Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

Joinovikova wrote: »

what we need masive counter skill for ball idiots

Tbh. The only way this can be achieved is to either add some skills / sets that have "you and your group" - but the opposite, those will be working better when solo. Just like purge has a cost & "Cleanse yourself and your group" - meaning that it is very useful & cheap in a group (as cost per player is low), but is kinda useless and way to expensive to run when solo.

Other way is to add some kind of global buff / de-buff system (similar to battle spirit) that will scale with group size and provide stronger effect the larger the group is.

Either way, sooner or later ZOS will have to do something like this. Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. They can balance skills & sets as much as they want, but in a group environment, everything (no matter how "well balanced" a skill or set is), - it becomes busted, because of how groups work.

The point is: Every time ZOS wanted to introduce some kind of counter to ball groups, a set or skill or whatever - it only empowered those groups even more. Even a recent buff to Vicious Death set made ball groups stronger as they were all running it during AOE cooldown test - as a supplement for the lack of ability t spam AOE. And it worked.
Also - if you look at some questionable balancing problems the game has - it always has something to do with "group environment". It is never something solo - player related.

Upcoming changes to limit groups to 12 in cyro might be a step in a right direction, but I am remaining sceptical. But imho until ZOS will figure out how to "globally" balance groups (like global buff / de-buff system for example) the whole game will have this vicious cycle of nerf-buff-nerf-buff, that players hate in general - and it made probably a lot of players to quit the game.

Is above post nerf templar post?

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

After two hours of reading forums posts in boredom this may be the single most accurate statement I've read all night. Add in the upcoming healing changes and how obliterating siege will be on ungrouped players and the dominance displayed by organized purge groups against random players already occurring in cyrodiil will be increased by a exponential rate.

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

You seem to not understand how purge currently works,

per cast it removes 3 debuffs from 6 people. It does not instantly clear all negative effects from an entire 12m group.
The only thing which can do that is a purify synergy (assuming the player is in range of the circle and each player hits it).
Purify has a cooldown of 20 seconds.

In comparison, wardens have a built in purge, one debuff every 5 seconds, Necro's have a self purge (3 effects iirc) and templars have a 3 or 5 effect purge too. There are also various armour sets in the game which provide both self purge and group purge utility.

Hope this helps

What's worse is that the ball groups operate as they are now without regard to the server performance they cause. This is ignorance of the highest order.

I propose a cooldown on all purging abilities scaling with the number of members in a group while in Cyrodiil. Lets say 2 seconds per member.

I understand that those that run in these groups will react negatively because they aren't being allowed to play how they want, but in the end they know that their tactics are causing server wide performance issues... which stops EVERYONE else from playing how they want. A line has to be drawn. Put a scaling cooldown on all purge abilitiies when in Cyrodiil and see how things go from there.

Of course, this will not stop a ball group from running at all...and there will still be server performance issues when they are. But as I'm sure you've all noticed...as soon as the ball group finally dies...server performance goes back to somewhat normal until they attack again. With a scaling cooldown on all purges, these groups may last 5-10 minutes doing what they do now as opposed to running around for 30 mins to an hour without dying and creating lag the entire time they do.

Buffing inevitable det and nerfing prox det would be next on the agenda if purge cooldowns aren't sufficient.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

You seem to not understand how purge currently works,

per cast it removes 3 debuffs from 6 people. It does not instantly clear all negative effects from an entire 12m group.
The only thing which can do that is a purify synergy (assuming the player is in range of the circle and each player hits it).
Purify has a cooldown of 20 seconds.

In comparison, wardens have a built in purge, one debuff every 5 seconds, Necro's have a self purge (3 effects iirc) and templars have a 3 or 5 effect purge too. There are also various armour sets in the game which provide both self purge and group purge utility.

Hope this helps

12 people clicking that spell each 3 seconds makes the difference, and that is whats happening with every ball group.

And you really think that aoe effects are the reason for that?!


Thats exactly why templar are *** now in most cases, cause of an argumentation like this and zenimax reacts...

There are and were tanky badass groups all time in ESO and they simply use teamplay and stuff like teamspeak or discord in backround to communicate and make there attacks more precise...

Hearing about all the flamers here is the main reason why we have a disbalance in PvP. To break it, Zenimax must test there game itself, maybe hear about what just some experienced streamers say and simply break there own staff to get a good working PvE and PvP balance...

Its many more, then simply nerfing again 1 part... currently the major differences of your effectivity in every part of the game, isnt the build you use.. Its the stuff you wear and thats a problem in my opinion!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

You seem to not understand how purge currently works,

per cast it removes 3 debuffs from 6 people. It does not instantly clear all negative effects from an entire 12m group.
The only thing which can do that is a purify synergy (assuming the player is in range of the circle and each player hits it).
Purify has a cooldown of 20 seconds.

In comparison, wardens have a built in purge, one debuff every 5 seconds, Necro's have a self purge (3 effects iirc) and templars have a 3 or 5 effect purge too. There are also various armour sets in the game which provide both self purge and group purge utility.

Hope this helps

Guilds often have special event nights or whatever so here is a nice one you can pitch your guildies.
Do a pvp raidnight, without anyone in the raid having purge slotted. Just for fun.
And if you like analyzing and reviewing, you can compare the results of the night to one where you run your usual setup.
Record it nd put it on youtube. Im genuinely curious as to how that would go.

