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End game stamina groups....
Do these actually exist? I've spent a lot of time on ESO logs looking to see how many actual parses are out there. How can a game like this almost completely eliminate 50% of it dps classes (stamina) out of end game PvE? This is very disheartening to me feeling like I have to run around with a little stick to kill the biggest enemies, while huge axes, swords, and hammer are of no use other than PvP. Is this the actual intent to ESO? Magicka for PvE and stamina for PvP?
4
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The issue is the punishing melee mechanics that melee have to deal with that ranged classes do not.
1. Boss ports across the room- melee dps stops until you can catch up.
2. Boss puts down 5-8ft aoe that shreds anyone in it- (like vCloudrest mini bosses etc) melee have to step out of range to avoid dying or pause to heal.
3. Adds spawn all over the room- gotta catch up to them to hit them.
Only two solutions are to either change the mechanics or like other mmos make melee damage outclass magika/ranged dps significantly.10 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems like stamina is popular in trials this patch. They got some nice buffs, like more sustain and Stamden double shalks. Personally I prefer Mag builds.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Seems like stamina is popular in trials this patch. They got some nice buffs, like more sustain and Stamden double shalks. Personally I prefer Mag builds.
This patch my mag dps went up, but the winner for sure was Stamden, from zero to hero because of the change to shalks. Looks like 1 bar jabplar also got a massive buff. Enjoy it while you can fellow stamlords because it won’t last, it never does.1 -
ShawnLaRock✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stacking can usually happen within melee / close skill range - so I can get heals, and only switch to ranged bar if I need to reposition or buff / de-buff.
S.0 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse1 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much4 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.1 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.
Stam dont need hircine to sustain. You got buff to sustain as stam too from orbs, symphony, new restro staff, etc. Magicka will still have harder time to sustain (stamina is harder to survive tho) because if you don't get resources from other sources (bad positioning, low uptime of buffs or magicka steal, performing mechanics without support like ss portals on navi).
If you want to talk about stamina problems, talk about range mechanics, punishment for melee (mostly in 4 man content and vAS, vCR), survivability. Sustain is not an issue5 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.
Stam dont need hircine to sustain. You got buff to sustain as stam too from orbs, symphony, new restro staff, etc. Magicka will still have harder time to sustain (stamina is harder to survive tho) because if you don't get resources from other sources (bad positioning, low uptime of buffs or magicka steal, performing mechanics without support like ss portals on navi).
If you want to talk about stamina problems, talk about range mechanics, punishment for melee (mostly in 4 man content and vAS, vCR), survivability. Sustain is not an issue
All of which magicka has access to aswell on top of Hollowfang, magickasteal and Worms.
As I said, group content you're swimming is magicka sustain. Not sure where you want to go with this? Magicka has more sustain options.. that's how it is.
Also as I said you don't use up your main ressource pool when you sprint/block/dodge
Stamina you have to sprint from add to boss to add. When you sprint your stamina recovery is literally 0.. It's actually less since you consume it.
Magicka acutally gains ressources if they have to sprint because it's used from an entirely different ressource pool.
Not that they would have to do that because they're ranged which is also a point I made.
I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing lol. it's so weird but hey you do you.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.
Stam dont need hircine to sustain. You got buff to sustain as stam too from orbs, symphony, new restro staff, etc. Magicka will still have harder time to sustain (stamina is harder to survive tho) because if you don't get resources from other sources (bad positioning, low uptime of buffs or magicka steal, performing mechanics without support like ss portals on navi).
If you want to talk about stamina problems, talk about range mechanics, punishment for melee (mostly in 4 man content and vAS, vCR), survivability. Sustain is not an issue
All of which magicka has access to aswell on top of Hollowfang, magickasteal and Worms.
As I said, group content you're swimming is magicka sustain. Not sure where you want to go with this? Magicka has more sustain options.. that's how it is.
Why stamina sustain is better:
1. 7 medium is more power and more sustain, unlike mag that has to chose between 5/1/1 7/0/0 or 6/0/1.
2. Stamina skills cost around 300 less, to offset the old magicka steal, that now gives only 164.
3. Soul trap every 10th skill means every 10 skills you have a free cast, unlike mag that has it every 18~ skills (trap beast).
