Rapid Maneuver compromise thread!

WiseSky · November 2020

so happy I leveled my crafters to level 5 during the double ap event right before the change

WoodenHeart · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

I barely play at all anymore... I was so used to Rapids for YEARS and without it this game feels like I'm stuck at a snail's pace instead of my normal speed. It's AWFUL and I hope this gets changed back or at least something where I don't have to drag all my characters (both NA and EU) to PvP, which makes me nervous and uncomfortable. I play games to have fun, not to feel threatened and harassed.

So until this is resolved, I guess I'll log in sometimes for the daily rewards. At least this month means I'm not missing anything.

Guyle · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

WoodenHeart wrote: »

I barely play at all anymore... I was so used to Rapids for YEARS and without it this game feels like I'm stuck at a snail's pace instead of my normal speed. It's AWFUL and I hope this gets changed back or at least something where I don't have to drag all my characters (both NA and EU) to PvP, which makes me nervous and uncomfortable. I play games to have fun, not to feel threatened and harassed.

So until this is resolved, I guess I'll log in sometimes for the daily rewards. At least this month means I'm not missing anything.

That is kind of the solution at this point, as I am fairly certain they are never going to undo this change. Personally, I am probably never going to use any of my toons that lost it for anything more than daily crafting writs, and any and all new toons will be relegated to the realm of storage, as I just don't want to ever go through the tediousness of grinding to get rapids just to make the tediousness of farming skyshards a little more tolerable. We could buy the skill lines, but as this was obviously designed to get ppl to buy the skill lines in the first place, and I have a huge problem with that kind of tactic, I will not be a fool and dance to their tune. They can twist our arms, but we can always just walk away. Painful is a word that I am associating with this game more and more these days.

Jaraal · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Michae wrote: »

I barely use rapids, I use vigor all the time. So I prefer to have it early on my alts.

Nobody's asking for Vigor to be touched in any way. This is entirely about having a skill we earned and used for six years taken away for no good reason.

EvilAutoTech · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

In every one of these threads, someone claims that the ZOS solution must have been the easiest way to give Vigor earlier. I cannot believe this.

Step 1: Change requirements for Vigor from Assault 5 to Assault 3.

Step 2: Enjoy.

Compared to:

Step 1: Change requirements for Vigor from Assault 5 to Assault 3.

Step 2: Change requirements for Rapid Maneuvers to Assault 5.

Step 3: Make solutions available in the Crown store.

Step 4: Harvest the salt from player's tears.

Which sounds easier to you?

Jierdanit · November 2020

No change

Anyron wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

[snip] They remain unresolved questions until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of [snip] opinions that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:
Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

[Edited for Misinformation]

Same goes for me. I am pvp player and i dont want to be forced to play pve.

But, you know, when i want some set or skillline, like undaunted, i have to grind for it too.
They did what they did. You cant change it.

Completely agree with that. The amount of time PvPers have to grind PvE to get the sets they want by far outweighs the amount of time you need to PvP to get Rapids.

Assault 5 is easily achievable in about 2 hours, while PvE can take days or weeks (ofc usually not in playtime) due to the terrible rng forcing you to do the same dungeon or arena dozens of times before you get lucky enough to actually get the gear piece you want.

So while i do not really have a problem with Rapids being easier to get, I do think that its just ridiculous to have PvE players cry that they have to grind some PvP now while PvP players had to grind PvE forever.

Minyassa · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

I use Vigor on my main, but that was a choice that was one of many available choices as I am a sorc, I could have used some other method of self-healing. So I ground for it because I wanted it, not because I was suffering from the lack of it. I have *seen* people left behind in groups for lack of Rapids. That affect new players or people with new characters the hardest, whereas picking and choosing which PvP combat skill you want to add to your PvE build is not something that new players tend to be involved with at the same time they are needing Rapids for grinding. Some form of compromise needs to happen.

