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We've been through this numerous times now, offence has to scale with your stats
BohnT2
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Since Greymoor launched PvP has gone back to the days of Shadows of the Hist and One Tamriel.
Damage proc sets are used on every spec now with much greater results than max stat sets.
They offer more damage and more healing than your skills could ever provide no matter how many stat buffing sets you use.
Without using a single resource proc sets will exceed the damage of fully buffed skills and it doesn't matter how your stats look as long as you pump your penetration up.
You can run around with 50k HP, 1.4k weapon damage and 20k stam and mag, your proc sets don't care.
This removes a huge amount of opportunity cost that stat focused builds need in order to function, but it doesn't end there as procs can't crit and thus using malacath's ring of brutality offers a flat 25% damage increase in the damage formula without any drawbacks.
This also allows you to completely ignore your crit chance and critical damage bonus when making your build.
Let's list what you don't have to worry about when using procs: Max stamina, Max magicka, spell damage, weapon damage and you also need a lot less sustain.
This means you can freely choose your mundus, your armor and jewelry enchants all of which stat based builds have to use in order to be useable. Keep in mind even with full damage investment they have less damage, less survivability and less sustain than a proc build.
Parts of the game that let you ignore certain parts of your build have proved in the past that they're causing issues:
The first wave of procs, oblivion damage, bleeds, malacath, endless sustain via heavy attacks, ...
It is time to finally break the cycle and change damage procs to scale with your stats again, be not affected by malacath and in general be weaker than actual skills.
They offer a huge benefit in pvp already by allowing to increase the damage you can squeeze into a single gcd more than anything else.
Edited by BohnT2 on November 19, 2020 2:41PM Damage proc sets are used on every spec now with much greater results than max stat sets.
They offer more damage and more healing than your skills could ever provide no matter how many stat buffing sets you use.
Without using a single resource proc sets will exceed the damage of fully buffed skills and it doesn't matter how your stats look as long as you pump your penetration up.
You can run around with 50k HP, 1.4k weapon damage and 20k stam and mag, your proc sets don't care.
All the screenshots here were taken with on a fully buffed build featuring the following stats:
And here's how different skills and the vate destro compare:
Those stats buff skill tooltips immensely and aren't common to what this build would see for most of the time.
As you can see the destro offers 3.8k damage every second (ignore the shock value that's due to an issue on the build editor)
The other dots shared can't compete at all with that it brings to the table.
Mystic siphon has a much lower tooltip while restoring less resources, is impossible to land for the whole duration in pvp and doesn't apply major breach.
And here's how different skills and the vate destro compare:
Those stats buff skill tooltips immensely and aren't common to what this build would see for most of the time.
As you can see the destro offers 3.8k damage every second (ignore the shock value that's due to an issue on the build editor)
The other dots shared can't compete at all with that it brings to the table.
Mystic siphon has a much lower tooltip while restoring less resources, is impossible to land for the whole duration in pvp and doesn't apply major breach.
This removes a huge amount of opportunity cost that stat focused builds need in order to function, but it doesn't end there as procs can't crit and thus using malacath's ring of brutality offers a flat 25% damage increase in the damage formula without any drawbacks.
This also allows you to completely ignore your crit chance and critical damage bonus when making your build.
Let's list what you don't have to worry about when using procs: Max stamina, Max magicka, spell damage, weapon damage and you also need a lot less sustain.
This means you can freely choose your mundus, your armor and jewelry enchants all of which stat based builds have to use in order to be useable. Keep in mind even with full damage investment they have less damage, less survivability and less sustain than a proc build.
Parts of the game that let you ignore certain parts of your build have proved in the past that they're causing issues:
The first wave of procs, oblivion damage, bleeds, malacath, endless sustain via heavy attacks, ...
It is time to finally break the cycle and change damage procs to scale with your stats again, be not affected by malacath and in general be weaker than actual skills.
They offer a huge benefit in pvp already by allowing to increase the damage you can squeeze into a single gcd more than anything else.
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caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Completely agree with this. It has become ridiculous, almost all the good parts of the combat have been destroyed.
