Is bloodthirsty a decent trait?

WacArnold · November 2020

Im wondering how effective bloodthirsty is when playing a magic class.

I have noticed im having a hard time finishing enemys if my combo is not killing them. Has any one used bloodthirsty on a mag class and how effective is it?

I wondering if i get enemys to low health with a combo if 3x bloodthirsty would provide enough pressure to finish the job against enemys that block cast heals and dodge roll alot or at least keep them low untill im ready for my next burst combo.

Or should i just invest more into damage to make my combs hit harder?
Would loosing 3x arcane lower my damge so much that its not worth it?

More specifically im playing magblade. My combos are not guareented to hit since they are all dodgeable so i was thinking if i get an enemy to low health i may hit 1 out of 4 attacks against a dodging opponent but would the few hits i get be boosted enough to provide the pressure to keep their health low?

And yes i have a class execution but one dodge roll and rally or block cast a burst heal players are usually out of 25% pretty quick, plus slotting an execute on a crammed bar is tough.

Taleof2Cities · November 2020

The trait mechanics on Bloodthirsty were changed for the Stonethorn patch, @WacArnold ... be sure you're staying up to date with the patch notes:

Bloodthirsty: This trait now grants up to 350 Weapon and Spell Damage against targets under 90% Health, scaling linearly per 1% missing Health, rather than granting a flat 10% damage increase against targets under 25% Health.
The change is not a nerf per se.

However, there's no easy answer when you evaluate your specific build against what other needs you have for your magblade.

I recommend trying out specific jewelry trait combos on the UESP build editor and/or PTS to see what fits for your playstyle.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:EsoBuildEditor

Waffennacht · November 2020

I think bloodthirsty would work for you in the way you want only via DoT.

Sounds like your trouble is hitting the opponent to finish them, which bloodthirsty wont be much better for you unless there is a DoT already on them (then it'll get the bloodthirsty buff and hopefully be enough to finish them)

The idea is, placing 1 or 2 dots, burst to get them low, DoTs maintain pressure until you can kill. If no DoTs you run the risk of a Dodge roll cancelled heal to negate ur burst

WacArnold · November 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The trait mechanics on Bloodthirsty were changed for the Stonethorn patch, @WacArnold ... be sure you're staying up to date with the patch notes:
Bloodthirsty: This trait now grants up to 350 Weapon and Spell Damage against targets under 90% Health, scaling linearly per 1% missing Health, rather than granting a flat 10% damage increase against targets under 25% Health.

The change is not a nerf per se.

However, there's no easy answer when you evaluate your specific build against what other needs you have for your magblade.

I recommend trying out specific jewelry trait combos on the UESP build editor and/or PTS to see what fits for your playstyle.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:EsoBuildEditor

I knew about the change, was not sure if it still functions somewhat the same as it can be used to counter an ememy recovering. i was thinking the change may have made it more usefull above 25% keeping sustained pressure in more of a widdle them down way countering healing.

That is a good point you make using build editor i would need to figure out the math my self dependent on my build.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I think bloodthirsty would work for you in the way you want only via DoT.

Sounds like your trouble is hitting the opponent to finish them, which bloodthirsty wont be much better for you unless there is a DoT already on them (then it'll get the bloodthirsty buff and hopefully be enough to finish them)

The idea is, placing 1 or 2 dots, burst to get them low, DoTs maintain pressure until you can kill. If no DoTs you run the risk of a Dodge roll cancelled heal to negate ur burst

Thats a good point. Thats exactly what im trying to use this for. Hmm yeah i see what your saying if im having trouble hitting them its not gonna matter the damge i have.

Metemsycosis · December 2020

I swear someone was using bloodthirsty on a lightning heavy attack build. (Took 3 ticks for 19k damage)

danthemann5 · December 2020

MATH WARNING!

An infused ring with weapon (or spell) damage enchant provides 278 WD

A bloodthirsty ring with weapon damage provides 174 WD from 100% target health to 90% target health.
From 90% target health to 0% target health, WD scales from 174 WD to 524 WD (174+350 bloodthirsty bonus)

Thus y=-388.889x + 524 where x is percentage of target health and y is weapon damage.

Solving for x where y=278 (the break even point between infused WD and bloodthirsty + WD) yields a value of 26.74%

Therefore, at target health greater than about 27%, infused weapon damage is more damage. At less than about 27% target health, bloodthirsty + WD over takes infused WD.

