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Ideas for improving players' adaptability to standard >combat< mechanics
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ThePlayer✭✭✭✭The only thing ZOS can do to improve this is to put a lock system for the various dungeons, then have the players complete all the dungeons in normal first and then gradually move on to the dungeons vet + vet dlc (similar thing to do with trials).
In addition to this improving the loot system in the most difficult dungeons, players in this way will be pushed to improve themselves or be kicked by the same group.
There is only one problem with that, ZOS does nothing and keeps doing single player zones, and dlc where nobody goes after 2 days.3 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Undaunted event
“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy1 -
Fermian✭✭✭Casual is the opposite of hardcore, not of skilled. You should use the word noob for that.
6 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When you queue for a random group, you will get all kinds of people. Expecting them to pull their weight is reasonable when you are in vet dungeons, especially dlc, but for normal you should expect a level 10 new gearless players. Because that's what the game level expected for that content.6 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only thing ZOS can do to improve this is to put a lock system for the various dungeons, then have the players complete all the dungeons in normal first and then gradually move on to the dungeons vet + vet dlc (similar thing to do with trials).
In addition to this improving the loot system in the most difficult dungeons, players in this way will be pushed to improve themselves or be kicked by the same group.
There is only one problem with that, ZOS does nothing and keeps doing single player zones, and dlc where nobody goes after 2 days.
Is that the only problem you see with your suggestion.? Because to me it interferes with the entire " play however you like " concept that they are running with..2 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"I'm so 1337 that I'm pissed off others are not that 1337"
You want groupmates up to your standards? Get a premade. Of anyone wants to run with pug, there are some nice places where they can stuck their standards and expectations.
Yes it's a MMO. See all those people running around? Yes, it's a MMO that's catering, first of all, to people who came from the specific single-player games.
I'd bet that most of the players need help for WB and public dungeons (I did). I've seen people asking for help with quest bosses. Generally, that "I can solo therefore this game is a solo game" argument is invalid even without one's hair being a bird.
No, that's the content not being ready.Another serious problem of which a solution must be urgently found. The last thing that epitomized the whole community about the "unwillingness to think" is the boss in markarth. People just go to content en masse and do not understand at all that they are NOT ready for it.
What's next? Lorebooks have too much text? Do you want players to think or not to think?2) Large Descriptions: Large descriptions of items confuse the beginner and make it difficult to understand what it does and how it works. It's the same with skills, for example, if you take the same werewolf, you will simply be stunned by how much text there is on each skill. The only solution to this is to create an in-game assistant that will in a simplified form tell and prompt "what is this" and "what can be done about it" in battle. And yes, it’s time to make it so that it would be possible to see morphs of skills when you hover it in the skill menu, and not when distributing points at the altar. Of course, the addon solves this problem, but this is one of the reasons why people cannot often compare the benefits of this or that skill.
AOE are fine. If someone wants to know what killed them, they will find out, if not, no matter how bright colours are, people will continue to stand in stupid.
Some are here for fun, not for competition. I mean, if we had all the timers and stuff in-game it would be nice, but that's not universally necessary.4) Significance of DPS and identification of the cause (lack of competitive effect). The standard rotation of skills does not show the casting time of each skill and how long it lasts, this can be confusing and greatly complicate the support of buffs / debuffs with this addon ActionDurationReminder helps a lot. In addition, no one sees DPS without Addons (LuiExtended, CombatMetrics, etc). Maybe it's time to make this main of the game?
Again: if you speak from the viewpoint of competitive endgame player, leave casual potatoes the heck alone and stay away from pugs. We don't want to play with elitists just as much as you don't want to play with "noobs".
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, did not knew it was the next event. it will be a mess the first day.
Remember the first day the newest dungeons dropped. An guild group on normal. Well I queued us, finder did not only queue us, it refused us to drop queue. Lots of lag and last boss bugged so we had to wipe.
After finishing we could not leave group. Next day it was back to normal.
One benefit is that you don't have to do an random dungeon anymore, any do for event tickets at least.
Think you have to do random for the coffer who might contain dungeon dlc motifs.
One other nice thing is that while finder still get issues during high load 4 man groups get an fast pass as they are just using the finder for sending them to dungeon not grouping.
Now one other issue is all the gogogo players running random normals to farm transmute crystals.