4. Less aoe skills, aoe skills cost more by designs and stamina characters kinda lacks them. Unless you are warden. Then it is cheap af anyway too.
5. More strong magicka cost skills in class kit, most of them usually are aoe too (Templar ritual, NB shade, necro self synergy).
6. Hail's stronger morph has longer refresh time than wall's strong morph, less sustain strain recasting your high cost skill less times.
7. Support can bring more damage buffs into group, instead of running hollowfang, shorter fights=less sustain needed.
Now take this whole list. And compare it to the only thing magicka has that stamina doesn't. Hollowfang. Lol. This joke of 250 mag/s is barely enough to offset points 1 and 2.
Edit: and about dodging, as long as you don't abuse it (and you definitely shouldn't in organized PvE) without the ramping costs, it kinda offsets the gcd you lost using it. Medium armor makes sure of that.Edited by zvavi on November 13, 2020 5:37AM6 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭On magicka even with all the sustain sets and synergies I am still casting spell symmetry just to stay in the fight. On stam I can fire off skill after skill in my 7 medium armour setup and drink potions and stay above 60% as long as I don’t have to roll dodge or break free constantly. Even the running during mobile fights is mostly pointless especially if playing Orc because your class passive has you moving faster than the tank and you should never get ahead of your tanks. The time you spend moving around in boss fights like in Cloudrest is when you recast your buffs on stam. I look at it as a rotation reset back to your precast and rotation begins when you reach the boss then reset and do it again. Cloudrest as an example fits neatly into stamblade and stamden buff uptimes. Also in the event your stam does dry up heavy attacking especially with DW restore it quickly enough that your rotation has minimal interruption. You literally heavy attack and continue losing a second on your dot uptimes but you can still sting it together while dropping minimal dps at that point. On mag when you have to heavy attack your dps falls way off. Stam has the advantage in sustain department for sure.2 -
jm42✭✭✭✭I want to have true stam ranged DD too, because current bow/bow builds are underperforming much1 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.
Stam dont need hircine to sustain. You got buff to sustain as stam too from orbs, symphony, new restro staff, etc. Magicka will still have harder time to sustain (stamina is harder to survive tho) because if you don't get resources from other sources (bad positioning, low uptime of buffs or magicka steal, performing mechanics without support like ss portals on navi).
If you want to talk about stamina problems, talk about range mechanics, punishment for melee (mostly in 4 man content and vAS, vCR), survivability. Sustain is not an issue
All of which magicka has access to aswell on top of Hollowfang, magickasteal and Worms.
As I said, group content you're swimming is magicka sustain. Not sure where you want to go with this? Magicka has more sustain options.. that's how it is.
Also as I said you don't use up your main ressource pool when you sprint/block/dodge
Stamina you have to sprint from add to boss to add. When you sprint your stamina recovery is literally 0.. It's actually less since you consume it.
Magicka acutally gains ressources if they have to sprint because it's used from an entirely different ressource pool.
Not that they would have to do that because they're ranged which is also a point I made.
I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing lol. it's so weird but hey you do you.
Mag sustain is so bad now that 2 Hollow healers are being used, yes mag has the variety but it's kinda necessary for them. Also, there's literally no reason to bring up sprint, no one should ever be sprinting for that long In a trial.1 -
Scarkii✭✭✭the reasons people prefer mag is simply because they have much more cleave, have basically no risk of dying, can range and not lose dps and theres a lot more support sets for magicka eg hollowfang"Even the slightest amount of courage can change the tides of War"
Former DK main
Characters - Templar - Sharaji EP/ DK - S'avira EP1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭the reasons people prefer mag is simply because they have much more cleave, have basically no risk of dying, can range and not lose dps and theres a lot more support sets for magicka eg hollowfang
Stam doesn't need those support sets and can perfectly self sustain, just give us pure damage buffs and heals. Moving to range isn't that big a loss considering stam weapon damage is much higher than mag spell damage, the lost dps is recovered when repositioned. Truth is stam hits harder which more than makes up for a dropped gcd here or there vs mag where you have to constantly layer your dps, and off positioning will decimate it and cost additional resources to reapply, just because I can hit from range, doesn't mean I'm going to hit hard, not without all the dots and buffs and full healer support kit required to even come close to what stam reems off with a little fancy foot work. Both have pros and cons and as others have listed, people should be choosing composition based on player ability and what is necessary for the encounter.1 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »The mechs are extremely punishing if you're forced to be up close all the time.