That's for 1 individual piece of jewelry.

3 infused WD jewelry gives 834 WD constant

3 bloodthirsty + WD has the same "break even" point as above, 26.74% target health

2 infused WD and 1 BT +WD has a "break even" point of 26.74% target health, same as above

1 infused WD and 2 BT +WD has a "break even" point of 26.74% target health, same as above

So in effective use, infused WD is going to be more damage the vast majority of the time. Bloodthirsty only overtakes infused WD at 27% target health. In my experience, targets vary rarely spend any amount of time that state. Either they heal out of it or die shortly thereafter.

In my experience and opinion based on math, bloodthirsty is not desirable in PvP.

The above is incorrect. Mia culpa.

ccfeeling · December 2020

END GAME PVE - Blood
All around - Infuse

fred4 · December 2020

danthemann5 wrote: »

MATH WARNING!

An infused ring with weapon (or spell) damage enchant provides 278 WD

A bloodthirsty ring with weapon damage provides 174 WD from 100% target health to 90% target health.
From 90% target health to 0% target health, WD scales from 174 WD to 524 WD (174+350 bloodthirsty bonus)

Thus y=-388.889x + 524 where x is percentage of target health and y is weapon damage.

Solving for x where y=278 (the break even point between infused WD and bloodthirsty + WD) yields a value of 26.74%

Therefore, at target health greater than about 27%, infused weapon damage is more damage. At less than about 27% target health, bloodthirsty + WD over takes infused WD.

That's for 1 individual piece of jewelry.

3 infused WD jewelry gives 834 WD constant

3 bloodthirsty + WD has the same "break even" point as above, 26.74% target health

2 infused WD and 1 BT +WD has a "break even" point of 26.74% target health, same as above

1 infused WD and 2 BT +WD has a "break even" point of 26.74% target health, same as above

So in effective use, infused WD is going to be more damage the vast majority of the time. Bloodthirsty only overtakes infused WD at 27% target health. In my experience, targets vary rarely spend any amount of time that state. Either they heal out of it or die shortly thereafter.

In my experience and opinion based on math, bloodthirsty is not desirable in PvP.

I don't even want to ask where the 388.889 is coming from. According to my own calculation Infused provides 104 additional damage over normal (278 - 174). This is what we need to match and:

104 = 0.297 * 350.

Thus we need to achieve 29.7% of the Bloodthirsty bonus, which scales between 0 and 90% of health.

0.9 [the point where Bloodthirsty starts scaling] * 0.297 = 0.267.

0.9 - 0.267 = 0.633

There. According to my calculation Bloodthirsty starts outperforming Infused at 63.3% of health. However this ignores one very big question: Is the Bloodthirsty bonus affected by Major / Minor Brutality / Sorcery?

danthemann5 · December 2020

Let me see if I can give a more clear explanation about how I came to the conclusion I did.

I made a comparison of two cases:

A gold ring with the infused trait and weapon damage enchant, giving a total WD of 287, and

A gold ring with the bloodthirsty trait and weapon damage, giving a minimum WD of 174 at a target health greater than or equal to 90% and a maximum weapon damage of 174 (from the enchant) + 350 (maximum bonus from BT at 0% target health) for a total of 524.

If we consider target health as our x values and weapon damage as our y values, we have 2 data points to work with. Since we know the bloodthirsty trait scales linearly, this is sufficient for our purposes:

point 1: x=0.9; y=174
point 2: x=0; y=524

From the above, we can see the y-intercept (the point at which our line crosses the y-axis, where x=0) is part of the known data, 524.

We can also calculate the slope of our line:

m = (y2-y1)/(x2-x1)
m = (524-174)/(0-0.9)
m = (350)/(-0.9)
m = -388.8888...

That's where the -388.889 comes from.

So, to find what I call the "break even" point, we find where the two graphs cross.

Graph 1 (infused WD) is a horizontal line y=287. This is so because in this case, WD does not vary with target health, it remains at a constant value.

Graph 2 (BT + WD) is a line which slopes downward from 0 target health to 0.9 target health and then remains constant at 174 from 0.9 to 1, described by the equation in slope-intercept forms as y=-388.889x+524.

The point at which the two graphs cross is the x value where the y values of both are equal, at y=287, thus:

287=-388.889x+524, solving for x:

x=(287-524)/-388.889
x=0.60941

Or 61% target health, where BT+WD overtakes infused WD.