Joinovikova · November 2020

No change

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I feel the discussion on Rapid Maneuver remains unresolved until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of conclusions that I have made that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:
Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

So they also shoudl remove undaunted passive to force all pvp player to play repetitive boring pve content ...

CMDR_Un1k0rn · November 2020

No change

Siege shield is very useful if you actually play in Cyrodiil.

Still in full support of the switch ZOS made.

It's 98k AP. I did the maths.

Go into Cyrodiil as soon as you hit level 10. Join a group. Hit keeps. Take quests. You will have Assault/Support 5 in a matter of an hour. I am not joking.

Stick with it and you might even get emperor. I nearly did, but missed by 4K AP. RIP me.

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Siege shield is very useful if you actually play in Cyrodiil.

Still in full support of the switch ZOS made.

It's 98k AP. I did the maths.

Go into Cyrodiil as soon as you hit level 10. Join a group. Hit keeps. Take quests. You will have Assault/Support 5 in a matter of an hour. I am not joking.

Stick with it and you might even get emperor. I nearly did, but missed by 4K AP. RIP me.

98k ap is more like 3-4 hours depending on your luck with groups, alliance, etc. per character.

multiple alts = upwards of a WEEK of playtime of .. this thing that you, best case scenario, do not hate, but certainly do not like either.

join a group advice sounds a LOT like underwear gnomes business plan. (bonus points if anyone reading knows what I'm referring to)

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Joinovikova wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I feel the discussion on Rapid Maneuver remains unresolved until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of conclusions that I have made that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:
Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

So they also shoudl remove undaunted passive to force all pvp player to play repetitive boring pve content ...

boring is in the eye of the beholder. that said.. I'm personaly all for allowing undaunted to be earned in Cyrodil or whatever. make Cyro delve bosses give undaunted xp, or whatever else solution.

this is NOT a zero sum thing like some of you seem to think.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · November 2020

No change

Linaleah wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Siege shield is very useful if you actually play in Cyrodiil.

Still in full support of the switch ZOS made.

It's 98k AP. I did the maths.

Go into Cyrodiil as soon as you hit level 10. Join a group. Hit keeps. Take quests. You will have Assault/Support 5 in a matter of an hour. I am not joking.

Stick with it and you might even get emperor. I nearly did, but missed by 4K AP. RIP me.

98k ap is more like 3-4 hours depending on your luck with groups, alliance, etc. per character.

multiple alts = upwards of a WEEK of playtime of .. this thing that you, best case scenario, do not hate, but certainly do not like either.

join a group advice sounds a LOT like underwear gnomes business plan. (bonus points if anyone reading knows what I'm referring to)

That's why you should level the skills in Below-50. Seriously, it's so easy there it's not even funny.

Sarannah · November 2020

No change

Get over it! If you really feel this skill is that important, go get it! It is apparently worth the small effort.
By how long ago this change was made, if you still do not have it by now, you are just doing it to yourself.

There have been quite a few other changes I disliked(vampire, crystal blast), just post how you feel about them and see if ZOS does anything with it. If not, adjust and move on.

If you make a poll, do not only include the options you yourself would like as an option! But other options as well, and there were many in the large thread about this. Yet none are listed, like: Making the skill PvP only, or applying it automatically to characters who have 180 horse feeding, incorporate rapids in the base mount speed(remove rapids as a skill), etc.

ajkb78 · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

[*] The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

I haven't checked this patch, but last patch I had one character that had previously unlocked rapids but did not have the AW skill ranking required as of Stonethorn. However although the skill has a padlock over it I can still slot it and use it. Not sure if that's intentional (it seems like a sensible position) but you don't seem to lose it on any alts that already had the skill.

ajkb78 · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

LashanW wrote: »

Swapping siege shield for rapids is honestly the best solution I've heard so far.

idk wrote: »

Cloudless wrote: »

This very same list can be applied to Vigor. And Vigor is an essential skill for any stamina build, unlike Rapid Maneuver.

I agree with this comment concerning vigor being an essential skill for stam builds.

Vigor for all stam builds, nice and useful? sure. Essential? Absolutely no. I speak for pve only tho.