Teaching people to fake tank
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭iam sorry to say your remarks are flawed, casual means they pop in for 30 mins or so, but by your own words they could be in a dungeon for 1-2 hours, say 2 hours is the average of a player ingame that means if each night they log in they are playing the game for 14 hours a week, as to the markarth boss, alot in eso have zone chat turned of so dont see the comment, as to the gear sets and skills it is impossible for anyone to know everything, ZOS changes gear sets and skills and game mechanics so often to someone who plays only 2-3 ours a day this is hard to keep a track of, to understand all them is impossible unless someone has spent not just hours but weeks on try combo of sets and skills on all classes etc, but what op needs to understand that peeps can not play the same as the next person, yes peeps who do gear set vids do help but are not set in stone, as it may not help someone, as there reaction speed, pc specs, screen, keyboard, mouse, if they have a disability etc will not be taken in to account, instead of having ago, if some asks for help then give them help but having ago when they cant do the same as you is wrongMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0
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CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP forgets that he does not make the rules.
The actual rules of playing content are simple.
Pay ZOS a fee to access the game and then play whatever content you want.
There is no skill requirement to attempt any content. Never has been.
Note, I said attempt, not clear. There is a difference.
If OP needs players tailored to his skills, then he needs to recruit those players himself. That is how things work, and have always worked.
It is not hard for anyone with a basic ability to communicate civilly to do this.In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!21 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »If OP needs players tailored to his skills, then he needs to recruit those players himself. That is how things work, and have always worked.
It is not hard for anyone with a basic ability to communicate civilly to do this.
^^^THIS^^^^
Quoted for truth. Simple as that. Problem solved.
Sometimes I even wish the group finder would not exist at all. There were less complaints about "casuals" or "elitists" when it wasn't working at all (and that is, for those who weren't there back then, the entire first THREE years of ESO). We arranged groups ourselves in zones or guilds because there was no other way to do it, and it worked perfectly fine. People were straightforward in what they expected as companions. You could read stuff like "only experienced people please" just as well as "only patient people please, casual/beginners here", etc... it took of course more efforts but overall less time for better results than the automated group finder.
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on November 9, 2020 9:53AM7 -
The_Camper✭✭✭✭✭Too many casuals is an indication of a healthy MMO. Steady influx of new players keeps the game afloat and a "MMO"
Stop pugging content if you are the elitist type.19 -
derpy_cat1234✭✭✭Keep in mind ZOS is trying to raise the floor for almost 2 years now. But no matter what they try nothing changes. So "casual" imo is a mindset rather then time played/ content said time went into. There is nothing wrong with having a casual mindset of course,do whatever makes you happy,but I completely dissagree with the notion "I only play 5 hours a week,so I MUST stick to questing,harder content just take too much time".
From personal experience me and many guildies got all trial trifectas by raiding 3 times a week for 2 hours per raid. That was the only times I logged into the game other then doing writs on my chars. So about 6:30-7 hours a week. Not as "hardcore/no life" as some people expect.2 -
ruengdet2515✭✭✭It is easy.
You can solo her if you play around 3:00-9:00 AM (EU/German time)
or
wait to complete quest next year after new chapter come.0 -
JTD✭✭✭Even though I disagree no the wording from the OP i do understand the sentiment that he or she has. More than in most mmorpg's I've played there is a big gap between beginner / intermediate and expert content. The game does a bad job of explaining concepts and mechanics and even basic of the game.
This is partly the game's fault and partly the players fault. I always forget that this game attracts a lot of TES gamers who might not be of the mmorpg mindset with it's difficulty and group focused content.
The part about raising the floor and lowering the ceiling we can safely say has failed hard. You can't raise the floor if players are unwilling or unable to grasp basic mechanics of the combat/game. This goes for dps for uptimes for interrupts but also for healing and damage taken.6 -
You say casual players like its a bad thing. We (i am) are the players. I'm playing eso as the worlds most massive single player game because that's what they built to do.
Its so casual you can craft your very own set of yellow gear the minute you hit cp 160 with your own mats and skills and not worry about gear ever again and the game is too easy.
Lol multiplayer :P
The amount of effort required to change my rotation to work when im not the tank and the healer? Way too much effort.. it can happen when the planemeld is done.
The only thing i regret about not playing with others is what to do with crafting writs.. everything else i just destroy, but those 10k master writs seem like such a shame.Edited by winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO on November 9, 2020 10:30AM2 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »OP forgets that he does not make the rules.
The actual rules of playing content are simple.
Pay ZOS a fee to access the game and then play whatever content you want.
There is no skill requirement to attempt any content. Never has been.
Note, I said attempt, not clear. There is a difference.
If OP needs players tailored to his skills, then he needs to recruit those players himself. That is how things work, and have always worked.
It is not hard for anyone with a basic ability to communicate civilly to do this.
Passive aggressive, but civil. I love it.
But seriously: ESO is a MMO, that is taylored to former Singleplayer RPG players. That is a fact! How many people came over from Skyrim, I wonder? There is no denying the fact that the standards for other MMO's don't apply here. AND it is one of the core reasons of its success. Don't expect that to change.