Going back to stat based builds also increases build diversity a lot, because each build has to specialize in a couple of stats to be effective. Looking for sets with the highest effective stat density for your style of play was also fun, because there are so many different options regarding this and not all sets just offer a flat stat boost.
Though I fear we have to wait until at least the next chapter for a big change to happen, because now ZOS is selling their antiquities that pair very well with a proc meta.6 -
Vayln_Ninetails✭✭✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Stat set are boring they are just numbers
big agree here.
I love proc sets.
They are basically like alternate/additional abilities. Stat based sets are boring asf.3 -
DT-ARR✭✭✭✭To those who think proc sets are fun, i see your point and agree. It is entertaining seeing opponents melt away with a single button click as multiple procs go off at once.
BUT...
In their current form they are simply game breaking from a balance standpoint and beyond defense. The only reason to promote them in their current form...which I greatly sympathize with...is if you took the effort and time to farm / upgrade them and thus selfishly don’t want to see your efforts wasted via the nerf hammer.
Regardless though, the OP’s point is beyond rebuke. It is the antithesis of balance to allow proc set builds to apply an equal amount of damage as stat based builds while at the same time also allowing for maximum survivability.
For the sake of balance a choice must be made by the player between max damage, or max survivability. Or if you want balance, a lesser degree of both.
This is just common sense.Edited by DT-ARR on November 20, 2020 3:26AM6 -
caperb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Stat set are boring they are just numbers
?
Proc sets are boring, they are just flat damage numbers.
Stat sets allow more diversity because they actually buff 12 skills instead of one 5-piece.
Edit: to add to that, stat sets are not just numbers. Also there are a lot of 'proc' stat sets which are not as overtuned as their damage counterparts and which actually need to be timed with your burst. This results in fun gameplay, because I don't define trying to time your whole burst in an offensive window as boring. I rather define proccing a damage proc set as boring.
Overall stat sets allow for much greater build diversity because there are a lot of stats that can be buffed, while the damage proc sets... well, read the OP.Edited by caperb on November 20, 2020 5:48AM7 -
Artorias24✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crit chance got nerfed, so even more of a Proc Set/Malacath patch then ever before.
I am 100% sure that ZOS knows what they do with those changes and constant supply of new and stronger proc sets. And i am 100% Sure they wont stop for a long long time.
Tired of tank meta? Get ready for more. Ppl will build even more tanky to survive builds Like Unleashed with vma 2h. One button and get 40k over 5 seconds dot on you. One button... Gap Close, dot, aoe dot, applies dot on aoe, initial hit damage. Everything a zergling could dream of. Doesnt even need to barswap.
I remember times where it was actually hard to get above 24k HP in PvP. Now you get 37k without even trying. Proc Sets, HP stack..... Just carry the noobs... Why teach theam to learn If they could just put on meta proc sets and be efficent?4 -
Thannazzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It was much better when proc sets could crit. At a minimum they should allow this again, and reduce the proc sets’ base damage accordingly. Basically tanky Malacath PVP builds should be doing less damage with proc sets, and glass-cannon, crit-stacking PVE builds should be doing more damage with proc sets.
I have mixed feelings about set procs scaling with max resources or weapon/spell damage. I think this makes the gear bonuses confusing and counterintuitive. While it could have a positive effect on balance, using crit to balance it would be just as effective and make more sense.1 -
OlumoGarbag✭✭✭✭✭
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It seems you haven't played ESO PvP in the last year. Yes sets like selene, red mountain, widowmaker have a visual and can be avoided, but those are not even close to the strongest proc sets.Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
Syvarahs, sheer venom, hunters, brp destro, vate destro, maelstrom 2h, unleashed, the crow set, grothdarr, etc
all of those can not be avoided at all as long as you don't constantly run away and los.
Anyone defending proc sets for pvp is clueless about how balance in a PvP game should work.class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To those who think proc sets are fun, i see your point and agree. It is entertaining seeing opponents melt away with a single button click as multiple procs go off at once.
BUT...
In their current form they are simply game breaking from a balance standpoint and beyond defense. The only reason to promote them in their current form...which I greatly sympathize with...is if you took the effort and time to farm / upgrade them and thus selfishly don’t want to see your efforts wasted via the nerf hammer.