When you're forced out of melee range you loose like 75% of your killing power, maybe you can fire an endless hail or poison injection..
Sustain is so much easier on Magicka... Magicka steal, hollowfang, Worms
You don't drain your block/break free/roll dodge pool while you parse
Sustain is terrible on magicka, i dont know what you are talking about. Stam sustain is easy af, mag without group support have big problems to sustain. And stam group dont need to search for as many source of resources as mag groups. Main problem of stamina are mechanics that favor range too much
Which is not really an issue when we're talking 12 man group content, which you know.. the thread is about lmfaooo
In mag trials you're swimming in magicka, stams are left to their own short of a hircine.
I can't speak to Mag sustain but stam sustain is a zero issue in trials. Like not even close.
I run bi-stat food and have no issues with sustaining throughout a fight.
The amount of misinformation presented on these forums is truly staggering sometimes.2 -
Thanks for all of the input everyone. I didn't mean to start such a debate, but from the feedback, its clear that magicka dps is favored due to the ease of play and mechanics. My frustration truly comes from my guild discord calendar being full of runs that emphasize magicka dps only. I guess its something that I will have to deal with if I want to progress with those guys. It really seems like a HUGE oversight by Zos allowing end game to be so heavily favored towards magicka to the majority of the community.0
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montiferus✭✭✭✭✭phil.maricel08ub17_ESO wrote: »Thanks for all of the input everyone. I didn't mean to start such a debate, but from the feedback, its clear that magicka dps is favored due to the ease of play and mechanics. My frustration truly comes from my guild discord calendar being full of runs that emphasize magicka dps only. I guess its something that I will have to deal with if I want to progress with those guys. It really seems like a HUGE oversight by Zos allowing end game to be so heavily favored towards magicka to the majority of the community.
There is definitely a heavy mag bias in a lot of trial guild/discords for sure and it is super frustrating. I've left a few as I could tell there were certain trials they just wouldn't bring stam. It is just another oversight in a long list by ZOS. It also a myopic approach by raid leads who think only mag can complete end game content.
That said there are still guilds out there who will take stam just need to look a little harder.0 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭phil.maricel08ub17_ESO wrote: »Thanks for all of the input everyone. I didn't mean to start such a debate, but from the feedback, its clear that magicka dps is favored due to the ease of play and mechanics. My frustration truly comes from my guild discord calendar being full of runs that emphasize magicka dps only. I guess its something that I will have to deal with if I want to progress with those guys. It really seems like a HUGE oversight by Zos allowing end game to be so heavily favored towards magicka to the majority of the community.
If you are good you should be able to bring stam to vCraglorn, vMoL, vHoF, vSS without problems, these trials are stam friendly. vKA is accessible for 4 stams, 4 mag dds because of mechanics. If you are really good then you can show that in vAS and vCR as bow bow but it requires a lot of knowledge and is definietely easier to learn on mag.
Overall if you are truly good, play whatever you like. If you are still inexperience or too weak for some content, gain knowledge and strength by beating content with a class that have easier time there, then go with your favorite.
If you are dps beast who know how to dance with stam in places like vCR HM, no raidleader will say you "no" just because you are stam (unless your group have heavy class restrictions which is only needed for score pushing groups)1 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭phil.maricel08ub17_ESO wrote: »Thanks for all of the input everyone. I didn't mean to start such a debate, but from the feedback, its clear that magicka dps is favored due to the ease of play and mechanics. My frustration truly comes from my guild discord calendar being full of runs that emphasize magicka dps only. I guess its something that I will have to deal with if I want to progress with those guys. It really seems like a HUGE oversight by Zos allowing end game to be so heavily favored towards magicka to the majority of the community.
