounties while in a PvE zone

this specific system would have been very cool and i'd have enjoyed engaging with it- and from a roleplay standpoint, it would have been a great tool for people who think as you do, being immersed into the game world.

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

@Muttsmutt, I have to apologize if you have treated my reply to you as an offending one. I did not intend to tell anything rude to you - you see it in my initial post there. I treated your reply to me as a mockery, so I had to react properly. But now I see you haven't abused me again as I was expecting it, so that gives me a sign that you are possibly a better person than I thought of you. Thank you and have a good day too.

i apologize as well, for coming across as mocking you- i was appaled reading your initial comment is all.
at this point i just geniunely want to explain to you that people aren't stealing in games because they are lured by a dark desire that ought to be suppressed- but merely because they don't see the game as a world in which they want to act as themselves, it's just a game to them, and they will use any type of gameplay to "win" at the game- not because they're repressing dark urges, but because they are disconnected from the game as a personal experience.

now, of course, people are complex and how one individual perceives doing crime in a videogame varies from person to person, but please, don't believe that everybody and anybody who does crime in a videogame is giving in to dark urges.

some people just play videogames to win, not to get immersed. their behaviour in-game has little to do with their morals.

SammyKhajit · December 2020

This sleek khajit finds thievery most rewarding, especially when one pockets the chicken-mudcrab-thing.

Wandering_Immigrant · December 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

each time I see someone breaking into someone's house, stealing things sneaking behind an NPC or murdering such an NPC for no reason other than robbing and skills development, I always feel the necessity either to kill the thug or at least to call the guards.

So you are willing to commit a worse crime (murder) to punish a lesser crime (stealing). I believe your moral outrage is misplaced.

No, no crime for a crime, of course. I completed the Seal of Three quest in Deshaan, thus Almalexia named me a Hand of Almalexia after saving her High Fane in Mournhold, thus I became an Ordinator. Then I fought much in PvP and obtained a full set of the Militant Ordinator Motif 49 armor. Then I perfromed a big work to pick up correct dyes and to dye it right and finally wrote A Guide to Join the Ordinators Faction in ESO to help all those who wish to play an Ordinator too. As it is written in the Guide to Liturgical Vestments by High Ordinator Vermethys - "At this point, any action of the Ordinator is protected by divine mandate. So long as she wears the mask, the Ordinator is considered a faultless hand of the Three, and is authorized to commit any martial action deemed necessary to protect the True Faith".

Since the Ordinators also enforce the civil order and state law, and since I performed all the necessary things the lore and the game mechanics require for this, I'm fully authorized to judge and kill any thief or assassin performing a crime on sight both in Morrowind and abroad (like High Ordinator Danys) and it should not be treated as a crime, but as a punishment for those who commit it. As you see it, it's not about storytelling or some "backstory" inventing. And it is surely not a "worse crime (murder) to punish a lesser crime (stealing)" thing.

I see that you have not mentioned that "or at least to call the guards" part I wrote for purpose having focused on that "kill" thing instead. "Moral outrage".. I see your disrespect and mockery, Jaraal.. Too bad we won't make friends.

I hate to burst your bubble, but roleplaying as the face of justice for a bunch of socially stunted racist slaveowners does not make you one of the good guys.

There's multiple cultures in Tamriel, you've latched onto one, I have multiple characters that explore various sides of the world. My thieves are a Khajiit an Argonian and two Bosmer. I also have multiple characters who if they so much as accidentally steal an apple will actively seek out a guard to turn themselves in because they're just not about that life. I also have multiple characters who's moral compass lies somewhere in between.

What does this say about my real life persona? Well it either says I'm quite the bi-polar mess or that I'm quite capable of separating fantasy from reality.

Serious question time. When you watch a movie with a thief or assassin type character in it do you also assume the actor playing that role is suppressing these dark urges in real life too? Also are you suppressing the urge to become a vigilante or this something that's only applicable to other people?