Why does the Knightmare set not have any staves?

RaveRaveRaveRave · November 2020

I've always wondered why I never pulled a Knightmare ice staff and looking at collections, I now know why...

ImSoPro · November 2020

Welp

VaranisArano · November 2020

One Tamriel's smart loot.
Most weapons that can't proc their 5th piece bonus got removed with One Tamriel. Knightmare's 5th piece bonus requires melee damage to proc, so staves would have been removed.

ZOS has generally stopped doing this with later sets because they finally figured out that people really want stuff like Bow of the Viper even though it can't proc the 5th effect. Also, it made more sense back when 2-handed weapons only counted for one set bonus; now it really doesn't.

ShawnLaRock · November 2020

For my first 6 or 7 runs of HRC, I asked in chat for AY Bow - and everyone kept saying, “it doesn’t exist.” I thought they meant it just had a really low drop rate... but - doh! It was removed, of course. Oops.

S.

RaveRaveRaveRave · November 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

One Tamriel's smart loot.
Most weapons that can't proc their 5th piece bonus got removed with One Tamriel. Knightmare's 5th piece bonus requires melee damage to proc, so staves would have been removed.

ZOS has generally stopped doing this with later sets because they finally figured out that people really want stuff like Bow of the Viper even though it can't proc the 5th effect. Also, it made more sense back when 2-handed weapons only counted for one set bonus; now it really doesn't.

Gotcha, that explains it then! I have too many garbage sets hoarded up and wondered why I never got a Knightmare ice staff.

highkingnm · November 2020

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

For my first 6 or 7 runs of HRC, I asked in chat for AY Bow - and everyone kept saying, “it doesn’t exist.” I thought they meant it just had a really low drop rate... but - doh! It was removed, of course. Oops.

S.

It's good to know I'm not alone

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Xarc · November 2020

The real question is, why do you want stave weapons for melee proc set ?

lardvader · November 2020

With the new collections tab it's easy to check what's available drops for all sets. I have broken some hearts who were farming for BM and AY bows 🤓

Varana · November 2020

Xarcus wrote: »

The real question is, why do you want stave weapons for melee proc set ?

There are non-weapon abilities (class and guild) that may count as melee, and you can use them even with a ranged weapon equipped.
It would need testing because ESO is notoriously inconsistent with these things, but let's say you're a Nightblade - you could use Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon or Killer's Blade, and it should count as melee damage even with a staff/bow equipped. Using a Viper's bow, for instance, is not a far-fetched idea - just slot a melee ability on your bow bar, and you can proc the set.

There are a few sets where it really makes no sense - Soldier of Anguish, for instance, procs on melee light attacks, and you cannot get those with a staff or bow by any means.

But if it's just melee damage, the "smart loot" idea has gone a little bit too far.

Dragonnord · November 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

One Tamriel's smart loot.
Most weapons that can't proc their 5th piece bonus got removed with One Tamriel. Knightmare's 5th piece bonus requires melee damage to proc, so staves would have been removed.

ZOS has generally stopped doing this with later sets because they finally figured out that people really want stuff like Bow of the Viper even though it can't proc the 5th effect. Also, it made more sense back when 2-handed weapons only counted for one set bonus; now it really doesn't.

What? And who said a staff can't do damage in melee range? Noble Duelist set HAS staves and procs with melee damage.

Melee means CLOSE combat damage and YOU CAN use a staff in close combat, again, like Noble Duelist that DOES proc.

Varana · November 2020

As I said, ESO is very inconsistent with these things. Did you test Noble Duelist proccing from a staff/bow? Not just "it procs from melee, and there's a staff dropping" but specifically that a staff attack really procs the set?
I assumed, and apparently ZOS themselves assumed that as well

, that bow/staff attacks count as "range" even from melee range.

Dragonnord · November 2020

Varana wrote: »

As I said, ESO is very inconsistent with these things. Did you test Noble Duelist proccing from a staff/bow? Not just "it procs from melee, and there's a staff dropping" but specifically that a staff attack really procs the set?
I assumed, and apparently ZOS themselves assumed that as well , that bow/staff attacks count as "range" even from melee range.

Of course I tested, 100%. I use the build daily for soloing. Noble Duelist has staves and procs using the staff in melee combat.

kringled_1 · November 2020

The two sets tooltips are written differently. Noble Duelist specifically is written as "while in melee range", which I think includes ranged attacks when you are in range for a melee attack. Knightmare is just "melee damage" so I think staff light and heavy attacks are excluded no matter what the actual range. But yes, the approach from Zos has not been the most consistent.

Dragonnord · November 2020

kringled_1 wrote: »

The two sets tooltips are written differently. Noble Duelist specifically is written as "while in melee range", which I think includes ranged attacks when you are in range for a melee attack. Knightmare is just "melee damage" so I think staff light and heavy attacks are excluded no matter what the actual range. But yes, the approach from Zos has not been the most consistent.

