Rapid Maneuver compromise thread!

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

I feel the discussion on Rapid Maneuver remains unresolved until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of conclusions that I have made that I can summarize from the previous thread:

Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.
A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.
A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.
PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.
Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment
Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.
The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.
The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.
Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.
The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.
If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:

Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.
Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

Cloudless · November 2020

No change

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Here are a list of [snip] opinions that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

This very same list can be applied to Vigor. And Vigor is an essential skill for any stamina build, unlike Rapid Maneuver.

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Yes, but neither of the compromises involve changing Vigor.

Sylvermynx · November 2020

I haven't found Vigor to be an essential skill for any of my stam characters, any more than Rapids was essential for any of my characters.

As far as the compromise ideas, not going to affect me at all anyway, though I do think either of them would work well for everyone who needs Rapids back ASAP - and I didn't vote so as not to mess up the poll, as well as because I'm not using either one, never have.

I still hope ZOS does the right thing for you guys.

Anyron · November 2020

No change

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

[snip] They remain unresolved questions until a developer comments on the compromises proposed.

Numerous ideas have been posted throughout the months of arguing. I think two of them are relatively easy to implement and would make those of us spurned by the new PVP grind requirement for Rapid Maneuver a bit happier.

Here are a list of [snip] opinions that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

Here then are the ideas to compromise on this issue, which I hope the developers take seriously and respond to eventually:
Lower the requirements to Assault 3. This would retain some degree of progression wherein Rapid Maneuver is not unlocked right away, but the effort to regain it would be much less reduced compared to several hours of PVP grind. This also makes a mostly PvE route of acquiring Rapid Maneuver feasible, as the limited amount of AP earned per day in daily town quests and Scouting reports makes reaching Assault 3 attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

There are of course other ideas that could be implemented. One recent one is a new Mythic item that automatically grants Major Gallop, or some other PvE source of Major Gallop. However, I think that would be a bit more complicated. I also did not include the idea of "reverting the change, putting Vigor back where it was before Stonethorn", because that was already commented on by Gina and is excluded from consideration. I think either one of the above compromises/solutions can be implemented in an incremental patch, and hopefully done so before the next event that might require people to ride to a location in a timely manner. The Lost Treasures of Skyrim made me feel a bit bad for those who couldn't get to Harrowstorms in time due to no Rapid Maneuver. Let's not have a repeat of that!

I have also seen talk of putting Rapid Maneuver in a non-PVP skill line entirely, but this also sounds a bit messy. Lowering the requirements, at the very least, involves changing a single variable, while swapping it with Siege Shield is a bit more involved. But I have yet to hear a good reason why a compromise cannot be considered and implemented. Still, I ask of all of you to keep this conversation civil.

[Edited for Misinformation]

Same goes for me. I am pvp player and i dont want to be forced to play pve.

But, you know, when i want some set or skillline, like undaunted, i have to grind for it too.
They did what they did. You cant change it.

zaria · November 2020

Well rapid is broken now anyway.

warabi · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

I was pretty mad when the last topic got closed, but I'm glad GregoryV is being reasonable and letting us continue this discussion since a lot of people are quite upset about this change. I do not want to pvp in any capacity and I used rapid on every single one of my characters. At least swapping Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield is a decent compromise compared to what we have right now.

Nestor · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

Getting Vigor unlocked earlier has enhanced none of my characters, even the Stamina ones I play

Losing Rapids has detrimentally affected all of my characters.

I am fine that Vigor is easier to get, I hate that Rapids is so hard to get back. A skill I had for 6 years, on every Alt. Vigor I have never had.

warabi · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

One thing I forgot to say is that I'd rather Rapid go back to the way it was (thus no one has to pvp if they don't want to and simply do the Cyro intro quest to get Rapid asap) and have Vigor/Siege Shield swapped instead. Vigor won't be as hard to get and Siege Shield is a pvp skill that you'd do pvp to get. Seems pretty logical to me.

Starlock · November 2020

Better solution - allow ALL skill line upgrades in the cash shop to be purchased with IN GAME GOLD. These never should have been offered in the cash shop without an in-game gold option to begin with as it is a classic example of solution selling. This entire problem with rapids ONLY exists because ZoS decided to engage in solution selling instead of just letting players have other means of maxing skill lines on alternate characters as a... I don't know... base game feature? You guys remember games that had new game plus modes? And it was just... you know... part of the darned game?

But we can't have nice things like that without paying at least $10-15 for it. This game, I swear....

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

either of the first 2 options are more then fine with me. I'm voting for siege shield swap mainly cause I have to pick something for the poll.

that said... at this point my hope that something will actualy change? is roughly zero.

idk · November 2020

Cloudless wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Here are a list of [snip] opinions that I can summarize from the previous thread:
Rapid Maneuver is not a PVP skill. It is used widely outside of a PVP environment.

A large number of non-PVPers use Rapid Maneuver.

A large number of players dislike PVP and prefer not to engage in that while playing ESO.

PVP, for some, can be anxiety inducing. Rapid Maneuver is now gated behind anxiety.