Regardless though, the OP’s point is beyond rebuke. It is the antithesis of balance to allow proc set builds to apply an equal amount of damage as stat based builds while at the same time also allowing for maximum survivability.
For the sake of balance a choice must be made by the player between max damage, or max survivability. Or if you want balance, a lesser degree of both.
This is just common sense.
Well said, totally agree with all of this ^^^
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
Everything you project on a stat focused meta, isn't the case but rather is the case right now with procs going wild.
As others have pointed out, it's flat our wrong that you can avoid the damage procs by dodging.
Proc sets turn the game away from being reliant on the actual input behind the keyboard because they give so much damage/ healing with no effort.
You have a lot more time to react to something if you're running around with a 45k HP proc build than a 30k HP max stat build while you still have more damage on the proc build and you don't have to care about what your enemy does because your procs will ignore the plethora of counterplay.
Proc set meta has always reduced the skill gap a lot because they do the same thing regardless what you do, there is no thought process involved or anything, you proc them and they deal damage or heal you.
Depending on the Class your "combo" goes from multiple skills woven together to reach the best result to spamming toppling charge right after you've procced your 3 proc sets until the enemy is dead, you do nothing else than spamming a single ability and the procs will do the rest for you.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Stat set are boring they are just numbers
big agree here.
I love proc sets.
They are basically like alternate/additional abilities. Stat based sets are boring asf.
I highly disagree, procs may seem like they add something to the game but in reality they reduce the variety significantly.
Fighting any magicka spec right now will feel exactly the same because they all run the same combination of proc sets, vate destro + another 5pc proc of 4-5 different procs.
This results in classes being a skin applied to the body made of procs rather than the classes forming the actual body of your character.
This also means that interesting synergies inside classes don't mean anything anymore because you're much better off just running and stacking procs.
This is comparable to the scalebreaker patch when everyone started dropping class abilities to be able to fit more dots on your bars because they were so overtuned, it didn't matter if you played a magsorc a magwarden or a magnb they all played basically the same and used the same abilities as the others.
This makes the game much more boring and one dimensional than a stat focused meta which shows you the differences between classes and gives you a variety of different playstyles.5 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's disgusting how most abilities have been nerfed to the ground while procs have been buffed and now completely dominate.
The best example for the divisiveness between skill balance and proc balance is vateshran destro but it can be transferred for every single other proc set.
When looking at abilities that deal damage over time and have an Area of effect, all of them have a much higher cost and don't outperform single target dots by a lot and are stationary, however vate destro deals 4x the damage of most single target dots and often 2-3x the damage of ground, follows the target, gets 20% stronger when hitting enough people and doesn't cost a single point of magicka, by casting it you even start getting magicka back due to elemental drain.
Another example is vate 2h, it deals more AoE damage than dizzying swing does to a single target and it doesn't cost anything to use it because you still get the full effect of the 5 abilities cast to proc it.
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shimm✭✭✭✭✭This is the best explanation I’ve seen about why the current meta sucks (err, if you don’t follow it), thanks for posting.0 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Stat set are boring they are just numbers
No one is saying damage procs have to go, the point of this thread is they need to scale0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.
Have any of the professional dps parsers done any side by side parses with stat based builds vs proc based builds? Would be interesting to how they stack up. I get that you can build tanky with proc sets, but you can build pretty tanky too with stat based sets as well. I kind of like both, and wonder what synergizing a proc set with a stat set could produce as well. A DPS parse doesn't really tell you everything you need to know in regards to pvp, but you can see burst potential as well as pressure potential. Would be interesting to see.0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To those who say Stat based sets are boring: I would say there's nothing more fun than letting skill, strategy, and reflexes determine who wins a battle. The opposite of fun is Crit Rush spamming and putting three dots on people using poisoned weapons, Unleashed Terror, and Venomous Smite.2 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm an old school fighting game type. Grew up with Street Fighter 2 and 3. I like knowing the difference in the fight was my skill. Imagine if a hadoken procced a super move without using any bar. Those games would never have become so iconic.0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭
It is time to finally break the cycle and change damage procs to scale with your stats again, be not affected by malacath and in general be weaker than actual skills.