There's a lot of other survivability options that are available to any stam class. Dual wield: bloodthirst, blood craze. 2 hander: brawler, rally. Bow: draining shot. If you are really desperate there's also iceheart and undaunted dmg shield as survivability options. Then there's class skills. Sure stamplars and stamDKs may have the short end of the stick but other classes have good class specific survivability options. Then there's that new mythic ring. Not to mention the abundant stamina pool to dodge or block the incoming damage.

And yes, most of these options require you to be attacking, but still options like undaunted shield is available. Vigor is nice and useful, but NOT essential (in pve atleast). I'm not saying rapids is essential either, but atleast it's the only source of major gallop buff and it's used by pretty much any type of player in this game (even crafters and questers). Not just stam DDs.

Also, OP already said, none of their solutions affect vigor anyways.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Please don't change Siege Shield.

I use it on my healer/support characters not only for the skill ... but also for the added sustain through the Support passives in Cyrodiil and IC.

You serious? If anyone is using siege shield for its skill effect then they are a PvPer. They shouldn't have any trouble getting it. added sustain? Do you mean the 10% mag recovery passive? That shouldn't have any effect on your gameplay, considering ZoS just flat out added 20% more mag recovery to all potions that restore magicka.

The only time I can think that siege shield would be of use in PVE is as a means to dump magicka rapidly while fighting the Serpent in VSO. And it's certainly not an essential skill for that.

MachineGod · November 2020

No change

Once again people can't accept an outcome of a certain events. Things change. The ability to deal with that is part of a evolving MMO.

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Siege shield is very useful if you actually play in Cyrodiil.

Still in full support of the switch ZOS made.

It's 98k AP. I did the maths.

Go into Cyrodiil as soon as you hit level 10. Join a group. Hit keeps. Take quests. You will have Assault/Support 5 in a matter of an hour. I am not joking.

Stick with it and you might even get emperor. I nearly did, but missed by 4K AP. RIP me.

98k ap is more like 3-4 hours depending on your luck with groups, alliance, etc. per character.

multiple alts = upwards of a WEEK of playtime of .. this thing that you, best case scenario, do not hate, but certainly do not like either.

join a group advice sounds a LOT like underwear gnomes business plan. (bonus points if anyone reading knows what I'm referring to)

That's why you should level the skills in Below-50. Seriously, it's so easy there it's not even funny.

been there, tried there - my response still applies. and without leveled mount/rapids - even if you do enjoy pvp, its a LOT less fun, cause you keep missing the fights due to being too slow.

and no, I do not believe that ZoS will actualy do anything. I've come to terms that this is the new paradigm now. in a meantime, I'm just playing less and more importantly - buying less (and by that, I mean - no crown purchases, only one subscription instead of two and expansions at a discount ONLY).

Kartalin · November 2020

No change

98k AP really isn't that much of a barrier. You'll even be able to get the monthly 50 transmute crystal geodes on your characters while you do it if you make the campaign your home campaign for the month.

I think the change was really made because magicka characters could enter PVP for the first time and already have reliable self heals via either class skills or the resto staff, while stamina characters wouldn't have much of anything until they unlocked vigor. The Alliance War skills should be arranged with the Alliance War in mind first and foremost. The devs just thought it better to give new characters a little more survivability when they reach a destination before they shorten the time it takes to arrive at the destination by a little bit.

Elvenheart · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

Joinovikova wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I feel the discussion on Rapid Maneuver remains unresolved until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of conclusions that I have made that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:
Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

So they also shoudl remove undaunted passive to force all pvp player to play repetitive boring pve content ...

One has nothing to do with the other. This isn’t a “lower the requirement for every skill in ESO” thread. If you would like the requirements for Undaunted skills to be lowered, you should create a discussion thread/poll for that. 🙂

Calm_Fury · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

That thread shouldn't have been closed. There issue still exists. Some people were derailing the thread but there was still some good posts there.

Nice that you opened another one so we can continue.