Among other things, the source of this anxiety could be from other players engaging in harassment

Bringing an alt that is meant for crafting, farming or PVE into Battlegrounds can invite that kind of harassment and abuse, and is thus another source of anxiety preventing people from doing so.

The loss of Rapid Maneuver on most or all alts creates an inconvenience.

The only way a player can get Rapid Maneuver back on an alt is to PVP grind (which not everyone likes), or spend crowns on the Alliance Skill Unlock. This is 3000 crowns per alt, which not everyone can afford. There should be a third option.

Absolutely no one is saying Vigor should be hard to get, or disputing the usefulness of Vigor.

The heart of the issue is this: You have a skill that was freely available and widely used for over six years, suddenly put behind a wall of anxiety, and give a good portion of the playerbase a catch 22 to either spend crowns or induce anxiety to regain this skill. This has nothing to do with PVP players having to grind Undaunted, which is something they had to do from the start and is not something that was suddenly asked of them after six years.

If it were ever as easy to get Rapids back as some claim, I would have done so by now. There are numerous reasons why I haven't, some of which I do not want to get into in this OP. Others involve anxiety, even if it is of the idea that I am annoying other players by sending in a crafting/writ alt Orc Templar barely specced for killing mudcrabs into a Battlegrounds match.

This very same list can be applied to Vigor. And Vigor is an essential skill for any stamina build, unlike Rapid Maneuver.

I agree with this comment concerning vigor being an essential skill for stam builds. Rapids is a nice to have skill.

DarcyMardin · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

I don’t care which compromise is accepted, but I ardently hope that *some* compromise will be forthcoming. I use — or used to use — Rapids on all my many characters. I’ve previously reached PvP level 5 or higher on many alts on my first 2 accounts over the years (I just got my 7 year ESO badge) by grinding AP during mid-year mayhem double AP events. I’ve never been good at PvP, so I don’t go to Cyrodiil at any other time.

But I also have a new account with a bunch of new alts who all got Rapids at character lvl 10 only to have it ripped away from them. Since they are new, with extremely slow horses, playing the game has now become a chore rather than a pleasure. PVPing with a slow horse is pretty much impossible.

To make matters worse, the main way I got AP in the past was to go into Cyrodiil solo as a healer and heal players attacking or defending keeps. Now the devs have made that impossible for solo healers. If we can’t even toss out a siege shield over a siege engine anymore if we aren’t grouped with the person running the siege engine, then what good is that siege shield skill now anyway?

All in all, I don’t consider Rapids to be a PVP skill anyway. I use it all the time and I’m a PvEer. Please give me some way to earn it back that isn’t pure unadulterated misery.

Ackwalan · November 2020

At the beginning of all this I had sympathy for the people that lost rapids, but now it's just apathy.

zvavi · November 2020

Lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3

:takes a low level to cyrodil for alliance rank 6 abilities:
:Suckish mount speed:
:No rapids either:

Definition of "fun."

rpa · November 2020

Just grind the Ring of the Wild Hunt and stsrt running. For me feels it is faster than 37 times fed horse. Steed boon, lv1 vampire with the ignore speed penalty while sneaking passive, no other speed related buffs. No I havent done timed runs, I'm not interesed in debugging this mess.

If the speed nerfs are intentional we will eventually be capped to walking speed to ease life of server hamsters.

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

rpa wrote: »

Just grind the Ring of the Wild Hunt and stsrt running. For me feels it is faster than 37 times fed horse. Steed boon, lv1 vampire with the ignore speed penalty while sneaking passive, no other speed related buffs. No I havent done timed runs, I'm not interesed in debugging this mess.

If the speed nerfs are intentional we will eventually be capped to walking speed to ease life of server hamsters.

you mean the ring that is max level? so that your lower level leveling alts cannot use it? THAT ring?

rpa · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

Just grind the Ring of the Wild Hunt and stsrt running. For me feels it is faster than 37 times fed horse. Steed boon, lv1 vampire with the ignore speed penalty while sneaking passive, no other speed related buffs. No I havent done timed runs, I'm not interesed in debugging this mess.

If the speed nerfs are intentional we will eventually be capped to walking speed to ease life of server hamsters.

you mean the ring that is max level? so that your lower level leveling alts cannot use it? THAT ring?

Well I recently created and levelled the char I grinded the ring with to 50 with only Steed boon, no problem. That's why the 37 times fed horse... I'm old and patient. But I'd like bit less bugs and servers which can take players travelling at max speed without giving up if that could be arranged.

There must be a technical reason why players need to be glued to ground because otherwise annoying customers like that does not make sense.

barney2525 · November 2020

I got nuthin against some sort of change to make it easier to get Rapid Maneuvers.

But your poll should have listed " Other " as an option.

IMHO

Taleof2Cities · November 2020

No change

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This one is my favorite as evidenced by my signature. So, Siege Shield is almost exclusively used in PVP - if it required a bit more PVP to regain, it would not be a real problem. It would not inconvenience a large portion of players. Siege Shield's temporary absence would not slow down or hinder players trying to get it back either (whereas Rapid Maneuver's absence makes it harder to keep up with a group and get to battles in Cyrodiil). The idea here is that Siege Shield occupies the second skill slot of Assault, requires Assault 5, and Rapid Maneuver then becomes the first skill in Support, requiring Support 2. This now has the effect that both Vigor and Rapid Maneuver are available as soon as the Alliance skill lines are acquired. This is the best of both worlds.