Light attacks and heavy attacks ARE FROM the staff. There are even passives for that (ie: in Champion Points). So using a light attack with a staff is a staff atack. Nowhere it says it has to be a class or weapon skill using a staff.

In any case, I agree with you that ZOS is not consistent on their descriptions, tooltips and so.

kringled_1 · November 2020

Dragonnord wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

The two sets tooltips are written differently. Noble Duelist specifically is written as "while in melee range", which I think includes ranged attacks when you are in range for a melee attack. Knightmare is just "melee damage" so I think staff light and heavy attacks are excluded no matter what the actual range. But yes, the approach from Zos has not been the most consistent.

Light attacks and heavy attacks ARE FROM the staff. There are even passives for that (ie: in Champion Points). So using a light attack with a staff is a staff atack. Nowhere it says it has to be a class or weapon skill using a staff.

In any case, I agree with you that ZOS is not consistent on their descriptions, tooltips and so.

I understood what you meant. My interpretation of the tooltips is that a staff light attack will not proc the Knightmare 5p bonus, even if your target is within 5m, but it would proc the noble Duelist bonus, agreeing with your observations.

virtus753 · November 2020

I don’t think it ever made sense, frankly, especially compared to, say, lightning staves of the Dreugh King Slayer (of which there is a named version!).

Besides the issue of the fourth piece bonus, you have always been able to proc a melee-proc set by bashing or by using a melee skill while on that bar. (The exception would be a set that procs on melee light/heavy attacks specifically.) Don’t all classes have melee skills?

Varana wrote: »

Xarcus wrote: »

The real question is, why do you want stave weapons for melee proc set ?

There are non-weapon abilities (class and guild) that may count as melee, and you can use them even with a ranged weapon equipped.
It would need testing because ESO is notoriously inconsistent with these things, but let's say you're a Nightblade - you could use Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon or Killer's Blade, and it should count as melee damage even with a staff/bow equipped. Using a Viper's bow, for instance, is not a far-fetched idea - just slot a melee ability on your bow bar, and you can proc the set.

There are a few sets where it really makes no sense - Soldier of Anguish, for instance, procs on melee light attacks, and you cannot get those with a staff or bow by any means.

But if it's just melee damage, the "smart loot" idea has gone a little bit too far.

Even sets that proc on melee light/heavy attacks have a fourth piece bonus that counts, so they’re not totally useless. Even if they didn’t have that, there are infinitely many dropped non-set bows and staves that we could use to the same (non-)effect, so why not remove those from game or make them unequippable to prevent us from using them? It’s the same flawed logic.

ZOS shouldn’t be trying to control what 5-piece set pieces we equip where. That should be our choice. As long as they still have similarly inefficient things like a named lightning staff of the Dreugh King Slayer in the game, it’s hypocritical to remove particular set pieces because ZOS thinks they shouldn’t be used that way. It shows that they fail to understand not only the ways in which sets are used (as evidenced through other decisions too) but also the ways in which they could be used.

mairwen85 · November 2020

Because ZOS are gloriously consistent at being inconsistent.

VaranisArano · November 2020

Dragonnord wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

One Tamriel's smart loot.
Most weapons that can't proc their 5th piece bonus got removed with One Tamriel. Knightmare's 5th piece bonus requires melee damage to proc, so staves would have been removed.

ZOS has generally stopped doing this with later sets because they finally figured out that people really want stuff like Bow of the Viper even though it can't proc the 5th effect. Also, it made more sense back when 2-handed weapons only counted for one set bonus; now it really doesn't.

What? And who said a staff can't do damage in melee range? Noble Duelist set HAS staves and procs with melee damage.

Melee means CLOSE combat damage and YOU CAN use a staff in close combat, again, like Noble Duelist that DOES proc.

The confusion regarding what exactly "melee damage required" proc sets proc from is probably another reason why ZOS has moved away from One Tamriel's smart loot system, in which they specifically said: "Sets that grant a bonus to melee damage will now drop more intelligently (i.e. a set with melee damage will no longer drop with a bow or stave)."

So that's what happened to Knightmare, and other sets like Viper's Sting and Advancing Yokeda.
Knightmare
"When you deal melee damage, you apply Minor Maim to all enemies within 8 meters of you for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%."

Viper's Sting
"When you deal damage with a melee attack, you deal an additional 6400 Poison Damage over 4 seconds."

Advancing Yokeda
"When you deal melee damage, your Critical Strike rating is increased by 305 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 10 times."

Vs Noble Duelist
"When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack in melee range, you cause your Light and Heavy Attacks to deal an additional 1811 damage for 5 seconds."

Its worth noting that ZOS has reversed this stance with newer sets, so by Summerset's release we have Soldier of Anguish which has all of its weapons, but a proc requirement of: "Your melee Light Attacks place a ring on the ground that explodes after 1.3 seconds, applying 4830 Heal Absorption to all enemies hit for 4 seconds, negating the next 4830 points of Healing Done. "

All I can say is that it clearly made sense to ZOS...