Edit: Ow and no cheating, so no purge sets either lol

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

I haven’t ever been in a ball group but it could be; that whenever you see a “ball group” the reason the server goes bonkers is because ball groups usually show up where there is a fat-ass faction stack Zerg. So maybe you existing in that stack and the stack existing is what makes the lag happen. The ball group showing up is just because they see the AP buffet open. Everyone in that faction stack is spamming abilities too; receiving free rapid regens; spamming siege ; etc. if you really don’t want tight ball groups to exists; then stop zerging. I guarantee if huge Zerg stacks didn’t exist they would break apart into small scale groups. Or I guess enjoy zerging people down 4 to 5 at a time but I doubt that lol.

Its a chicken or the egg thing right? I know our group (typically 12-14) has fought other ballgroups of a similar size and some nights the game is fine, some nights it's unplayable.

We even used to run a stam comp with practically no purges and it was the same thing. Some raids the lag was there, others it wasn't. There's a bigger issue than a group spamming one skill.

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

You seem to not understand how purge currently works,

per cast it removes 3 debuffs from 6 people. It does not instantly clear all negative effects from an entire 12m group.
The only thing which can do that is a purify synergy (assuming the player is in range of the circle and each player hits it).
Purify has a cooldown of 20 seconds.

In comparison, wardens have a built in purge, one debuff every 5 seconds, Necro's have a self purge (3 effects iirc) and templars have a 3 or 5 effect purge too. There are also various armour sets in the game which provide both self purge and group purge utility.

Hope this helps

12 people clicking that spell each 3 seconds makes the difference, and that is whats happening with every ball group.

Except that it isn't. Remember that time you were running in a new ball group on dc side. Did you have purge slotted and use it every 3 seconds?

Daffen wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Nerf purge, make it single target = no more ball groups.

But zos cant read their data. It has been 5 years, but the most OP ability in PvP has remained untouched.

If purge was single target groups will still exist and function completely fine.

From ZOS's post 'ball groups' are not the problem causing lag it's the faction stacks and 24m zerg groups. Hence why they 'liked the behaviour changes' when they reduced groups to 12. (most good groups run 8-12 already).

You sure? They won't function at all. Here is why:

1) Negative CC Effects won't be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
2) AoE Dots wont be instantly cleared from the entire group by clicking 1 button.
3) Same goes for siege, making siege actually work against a Ball Group.

The ability is too strong and only favors the ball groups. Nothing else. There is only so much damage the group can outheal. They wouldn't even outheal 3 oils poured on them if it wasn't for Purge actually making that useless.

@ZOS_GinaBruno should i collect the data myself using addons and video footage to confirm to your Data/PvP analysts that the ability has been overperforming and is the cause of lag?

We didnt have lag due to tests NOT because people were not spamming abilities. We didnt have lag because there were no ball groups. Ball groups exist only because Purge allows them to. Well, yeah, there were ball groups - but they died to randoms using aoe dots and siege, which is the way it should be - punished for being out of position.

You seem to not understand how purge currently works,

per cast it removes 3 debuffs from 6 people. It does not instantly clear all negative effects from an entire 12m group.
The only thing which can do that is a purify synergy (assuming the player is in range of the circle and each player hits it).
Purify has a cooldown of 20 seconds.

In comparison, wardens have a built in purge, one debuff every 5 seconds, Necro's have a self purge (3 effects iirc) and templars have a 3 or 5 effect purge too. There are also various armour sets in the game which provide both self purge and group purge utility.

Hope this helps

12 people clicking that spell each 3 seconds makes the difference, and that is whats happening with every ball group.

Only support roles in ball groups use purge, around 3 people in a 12 man group usually magsorcs or magnecro. I dont play support role in ball groups so i dont know how to play that but i highly doubt they spam purge all the time. When we go offensive they usually focus on stunning everyone, rooting them, providing synergies and negating/colossus.

They don't spam purge all the time (well at least good support players don't).

The easy way to see if a ball group is spamming purge is to spam them with innevitable det. The vast majority of the time they are indeed spamming purge...and only stop spamming it if someone is hitting them with a det that's doing significant damage. This in itself tells you that in order to make innevitable det useful for its intended purpose it needs a significant buff. The fact that purge is being used as frequently as it is tells you that it needs a cooldown.

Xiomaro wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

I haven’t ever been in a ball group but it could be; that whenever you see a “ball group” the reason the server goes bonkers is because ball groups usually show up where there is a fat-ass faction stack Zerg. So maybe you existing in that stack and the stack existing is what makes the lag happen. The ball group showing up is just because they see the AP buffet open. Everyone in that faction stack is spamming abilities too; receiving free rapid regens; spamming siege ; etc. if you really don’t want tight ball groups to exists; then stop zerging. I guarantee if huge Zerg stacks didn’t exist they would break apart into small scale groups. Or I guess enjoy zerging people down 4 to 5 at a time but I doubt that lol.

I don't see the point in blaming players. If the game is incentivising a playstyle that degrades server performance, the rewards for that playstyle need to be adjusted.

But mindless faction stacking and zerging degrades server performance more than a ball group. Ball groups farm mindless zergs. If anything; they are doing gods work.

Kartalin wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Izanagi is right all players in a ballgroup dont spam purge there is no need for that. You can for example use the RdK group tools addon which tells a purger if the group members are seriously debuffed.

I do sometimes wonder if addons such as that aren't a contributing factor with the data they collect. But a friend told me he believes the main culprit is speed -- the game can't keep up with the speed some of these groups are moving at so it freaks out and lags, and the faster group wins.

I have no idea, probably a little bit of everything combined together, along with outdated servers.

ZOS could easily disable the addons used as a test but I very much doubt that is the issue. For me its only ever been a major problem when 24m groups start to stack with their factions and spam heal. Hopefully the reduction in group size and healing limits will help but who knows at this point.