Where I have to say the OP ( @Inaya1 ) is right is the way the game teaches how to play itself. It just does not! Nobody plays the tutorials anymore. And if you start on a new chapter you get dumped in that zone, because it's what you payed for. All the basics of the game and specifically its mechanics are very poorly taught.
The result is that people, that are not putting in an effort and time to understand and learn (that is what CASUAL means to me anyways), have no real chance to improve and hence stay bad. And because of how the game rewards and how easy it is overall some even get to be CP500 or higher until they notice: S***, I am really bad at this!
A small portion will be ignorant whatsoever. So why bother about it?
No Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO has a mind-boggling amount of content, and people play it to various degrees, depending on the time and effort they want to put into it. The game is great from this perspective. If casual players bother you, then you are doing something wrong, because in solo content you don't need anyone else, and in group content, presumably you'll go in with a premade/organized group. If it's PUGs that bother you, either avoid them entirely or go in with a DPS character, so you'll help if damage is low. There's endgame guilds or discord-based groups, so you can play with other endgamers. Listing why the game does not enable player progression is not helping; the reason is that even when the game started, and there weren't much information or guides to go with, people who wanted to improve, did so. This game is mechanics-heavy, with great combat, and it requires some work to be ready for harder content. But the thing is, not everyone wants to, and since a casual playstyle is enough for the majority of things, they don't need to either. It's a lot of time and work, not everyone can do that, and not everyone enjoys that either.2 -
craybest✭✭✭✭✭Guys, it is just a game. People play to have fun.
Stop trying to turn it into another job. Those who want to look for builds and theorycrafting will do so, others won't. Don't get angry about such a simple concept.13 -
griffrawk✭✭CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »OP forgets that he does not make the rules.
The actual rules of playing content are simple.
Pay ZOS a fee to access the game and then play whatever content you want.
There is no skill requirement to attempt any content. Never has been.
Note, I said attempt, not clear. There is a difference.
If OP needs players tailored to his skills, then he needs to recruit those players himself. That is how things work, and have always worked.
It is not hard for anyone with a basic ability to communicate civilly to do this.
This argument sounds depressingly familiar doesn't it (80k)?!0 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »people, that are not putting in an effort and time to understand and learn (that is what CASUAL means to me anyways),
Looks like we need to define what is "casual".
For example, I play every day, I have some semblance of builds on my characters, I enjoy figuring out mechanics, I can solo some group stuff and still I consider myself to be extremely casual. Because I have no real interest in hard modes, pushing my DPS, optimizing into unfun-ness or min-maxing my builds or any form of competitive play.15 -
robwolf666✭✭✭✭✭In the discussion...
I play the way I want and like to play, if other people don't like it, tough.
I'm just here to enjoy another ES game, so I will always play the way I play - not the way other people say I should play.
Personally, I don't touch group stuff anyway, except for occasionally jumping in on WB fights if I come across them.
I like doing all the quests, and sometimes just running around exploring to see what I can find. It's the way I play - I did it with Oblivion, Skyrim and now ESO. Don't like people doing that? Tough.
I'm not a big fan of MMO's, I prefer to play solo, and frankly the only reason I play ESO is that it's Elder Scrolls.
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Mythreindeer✭✭✭✭✭Everyone plays as they want and can, but people MUST calculate their strength before going into group content.
No.
They SHOULD calculate their strength before going into group content.
There is a difference.
Anyway, you are wasting your breath (keystrokes?) here. Every major MMO that has come out in the last 15 years and achieved any kind of longevity has been accused of being too casual friendly and gotten more casual friendly as time went on. And those that didn't do so died.
This is simply the reality of the modern MMO market, and it isn't going to change. Everyone talks a lot about how they want a more hardcore MMO experience, and how many other players out there also do, but every time a new MMO tries to cater to the "hardcore" crowd instead of attracting "casuals" it is a commercial flop and dies.
At least in terms of western MMO's.
Yep this is a fact. It's the natural history of the MMO. The majority of these games couldn't really survive without growing revenue and you can't grow revenue only relying on hardcore gamers. You have to soften it up for the more casual player willing to spend money to have a little fun. The more content, progression and gear gated behind by end-game mechanics the more you alienate the softer player. I don't think there's any getting around it.0 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »OP forgets that he does not make the rules.
The actual rules of playing content are simple.
Pay ZOS a fee to access the game and then play whatever content you want.
There is no skill requirement to attempt any content. Never has been.
Note, I said attempt, not clear. There is a difference.
If OP needs players tailored to his skills, then he needs to recruit those players himself. That is how things work, and have always worked.
It is not hard for anyone with a basic ability to communicate civilly to do this.
Passive aggressive, but civil. I love it.
But seriously: ESO is a MMO, that is taylored to former Singleplayer RPG players. That is a fact! How many people came over from Skyrim, I wonder? There is no denying the fact that the standards for other MMO's don't apply here. AND it is one of the core reasons of its success. Don't expect that to change.