Linaleah wrote: »

either of the first 2 options are more then fine with me. I'm voting for siege shield swap mainly cause I have to pick something for the poll.

Please don't change Siege Shield.

I use it on my healer/support characters not only for the skill ... but also for the added sustain through the Support passives in Cyrodiil and IC.

Linaleah · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

rpa wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

Just grind the Ring of the Wild Hunt and stsrt running. For me feels it is faster than 37 times fed horse. Steed boon, lv1 vampire with the ignore speed penalty while sneaking passive, no other speed related buffs. No I havent done timed runs, I'm not interesed in debugging this mess.

If the speed nerfs are intentional we will eventually be capped to walking speed to ease life of server hamsters.

you mean the ring that is max level? so that your lower level leveling alts cannot use it? THAT ring?

Well I recently created and levelled the char I grinded the ring with to 50 with only Steed boon, no problem. That's why the 37 times fed horse... I'm old and patient. But I'd like bit less bugs and servers which can take players travelling at max speed without giving up if that could be arranged.

There must be a technical reason why players need to be glued to ground because otherwise annoying customers like that does not make sense.

the technical reason as far as I can tell is that switching vigor and rapids was the path of least work to give stamina specs a dedicated self heal without having to rework any of the specs and a minimum amount of programing needed to make vigor available early.

and I honestly don't think they expected people to be upset to this degree about losing early acess to rapids. they only seem to have expected that people would be too happy to not have to grind vigor anymore (and many are)

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Please don't change Siege Shield.

I use it on my healer/support characters not only for the skill ... but also for the added sustain through the Support passives in Cyrodiil and IC.

Okay, then what is the problem with lowering the requirements for Rapid Maneuver to Assault 3?

rpa · November 2020

In any case, Rapids and mount speed in general is currently bugged so its better to learn2run anyway. I do not expect it will be fixed any soon. Too bad for low lv chars in hurry.

JoeCapricorn · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Hopefully Major Gallop is fixed next Monday.

Lowering the requirements and thus making a large portion of players happy would be achievable by the November 30th patch, so I hope this poll gets the attention of the devs.

So far, 80% support some kind of compromise.

Michae · November 2020

I barely use rapids, I use vigor all the time. So I prefer to have it early on my alts.

DMuehlhausen · November 2020

I don't understand the issue...

It got moved one down..if you care that much and pvp like twice you can still get it easily...

oddbasket · November 2020

Make rapids unlock at assault level 4. Level 3 is simply completing the tutorial in Cyrodiil, which already makes Vigor an easy unlock upon reaching level 10.

Level 3 to level 4 is very short to earn. Level 4 is practically just queueing for a few battlegrounds while watching YouTube videos.

RageKing · November 2020

No change

Make it even harder to get. need fodder for the less populated campaigns

LashanW · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

Swapping siege shield for rapids is honestly the best solution I've heard so far.

idk wrote: »

Cloudless wrote: »

This very same list can be applied to Vigor. And Vigor is an essential skill for any stamina build, unlike Rapid Maneuver.

I agree with this comment concerning vigor being an essential skill for stam builds.

Vigor for all stam builds, nice and useful? sure. Essential? Absolutely no. I speak for pve only tho.

There's a lot of other survivability options that are available to any stam class. Dual wield: bloodthirst, blood craze. 2 hander: brawler, rally. Bow: draining shot. If you are really desperate there's also iceheart and undaunted dmg shield as survivability options. Then there's class skills. Sure stamplars and stamDKs may have the short end of the stick but other classes have good class specific survivability options. Then there's that new mythic ring. Not to mention the abundant stamina pool to dodge or block the incoming damage.

And yes, most of these options require you to be attacking, but still options like undaunted shield is available. Vigor is nice and useful, but NOT essential (in pve atleast). I'm not saying rapids is essential either, but atleast it's the only source of major gallop buff and it's used by pretty much any type of player in this game (even crafters and questers). Not just stam DDs.

Also, OP already said, none of their solutions affect vigor anyways.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Please don't change Siege Shield.

I use it on my healer/support characters not only for the skill ... but also for the added sustain through the Support passives in Cyrodiil and IC.

You serious? If anyone is using siege shield for its skill effect then they are a PvPer. They shouldn't have any trouble getting it. added sustain? Do you mean the 10% mag recovery passive? That shouldn't have any effect on your gameplay, considering ZoS just flat out added 20% more mag recovery to all potions that restore magicka.

LashanW · November 2020

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

It got moved one down..if you care that much and pvp like twice you can still get it easily...

Visually, yes it was moved one level down. But that is irrelevant as technically it's moved 3 levels later in alliance war skill line.

The_Old_Goat · November 2020

No change

I don't mind any changes either way but honestly we know they aren't going to happen. [Snip]

[Edited for bait]

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