Alternatively, what about tuning them down to no CP levels, and then letting them scale with CP so that they could potentially be balanced in both playstyles, rather than to stats? From what I read they are pretty devastating in no CP which I play very, very little of. In the CP campaign they don't seem so overbearing. I mean in your example of 50k health, 20k stam, 20k mag 1.4k weap/spell dmg you are pretty much relying solely on the procs for damage. Any other attempt at damage with a build like that will hit like a wet noodle, all of your other damage skills become inconsequential. In CP PvP that can be withstood. Now if you get multiple people stacking things on you that is a different story, but if you are getting focused by stat based builds it's the same thing. Focused is focused either way.
Edited by Ranger209 on November 24, 2020 12:38AM0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.
Have any of the professional dps parsers done any side by side parses with stat based builds vs proc based builds? Would be interesting to how they stack up. I get that you can build tanky with proc sets, but you can build pretty tanky too with stat based sets as well. I kind of like both, and wonder what synergizing a proc set with a stat set could produce as well. A DPS parse doesn't really tell you everything you need to know in regards to pvp, but you can see burst potential as well as pressure potential. Would be interesting to see.
You can compare the CMX parses of fights or check the damage done after a BG.
Here's an example from a build running close to 45k HP with procs.
There is no way anyone comes even close to that with a stat based build while providing even half the tankiness the build offers.
When checking CMX after fights most proc builds gain 60-80% of their damage from procs alone, and neither of their skills hit for 60-80% less than a stat based build.
Procs will highly increase your damage without requiring any investment or any skill.
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
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It is time to finally break the cycle and change damage procs to scale with your stats again, be not affected by malacath and in general be weaker than actual skills.
Alternatively, what about tuning them down to no CP levels, and then letting them scale with CP so that they could potentially be balanced in both playstyles, rather than to stats? From what I read they are pretty devastating in CP which I play very, very little of. In the CP campaign they don't seem so overbearing. I mean in your example of 50k health, 20k stam, 20k mag 1.4k weap/spell dmg you are pretty much relying solely on the procs for damage. Any other attempt at damage with a build like that will hit like a wet noodle, all of your other damage skills become inconsequential. In CP PvP that can be withstood. Now if you get multiple people stacking things on you that is a different story, but if you are getting focused by stat based builds it's the same thing. Focused is focused either way.
Procs in no cp are much stronger than they are in CP because they don't scale with anything other than damage done and your penetration.
The build i mentioned above was an extreme example to express that stats don't matter at all.
A real build in CP running 50k HP is still able to hit better numbers and when built right still outdamages a stat based build that runs 30-35k HP.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.
Have any of the professional dps parsers done any side by side parses with stat based builds vs proc based builds? Would be interesting to how they stack up. I get that you can build tanky with proc sets, but you can build pretty tanky too with stat based sets as well. I kind of like both, and wonder what synergizing a proc set with a stat set could produce as well. A DPS parse doesn't really tell you everything you need to know in regards to pvp, but you can see burst potential as well as pressure potential. Would be interesting to see.
Parsing would tell you next to nothing about the strength of your build in PvP. For instance wearing malacath would give you a pretty appalling parse regardless of your set up, but in PvP it's very strong.
You can't get anywhere near the tankiness of a proc set up and still kill people. You can wear all heavy, all attributes into health and protective jewelry on 3 proc sets. Then you just use your health scaling heal to keep you alive.
A stat set up could do maybe one of these things and still be successful, but not all of them.
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Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.
Have any of the professional dps parsers done any side by side parses with stat based builds vs proc based builds? Would be interesting to how they stack up. I get that you can build tanky with proc sets, but you can build pretty tanky too with stat based sets as well. I kind of like both, and wonder what synergizing a proc set with a stat set could produce as well. A DPS parse doesn't really tell you everything you need to know in regards to pvp, but you can see burst potential as well as pressure potential. Would be interesting to see.
Parsing would tell you next to nothing about the strength of your build in PvP. For instance wearing malacath would give you a pretty appalling parse regardless of your set up, but in PvP it's very strong.
You can't get anywhere near the tankiness of a proc set up and still kill people. You can wear all heavy, all attributes into health and protective jewelry on 3 proc sets. Then you just use your health scaling heal to keep you alive.