Where I have to say the OP ( @Inaya1 ) is right is the way the game teaches how to play itself. It just does not! Nobody plays the tutorials anymore. And if you start on a new chapter you get dumped in that zone, because it's what you payed for. All the basics of the game and specifically its mechanics are very poorly taught.
The result is that people, that are not putting in an effort and time to understand and learn (that is what CASUAL means to me anyways), have no real chance to improve and hence stay bad. And because of how the game rewards and how easy it is overall some even get to be CP500 or higher until they notice: S***, I am really bad at this!
A small portion will be ignorant whatsoever. So why bother about it?
A few things overall here;
The first is that not a lot of us spend a lot of time in ESO, especially those of us who're post-CP 850 and have cleared every raid hardmode there is (aside from this new one because obvious bugs are obvious). We're able to compete with leaderboards, have PvP competitive builds, and have cleared every vet-dungeon including hardmodes and we can still be very casual. Casual just means that you frequent the game with irregularity or even play the game in a calm, relaxed manner. Both would describe how 'casual' groups are. Just because they're relaxed and are infrequent on their playtime scheduling doesn't indicate whether or not someone is 'bad' and 'don't want to get better'.
The second thing is that, true, the tutorial doesn't teach you much - there's not been very many titles of both MMO and single player games that can teach you how to be an expert in that game in a month. I remember a very specific streamer's ragequit in vICP, arguably one of the easiest vet DLC dungeons now (including clearing the four challenges for some folks on their first go at the dungeon and my DPS is pretty damn average compared to most). That's not him being a 'casual', that was him coming into this game and intending to be on an expert play-level within a week and those expectations shattering his ego.
The third thing is, yes, while it's very irritating to deal with someone who doesn't want to learn - you can't force advice and you can't coerce them or bully them into taking it. It doesn't work in game, it doesn't work on this forum. That's why this environment, compared to others, has started getting known for it's toxicity and 'hate' on players who just want to play the game in a relaxed environment. So much so that some are literally afraid to ask questions because of how the community acts. So if people expect players who are struggling to take their advice, they also need to eat some of that humble pie and actually see how they're engaging another member. Until you start treating inexperienced people, or just people in general, with dignity and respect? You're not going to teach them a thing other than that you're part of the problem.Edited by Sephyr on November 9, 2020 12:34PM4 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This game would die on its ass in no time without those casuals. Be thankful, not spiteful. Does that mean you won't get frustrated from time to time? No, but they're the only reason you and the rest of us are still playing the game.
Folk shouldn't need to visit 3rd party websites to learn how to play the game. The onus is on ZoS to help folk learn to play the game, not Alcast & Co. A job they've never done well since day one. They've tried to improve things, but it still ain't great.Edited by Prof_Bawbag on November 9, 2020 12:29PM3 -
nukk3r✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »people, that are not putting in an effort and time to understand and learn (that is what CASUAL means to me anyways),
Looks like we need to define what is "casual".
For example, I play every day, I have some semblance of builds on my characters, I enjoy figuring out mechanics, I can solo some group stuff and still I consider myself to be extremely casual. Because I have no real interest in hard modes, pushing my DPS, optimizing into unfun-ness or min-maxing my builds or any form of competitive play.
Yes, you're a textbook casual. But there are less self-aware players who try the hardest content and simply reject any help that isn't a carry. And this is a problem, some people want shinies from dungeons but refuse to accept the limitations set by the game.4 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭You are probably starting to see some of the consequences of making a game easier and “raising the floor.” When you give away BIS weapons in “normal” arenas, and alienate your long-time players, who then move on to other games, you will be left with a majority of players who have a limited skill level. It’s really as simple as that.2
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Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm a casual player too but I'm not the kind of person who refused to learn. I want to try endgame content but quoting the others here.too many elitist players in this MMO lately. makes it into a very unwelcoming place.
I know there are still some players in eso who's willing to teach. So, for now endgame content is out of reach for me.
A Lizard resident of Bangkorai PC Na
We do guild learning trials almost every Saturday night. Learning, FUN, no judgement, help for anyone who wants it with their spec/dps etc. Hit me up in game for a guild invite if this sounds like something you would be interested or apply to "Joob Nation"0 -
Grianasteri✭✭✭✭✭
✭While the OP does make some good observations, I disagree with a lot of what is covered.
I am not minded to write at length, for once, save to say the following;
- New players are the life blood of an MMO like ESO. We need them.
- Yes, ESO does a poor job of teaching or informing new players about key, important aspects of the game.
- Its not up to you, or anyone else, to dictate how anyone else plays ESO. Teach, don't kick or insult. Some will be willing and able to learn, others wont be, that's life.
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