Interestingly, that's not what I got yesterday. That's embarrassing.

Jman100582 · December 2020

bloodthirsty is good on classes that lack executes. Stamplar, magdk, magden, magcro all do pretty well with 3 bloodthirsty instead of 3 infused

Waffennacht · December 2020

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let me see if I can give a more clear explanation about how I came to the conclusion I did.

I made a comparison of two cases:

A gold ring with the infused trait and weapon damage enchant, giving a total WD of 287, and

A gold ring with the bloodthirsty trait and weapon damage, giving a minimum WD of 174 at a target health greater than or equal to 90% and a maximum weapon damage of 174 (from the enchant) + 350 (maximum bonus from BT at 0% target health) for a total of 524.

If we consider target health as our x values and weapon damage as our y values, we have 2 data points to work with. Since we know the bloodthirsty trait scales linearly, this is sufficient for our purposes:

point 1: x=0.9; y=174
point 2: x=0; y=524

From the above, we can see the y-intercept (the point at which our line crosses the y-axis, where x=0) is part of the known data, 524.

We can also calculate the slope of our line:

m = (y2-y1)/(x2-x1)
m = (524-174)/(0-0.9)
m = (350)/(-0.9)
m = -388.8888...

That's where the -388.889 comes from.

So, to find what I call the "break even" point, we find where the two graphs cross.

Graph 1 (infused WD) is a horizontal line y=287. This is so because in this case, WD does not vary with target health, it remains at a constant value.

Graph 2 (BT + WD) is a line which slopes downward from 0 target health to 0.9 target health and then remains constant at 174 from 0.9 to 1, described by the equation in slope-intercept forms as y=-388.889x+524.

The point at which the two graphs cross is the x value where the y values of both are equal, at y=287, thus:

287=-388.889x+524, solving for x:

x=(287-524)/-388.889
x=0.60941

Or 61% target health, where BT+WD overtakes infused WD.

Interestingly, that's not what I got yesterday. That's embarrassing.

Sounds like you two did essentially the same math as your end numbers vary only by 2% (easily rounding caused this)

Anyway.... For the majority of no CP PvP bloodthirsty does very little

Grimlok_S · December 2020

Jman100582 wrote: »

bloodthirsty is good on classes that lack executes. Stamplar, magdk, magden, magcro all do pretty well with 3 bloodthirsty instead of 3 infused

It's a hard line to tow in a pvp context, you will lose valuable healing on Stamplar going all in on infused to bloodthirsty, though magdk's burning embers would likely scale better.

danthemann5 · December 2020

I think a case can be made for using 1 piece or possibly 2 pieces of bloodthirsty jewelry. That case being a build that has low WD (or SD), such as a proc build. With a lower base weapon damage, the additional WD of bloodthirsty below 60% target health becomes a greater fraction of your overall WD, which could make the difference between finishing off an opponent or having them heal out of execute range.

In any case, I think it's entirely player preference.

TheBonesXXX · December 2020

danthemann5 wrote: »

I think a case can be made for using 1 piece or possibly 2 pieces of bloodthirsty jewelry. That case being a build that has low WD (or SD), such as a proc build. With a lower base weapon damage, the additional WD of bloodthirsty below 60% target health becomes a greater fraction of your overall WD, which could make the difference between finishing off an opponent or having them heal out of execute range.

In any case, I think it's entirely player preference.

I will use it on my hybrid Sorc, as he's argonian.

Amplitude + Bloodthirsty will pair well.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO · December 2020

The breakpoint is only 61% if you don’t account for any % modifiers. Once you start adding Brutality, Medium armor, Fighter’s Guild, Templar passives it can go as low as ~47%. The numbers in UESP are accurate. Set the target HP percentage and you’ll see how much you’re getting over Infused.

The PvE guys found last patch that BT wasn’t scaling at all anyway, but I still know people on the theory crafting discord that were swearing by it. A lot of people go by “feeling” instead of testing things themselves.

As an example on my Stamblade (5pc Medium, Major Brutality only). x3 BT vs x3 Infused.

01% target HP nets 779 wD
10% target HP nets 637 wD
25% target HP nets 401 wD
35% target HP nets 242 wD

I put 35%, bc that's about when Executioner is worth using over Surprise Attack.

I personally don't think BT is worth it, but that's just like my opinion, man.