Ekzorka · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

Rapid Maneuver was designed as one of the first tool in the big Cyrodiil. It was smart.
Now devs telling us that it's not so important, take Vigor, even if you're a MAGE.
The last months are mockery for mount riding. But, of course, devs knows better, they're playing their project, don't they?..

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Kartalin wrote: »

98k AP really isn't that much of a barrier. You'll even be able to get the monthly 50 transmute crystal geodes on your characters while you do it if you make the campaign your home campaign for the month.

I think the change was really made because magicka characters could enter PVP for the first time and already have reliable self heals via either class skills or the resto staff, while stamina characters wouldn't have much of anything until they unlocked vigor. The Alliance War skills should be arranged with the Alliance War in mind first and foremost. The devs just thought it better to give new characters a little more survivability when they reach a destination before they shorten the time it takes to arrive at the destination by a little bit.

To many, 98k AP isn't that much of a barrier. But that is not the case with everyone. Some people play ESO differently, and the fact is, Rapid Maneuver was used widely outside of PVP by a wide range of players. The increase in requirements for it negatively affected many players. I was used to it being on all of my alts, but when the change occurred, I could not get used to that. But I didn't have the emotional willpower to go into Cyrodiil to earn it back. I don't find PVP fun all the time, and when I do go in, I would much rather go in with my main Nightblade rather than an Orc Templar that specializes in holding lots of stuff and doing crafting writs.

PVP creates anxiety, as it means I would have to go against other players competitively and possibly face abuse in response. There is also the anxiety of frustration, and I would rather do things that don't frustrate me when it comes to playing ESO.

MachineGod wrote: »

Once again people can't accept an outcome of a certain events. Things change. The ability to deal with that is part of a evolving MMO.

The ability to air our concerns and have the developers listen is also part of an evolving MMO. Why do we have player housing? Players asked for it. This is also a change I have still not been able to adapt to, because there is a bit of a barrier to me getting it back on my alts.

Sarannah wrote: »

Get over it! If you really feel this skill is that important, go get it! It is apparently worth the small effort.
By how long ago this change was made, if you still do not have it by now, you are just doing it to yourself.

There have been quite a few other changes I disliked(vampire, crystal blast), just post how you feel about them and see if ZOS does anything with it. If not, adjust and move on.

If you make a poll, do not only include the options you yourself would like as an option! But other options as well, and there were many in the large thread about this. Yet none are listed, like: Making the skill PvP only, or applying it automatically to characters who have 180 horse feeding, incorporate rapids in the base mount speed(remove rapids as a skill), etc.

Anxiety is not so easy to "get over it", friend.

There are likely many other ideas that could be done, but I listed two of the most common ones. Many of the other ideas you mentioned would be more complicated to implement, these are more major changes to the gameplay. You have to consider something - the developers are busy with lots of other stuff as well. Their priority is fixing bugs. Soon their priority will be working on Updates 29 and 30. The two options I listed are possible to squeeze in an incremental update (especially lowering the requirements).

oddbasket wrote: »

Make rapids unlock at assault level 4. Level 3 is simply completing the tutorial in Cyrodiil, which already makes Vigor an easy unlock upon reaching level 10.

Level 3 to level 4 is very short to earn. Level 4 is practically just queueing for a few battlegrounds while watching YouTube videos.

Assault 2 is what you start out with, and completing the tutorial doesn't quite level you to Assault 3. However, Assault 3 is 7,300 AP (iirc) from Assault 2.

I would accept Assault 4, even though I am not thrilled about that idea. To be honest, that is still one quarter of the amount of AP required for Assault 5, it would lower the wall by a significant amount and I think I can overcome my anxiety to try and earn it back on alts that are at least specced for combat to some degree.

ZOS_Volpe · November 2020

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it went against our rules of re-creating a thread that was closed. As stated in our community rules:

Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time. As an example, if we close a thread you created and leave an explanation stating why it was closed, you may not re-create the thread.

Thank you for your understanding