A stat set up could do maybe one of these things and still be successful, but not all of them.
I think you could tell some things about it from the parse. For example, when they were talking about making the light and heavy attack changes and did some testing people were getting heavy attacks to land for 110k-120k. That was evident on the parse, and could easily be seen as a detriment to PvP. You could look at the damage the procs are doing and see what kind of effect that could have for burst potential if it all lined up. You could also look at burst potential from skills used on a stat based build and see the burst potential. You could do the same thing with dots for pressure. Comparing proc dots to stat build dots. If the stat build is significantly higher than that would offset the tankiness of the proc builds. I don't know how imbalanced this would appear, but if you have twice the burst and twice the pressure with half the hp that would appear balanced. This is why I am asking if there has been anyone to actually check it out. Checking out fights or BG's is a little misleading with movement, different players providing data, and everything else vs a straight up dummy parse in a controlled environment with the same person doing the same thing to the dummy consistently and showing us the difference between the two.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Thannazzar wrote: »Damaging proc sets have a time delay from trigger and a visual effect. They can be dodgerolled to avoid.
The key question is do you favour having to maintain spacial awareness in pvp using reflexes to dodge and respond or use a wider area of the battlefield. Or do you just wNt raw power in stats and go through the standard massive dot, gap closer, cc stun big hit, big hit, finisher finisher combo hoping the opponent doesn't have one of the former builds.
Neither guarantee success. Pvp success is principally about behind the keyboard skill.
This is untrue... yes there are some proc sets that can be blocked or dodged. Many place a dot on you that can't be avoided.
The same can be said for skills, but skills do less damage, cost resources and need stat investment to be effective. Proc set users are built defensively and there for do not feel as much oppression from other proc set users.
As someone stated the problem is balance. Stat sets require you to balance your offensive and defensive sets, proc sets only require you to stack defensive stats and skills, as your offense is taken care off. Besides the fact they ignore this balance they also take minimal user input in order to kill which is fine. They shouldn't however be stronger than stat based build as it is rewarding less effort. ZOS should make proc sets scale with your offensive stats with current tooltips being equal to a very glassy set up. Then you will have players mixing sets to achieve max damage from their proc set and will not be able to health stack and malacath shouldn't buff their damage.
Have any of the professional dps parsers done any side by side parses with stat based builds vs proc based builds? Would be interesting to how they stack up. I get that you can build tanky with proc sets, but you can build pretty tanky too with stat based sets as well. I kind of like both, and wonder what synergizing a proc set with a stat set could produce as well. A DPS parse doesn't really tell you everything you need to know in regards to pvp, but you can see burst potential as well as pressure potential. Would be interesting to see.
Parsing would tell you next to nothing about the strength of your build in PvP. For instance wearing malacath would give you a pretty appalling parse regardless of your set up, but in PvP it's very strong.
You can't get anywhere near the tankiness of a proc set up and still kill people. You can wear all heavy, all attributes into health and protective jewelry on 3 proc sets. Then you just use your health scaling heal to keep you alive.
A stat set up could do maybe one of these things and still be successful, but not all of them.
I think you could tell some things about it from the parse. For example, when they were talking about making the light and heavy attack changes and did some testing people were getting heavy attacks to land for 110k-120k. That was evident on the parse, and could easily be seen as a detriment to PvP. You could look at the damage the procs are doing and see what kind of effect that could have for burst potential if it all lined up. You could also look at burst potential from skills used on a stat based build and see the burst potential. You could do the same thing with dots for pressure. Comparing proc dots to stat build dots. If the stat build is significantly higher than that would offset the tankiness of the proc builds. I don't know how imbalanced this would appear, but if you have twice the burst and twice the pressure with half the hp that would appear balanced. This is why I am asking if there has been anyone to actually check it out. Checking out fights or BG's is a little misleading with movement, different players providing data, and everything else vs a straight up dummy parse in a controlled environment with the same person doing the same thing to the dummy consistently and showing us the difference between the two.
There really is no reason or additional value in doing such a test, people have been playing with procs since greymoor launched because they are superior and that's based on countless hours from hundreds of players across all classes and platforms.
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