Magicka is definitely much safer and, IMO easier... or else the play style just agrees with me more
Anyway, I've run plenty of vet non-Crag trials and gotten my butt kicked by stam DDs of all specs, so it's definitely possible to do really well, but unfortunately, it's also more difficult. In the end I think that if you're good at and comfortable with a class, you'll be able to make it work. 0 -
ShawnLaRock✭✭✭✭✭
✭It’s different if you are a stam, and are the guy who runs around behind mobs / mini-bosses to interrupt / debuff / stun... ‘cause you (read: I) are never in heals-range a lot of the time, anyway.
S.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »phil.maricel08ub17_ESO wrote: »Thanks for all of the input everyone. I didn't mean to start such a debate, but from the feedback, its clear that magicka dps is favored due to the ease of play and mechanics. My frustration truly comes from my guild discord calendar being full of runs that emphasize magicka dps only. I guess its something that I will have to deal with if I want to progress with those guys. It really seems like a HUGE oversight by Zos allowing end game to be so heavily favored towards magicka to the majority of the community.
Magicka is definitely much safer and, IMO easier... or else the play style just agrees with me more Anyway, I've run plenty of vet non-Crag trials and gotten my butt kicked by stam DDs of all specs, so it's definitely possible to do really well, but unfortunately, it's also more difficult. In the end I think that if you're good at and comfortable with a class, you'll be able to make it work.
I feel a whole lot more secure on my Stamden with 22k HP buffed in melee range than I do with 17.8k HP from the same range on my MagDK. I can’t miss a block on the DK and the healers need to be really on point for me to survive. Stamden I can make a few flubs and generally be OK.0 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Stamden and MagDK, they are worlds apart when it comes to survivability. Compare Stamden with Magblade, then you'll feel equally secure.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I feel a whole lot more secure on my Stamden with 22k HP buffed in melee range than I do with 17.8k HP from the same range on my MagDK. I can’t miss a block on the DK and the healers need to be really on point for me to survive. Stamden I can make a few flubs and generally be OK.---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach0 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Numbers speak for themselves. Look at eso logs and you will see that all the content circles around magica. Zos has all the statistics about clears, titles, achievements etc per class, race, what skills being used etc. Not sure why they haven't done anything about it. 90% of the content is made mag in mind and they released another (vateshran hollows) lol.
Stam is only for dummy parsing or RP. And yes I know you can do all content with stam if you're good enough but why should I if it's so much easier with mag.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Stamden and MagDK, they are worlds apart when it comes to survivability. Compare Stamden with Magblade, then you'll feel equally secure.Everest_Lionheart wrote: »I feel a whole lot more secure on my Stamden with 22k HP buffed in melee range than I do with 17.8k HP from the same range on my MagDK. I can’t miss a block on the DK and the healers need to be really on point for me to survive. Stamden I can make a few flubs and generally be OK.
I feel you on magblade too. Biggest issue with my on MagDK is spell symmetry for sustain. You must not use that skill during certain mechanics or it’s a death sentence. Half the vet trials I just say forget it and slot coagulating blood instead and resort to heavy attacks especially when doing HM. It’s a DPS loss but better than the alternative of dead on the floor.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭Numbers speak for themselves. Look at eso logs and you will see that all the content circles around magica. Zos has all the statistics about clears, titles, achievements etc per class, race, what skills being used etc. Not sure why they haven't done anything about it. 90% of the content is made mag in mind and they released another (vateshran hollows) lol.
Stam is only for dummy parsing or RP. And yes I know you can do all content with stam if you're good enough but why should I if it's so much easier with mag.
Vatershran on Stam is completely bonkers. There isn’t enough stam to go around between mechanics and actually pushing the bosses through certain phases. Oh sure you can take a beating but it does little good once things start to overlap. Stam is fun though in a more controlled environment where every add isn’t a ranged add an you can move around more freely.0 -
magnusthorek✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As long as the change allows a magicka templar to ALSO eat this cake like a flurry-stamina/jabplar would, that would be nice. Magplar already suffered enough with the nerf to have to compensate (even more) to catch-up with stamina classesFoodbagger wrote: »...or like other mmos make melee damage outclass magika/ranged dps significantly.
I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
I'm quite good at genetics (as a subset of biology) because I am an expert (which I know is a tautology).
My xenoscience studies range from urban to agrarian, I am the very model of a Scientist Salarian.0